KW Speaks about Buehrle's NTC

[The Beast]

Good luck signing any free agents if you're not going to give NTC. Between this policy and the Boras bulls***, it really makes you wonder how we'll ever get our talent level back up in today's market. I hope KW doesn't think he can build up from the farm system, as that could take like 5 years.

I am going to go to the game Tuesday and Wednesday, and make a big sign that says:

 

Buehrle (check)

Buehrle's Money (check)

NTC and Kenny's Brain (empty check box)

 

I am embarassed to have Kenny Williams as our GM. Honestly, I would just give Buehrle the No-trade clause and let those who want one go because you can build a good team easier with Garland, Danks and young pitching.

 

But hey, it'll be a long five years of rebuilding.

[Steff]

It's best just to ignore it.

Or don't. It's not that difficult, for most, to maintain a level of respect and maturity.

[fathom]

I am going to go to the game Tuesday and Wednesday, and make a big sign that says:

 

Buehrle (check)

Buehrle's Money (check)

NTC and Kenny's Brain (empty check box)

 

I am embarassed to have Kenny Williams as our GM. Honestly, I would just give Buehrle the No-trade clause and let those who want one go because you can build a good team easier with Garland, Danks and young pitching.

 

But hey, it'll be a long five years of rebuilding.

 

We're talking about a four year deal, not a ten year deal here. It's obvious that the Sox really don't want to keep Buehrle that much. Didn't they know he was going to ask for a NTC.

[SadChiSoxFanOptimist]

Did Kenny create the Sox policies prohibiting and purposely ignoring more talented, higher-upside prospects because they are represented by Scott Boras, or is he just adminstering them? And the NTC prohibitions?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most on this board that we can't sustain a winning with self-imposed, talent-limiting business policies.

 

If this is not true and Kenny has complete freedom to make these decisions (which I think is highly unlikely) then the issue then becomes why would any self-respecting GM choose to work with these handicaps?

 

So, project forward: If you're Rick Hahn (allegedly a very talented negotiatior and future MLB GM candidate), why stay?

 

And further, if you are qualified GM with a World Series on your resume, why accept the limitation when you might work elsewhere?,

 

Bottom line: This is just another Reinsorfism limiting our potential success.

 

2005 WAS a miracle!

[southsideirish71]

Did Kenny create the Sox policies prohibiting and purposely ignoring more talented, higher-upside prospects because they are represented by Scott Boras, or is he just adminstering them? And the NTC prohibitions?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most on this board that we can't sustain a winning with self-imposed, talent-limiting business policies.

 

If this is not true and Kenny has complete freedom to make these decisions (which I think is highly unlikely) then the issue then becomes why would any self-respecting GM choose to work with these handicaps?

 

So, project forward: If you're Rick Hahn (allegedly a very talented negotiatior and future MLB GM candidate), why stay?

 

And further, if you are qualified GM with a World Series on your resume, why accept the limitation when you might work elsewhere?,

 

Bottom line: This is just another Reinsorfism limiting our potential success.

 

2005 WAS a miracle!

 

 

That policy is going to serve us well with a possible top 5 pick. Its not like Boras has any of the top 5 talent locked up.

[whitesoxfan101]

People, we have a bad GM and this is another example of it. The 2005 season was not a fluke, but the fact our GM built such a good team that year considering the type of job he usually does WAS a fluke. Sad.

[SkokieSox]

However, it does seem like KW was trying to get Buehrle to sign a discounted deal only to trade him for more value before the deadline. If that is the case, and it comes out, no one will want to come to the Sox with KW here. I could also see every potential FA not resigning with the Sox for that same reason. This could really get ugly.

 

Not true, he was offering the same as Contreras, where next season he would have a NTC, but would transfer into a limited NTC beyond that. This deal would prevent KW from shipping him out next year. I agree with KW, this is a fair deal, and I don't want a precedant set where the Sox hands are tied.

 

Wonder if MB is the one who wants to be traded in the future??? Then the Sox have to trade him to the team he wants for a s***ty deal. I'm not on board to position the team this way, regardless of the pitcher. Sign him with the offer on the table or move him.

[Harry Chappas]

Not true, he was offering the same as Contreras, where next season he would have a NTC, but would transfer into a limited NTC beyond that. This deal would prevent KW from shipping him out next year. I agree with KW, this is a fair deal, and I don't want a precedant set where the Sox hands are tied.

 

Wonder if MB is the one who wants to be traded in the future??? Then the Sox have to trade him to the team he wants for a s***ty deal. I'm not on board to position the team this way, regardless of the pitcher. Sign him with the offer on the table or move him.

 

Thank you for posting this. KW can not sign and trade for the 900th time. Buerhle gets the same no trade clause as anyone else on this team. Look at the Contreras situation right now. What if he were pitching lights out and sould garner a great prospect or two right now and said he wouldn't waive it.

 

Please read and comprehend the article before discussing the no trade clause argument. The deal sounds like a fair deal for all parties on the surface.

[The Beast]

That policy is going to serve us well with a possible top 5 pick. Its not like Boras has any of the top 5 talent locked up.

Again, woo hoo. I'd rather have Buehrle than an unproven draft pick.

[quickman]

We're talking about a four year deal, not a ten year deal here. It's obvious that the Sox really don't want to keep Buehrle that much. Didn't they know he was going to ask for a NTC.

 

 

Fathom why so emotional? With the exception of this year the sox have been in contention for many years, they are usually one player short and its not necessarily the prime players. last year we won 90 games and we would have won the division if Buerhle was himself and andersen was slightly decent. We easily could have won 6 more games if not for those two underperformers alone. Once you get emotional about players every perspective gets lost except the emotion. Buerhle was going to get 14 million a year and a typical Buerhle season is about 14 or 15 wins. Thats a million dollars a win. I think that is pretty fair and who knows what the market will be later. Buehrle wants added security and the sox want a way out of the contract (via Trade) if they deem so at a particular time. I think thats fair as well. No team should be handcuffed. In fact I would argue the sox were handcuffed on contraras this year until he said he would waive his no trade to the mets. I am actually not siding with anyone but it seems that this contract with a limtied no trade clause is somewhere in the middle of what both wanted.

[southsideirish71]

Again, woo hoo. I'd rather have Buehrle than an unproven draft pick.

 

I would rather have Buerhle as well. I was talking about how our crappy record is going to net us a top pick, and the anti-boras factor is going to F us in the A.

[fathom]

Again, woo hoo. I'd rather have Buehrle than an unproven draft pick.

 

No, what he's saying is that we're going to have a very high pick in next year's draft, Buehrle or no Buehrle.

[Steff]

Thanks for the advice....

 

*Can't find those damn rolleyes...*

 

I did say for most. You are excused.

[fathom]

Fathom why so emotional? With the exception of this year the sox have been in contention for many years, they are usually one player short and its not necessarily the prime players. last year we won 90 games and we would have won the division if Buerhle was himself and andersen was slightly decent. We easily could have won 6 more games if not for those two underperformers alone. Once you get emotional about players every perspective gets lost except the emotion. Buerhle was going to get 14 million a year and a typical Buerhle season is about 14 or 15 wins. Thats a million dollars a win. I think that is pretty fair and who knows what the market will be later. Buehrle wants added security and the sox want a way out of the contract (via Trade) if they deem so at a particular time. I think thats fair as well. No team should be handcuffed. In fact I would argue the sox were handcuffed on contraras this year until he said he would waive his no trade to the mets. I am actually not siding with anyone but it seems that this contract with a limtied no trade clause is somewhere in the middle of what both wanted.

 

In reality, it's not about Buehrle. I'm just puzzled as to how we can legitimately build a playoff contender without giving out NTC to our free agents, not getting into biddiing wars for top free agents, not going after Boras clients, and not going after draft picks well above slot money. I'm also not looking forward to seeing Vazquez and Contreras be our 1-2 pitchers.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fathom why so emotional? With the exception of this year the sox have been in contention for many years, they are usually one player short and its not necessarily the prime players. last year we won 90 games and we would have won the division if Buerhle was himself and andersen was slightly decent. We easily could have won 6 more games if not for those two underperformers alone. Once you get emotional about players every perspective gets lost except the emotion. Buerhle was going to get 14 million a year and a typical Buerhle season is about 14 or 15 wins. Thats a million dollars a win. I think that is pretty fair and who knows what the market will be later. Buehrle wants added security and the sox want a way out of the contract (via Trade) if they deem so at a particular time. I think thats fair as well. No team should be handcuffed. In fact I would argue the sox were handcuffed on contraras this year until he said he would waive his no trade to the mets. I am actually not siding with anyone but it seems that this contract with a limtied no trade clause is somewhere in the middle of what both wanted.

 

Could very well be the best post in this thread, cant say it much better, nicely done.

[Steff]

Fathom why so emotional? With the exception of this year the sox have been in contention for many years, they are usually one player short and its not necessarily the prime players. last year we won 90 games and we would have won the division if Buerhle was himself and andersen was slightly decent. We easily could have won 6 more games if not for those two underperformers alone. Once you get emotional about players every perspective gets lost except the emotion. Buerhle was going to get 14 million a year and a typical Buerhle season is about 14 or 15 wins. Thats a million dollars a win. I think that is pretty fair and who knows what the market will be later. Buehrle wants added security and the sox want a way out of the contract (via Trade) if they deem so at a particular time. I think thats fair as well. No team should be handcuffed. In fact I would argue the sox were handcuffed on contraras this year until he said he would waive his no trade to the mets. I am actually not siding with anyone but it seems that this contract with a limtied no trade clause is somewhere in the middle of what both wanted.

 

 

Excellent post TQ.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In reality, it's not about Buehrle. I'm just puzzled as to how we can legitimately build a playoff contender without giving out NTC to our free agents, not getting into biddiing wars for top free agents, not going after Boras clients, and not going after draft picks well above slot money. I'm also not looking forward to seeing Vazquez and Contreras be our 1-2 pitchers.

 

So basically, give the players whatever they want. Not sure that works too well in the long run, or the short run for that matter.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

No, the Sox have one more way to get talent: cheap free agents undervalued because injury, etc. Seriously, the thing that is most depressing about the Sox is that they have so limited the way they can acquire talent. I don't know of any other team that does this or is so risk-averse. No Boras clients (draft or FA), no arb offers to FAs that might bring extra picks or could be accepted, no drafting hard signs or players demanding more than slot money, no big FAs signed at "crazy" market price, no pitchers signed longer than 3 years, no keeping guys by giving put NTC for full contract, no keeping guys whose 5/10 rights kick in.

 

The Sox are counting on brilliant FA signings and a strong minor league system. And this year that strategy has given the Sox Erstad and Andy Gonzalez. The future isn't bright.

 

Great post. Just another way of saying the Sox are cheap and really for the history of the franchise have always been cheap. Its that frugality that created the Black Sox scandal and got us 1 championship in 90 years. I know others will site how much the payroll is but really if 4 yrs 56 mill. is all he wants to stay we get him at the prime of his career at money and yrs. way less then market value. If Williams can't get this done then anything he says when he trades MB will just be spin control which is a nice way of saying utter and total BS.

[quickman]

In reality, it's not about Buehrle. I'm just puzzled as to how we can legitimately build a playoff contender without giving out NTC to our free agents, not getting into biddiing wars for top free agents, not going after Boras clients, and not going after draft picks well above slot money. I'm also not looking forward to seeing Vazquez and Contreras be our 1-2 pitchers.

 

 

Well when did we do that in the past with free agents. Thats not how we ever built teams. Nothing has changed except your expectations. The players want money first, that brings their security blanket. next there wives get involved because they don't want to move and they want to live in there own house. Quite frankly if Buehrle wasn't married or his wife pregnant right now it wouldn't mean a damn thing. So this enters another dimension. Buehrle is asking for the clause, thats the right thing to do for his family. The sox countered with a limited clause, and they have very good and sound reasons for that. If they can't agree then its over. Good negotiation, good asks and good money. KW then should be judged on what he gets back. Sorry even Roger clemons bounced from team to team, same with maddox. Take emotion out of it.

Edited July 1, 2007 by quickman

[fathom]

So basically, give the players whatever they want. Not sure that works too well in the long run, or the short run for that matter.

 

Nope, but you have to keep talent on your team once in a while. This Buehrle situation guarantees that Garland will be gone sooner than later also.

[Steff]

Well when did we do that in the past with free agents. Thats not how we every built teams. Nothign has changed except your expectations. The players want money first, that brings their security blanket. next there wives get involved because they don't want to move and they want to live in there own house. Quite frankly if Buehrle wasn't married or his wife pregnant right now it wouldn't mean a damn thing. So this enters another dimension. Buehrle is askign for the clause, thats the right thing to do for his family. The sox countered with a limited clause, and they have very good and sound reasons for that. If they can't agree then its over. Good negotiation, good asks and good money. KW then should be judged on what he gets back. Sorry even Roger clemons bounced from team to team, same with maddox. Take emotion out of it.

 

 

I think this and your previous post should be stuck at the top and be required reading before any further posting on this topic can be made.

[fathom]

Well when did we do that in the past with free agents. Thats not how we every built teams. Nothign has changed except your expectations. The players want money first, that brings their security blanket. next there wives get involved because they don't want to move and they want to live in there own house. Quite frankly if Buehrle wasn't married or his wife pregnant right now it wouldn't mean a damn thing. So this enters another dimension. Buehrle is askign for the clause, thats the right thing to do for his family. The sox countered with a limited clause, and they have very good and sound reasons for that. If they can't agree then its over. Good negotiation, good asks and good money. KW then should be judged on what he gets back. Sorry even Roger clemons bounced from team to team, same with maddox. Take emotion out of it.

 

Agreed, but then KW needs to give the trading partner the 72 hour negotiating window so that we can get more in return. This last week proved that there's no chance we'll re-sign Buehrle this offseason, so you might as well capitalize on the situation and get the best package possible. I'm concerned that we're already hearing rumors that teams aren't willing to meet our demands, etc.

[quickman]

Nope, but you have to keep talent on your team once in a while. This Buehrle situation guarantees that Garland will be gone sooner than later also.

 

 

Thats right and if buerhle doesn't sign thats why i would begin trading garland right now or at the winter meetings. Now your rebuilding.

[fathom]

Thats right and if buerhle doesn't sign thats why i would begin trading garland right now or at the winter meetings. Now your rebuilding.

 

But if you trade those guys, you better be trading Contreras, Thome, etc.

[quickman]

Agreed, but then KW needs to give the trading partner the 72 hour negotiating window so that we can get more in return. This last week proved that there's no chance we'll re-sign Buehrle this offseason, so you might as well capitalize on the situation and get the best package possible. I'm concerned that we're already hearing rumors that teams aren't willing to meet our demands, etc.

 

No what he needs to do is figure out if he is getting enough in return or if he should let it ride and take the two picks. Thats all. Thats the only question and that may take a while to figure out.