KW Speaks about Buehrle's NTC

[South Side Fireworks Man]

The Sox should give him his NTC for the rest of this year and next two at $14M per year, then give him market value ($19M) for the year he has no NTC, then back down to $14M for the year he becomes a 5/10 player.

 

So in essence it would be a $61M/4yr contract. That way the Sox maintain the integrity of their "no full NTC policy" and Mark gets no-trade protection for the years he's giving a home-town discount. If an extra $5M over four years isn't worth it to JR to keep Buehrle around, then he doesn't really want to be fair to Buehrle anyway.

Edited July 1, 2007 by South Side Fireworks Man

[fathom]

No what he needs to do is figure out if he is getting enough in return or if he should let it ride and take the two picks. Thats all. Thats the only question and that may take a while to figure out.

 

Here's the thing...unless we open up the checkbook for the draft next year, all these possibly supplementary picks we'll have will be useless. We'll have to spend most of the budget on the first pick.

[elrockinMT]

A key comment I picked up from Kenny Williams is "I can't build a championship team if I give Mark Buerhle a no trade contract." Well, I don't think you build a championship team by trading your best pitcher and team leader either. I think you build a winning team by starting with quality pitching. Buerhle is 28 years old and has been a durable work horse of a pitcher and is a winner. If you try and lump every player and their contract into what manahement thinks is necessary to not show favortism and also keep their finger on the I am the Boss button then they are bound for failure. MB deserves a NTC and the Sox fans deserve it and the team deserves it and understands it IMO. We need to keep our excellent starting pitching in place and buyild in the areas that need to be upgraded. Let Mark go and you weaken one area and maybe strengthen another-MAYBE. The track record is not that good. I hope this works out for the Sox, Buerhle and the fans.

[quickman]

But if you trade those guys, you better be trading Contreras, Thome, etc.

 

 

Most likely, you see I really don't care about any of these guys unless they win. they are not winning now so figure out who stays and who goes. Who is old and who is part of the rebuilding. There are alot of questions. The thing that makes it worse is we have a lousy and I mean lousy farm system, with possibly only one player ready to make the jump. Thats the real problem. If anderson and sweeney were actaully any good and there was a pitcher or two that could make the jump with an ERA under 4 then we can move on. So, its very delicate right now. These next three days will tell the whitesox and the fans which way this team will rebuild.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's the thing...unless we open up the checkbook for the draft next year, all these possibly supplementary picks we'll have will be useless. We'll have to spend most of the budget on the first pick.

 

When don't they sign their high draft picks? They always do. Go back to Bobby Hill and Weaver and Seay, those are prob. the last ones.

[quickman]

Here's the thing...unless we open up the checkbook for the draft next year, all these possibly supplementary picks we'll have will be useless. We'll have to spend most of the budget on the first pick.

 

well you can spend most of the budget if you decide to go young. Let dye go, let iguchi go, trade crede, Trade garland, trade contraras. Now you have lots of money. Like I said, the next three days will decide which way the sox will go. Complete rebuild or piece meal. I think it starts and ends with this Buehrle thing.

[fathom]

Most likely, you see I really don't care about any of these guys unless they win. they are not winning now so figure out who stays and who goes. Who is old and who is part of the rebuilding. There are alot of questions. The thing that makes it worse is we have a lousy and I mean lousy farm system, with possibly only one player ready to make the jump. Thats the real problem. If anderson and sweeney were actaully any good and there was a pitcher or two that could make the jump with an ERA under 4 then we can move on. So, its very delicate right now. These next three days will tell the whitesox and the fans which way this team will rebuild.

 

Blow the whole thing up. The division is too good over the next few years to try and compete and rebuild. It was my number 1 complaint about KW last offseason. He thought he could do both, and obviously failed miserably at helping the team on the field.

 

Here's the question I have: how often do players actually decline a trade due to having a NTC? The Phil Nevin/Griffey Jr. trade is one of the few I can remember that fell through.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No what he needs to do is figure out if he is getting enough in return or if he should let it ride and take the two picks. Thats all. Thats the only question and that may take a while to figure out.

 

Yes. He doesn't have to trade MB by Wed. Situations change, other teams may suddenly have needs to fill.

[quickman]

When don't they sign their high draft picks? They always do. Go back to Bobby Hill and Weaver and Seay, those are prob. the last ones.

 

Not to mention they overpaid dearly for borchard.

 

Yes. He doesn't have to trade MB by Wed. Situations change, other teams may suddenly have needs to fill.

 

 

right!

[fathom]

When don't they sign their high draft picks? They always do. Go back to Bobby Hill and Weaver and Seay, those are prob. the last ones.

 

We haven't had a super high pick though in a long time. Those top picks require a good amount of money. If you don't trade Dye and Buehrle, then you're going to have 4 more sandwich picks that all would require a significant signing bonus to bring into the organization.

 

Yes. He doesn't have to trade MB by Wed. Situations change, other teams may suddenly have needs to fill.

 

Mets and Dodgers are really hurting for pitchers now. I agree we should wait a few weeks, but this whole issue going to the press might make it harder. Even Ozzie is saying he's sick of it.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope, but you have to keep talent on your team once in a while. This Buehrle situation guarantees that Garland will be gone sooner than later also.

 

So, keep them on your team by giving them everything they want. No trade clauses have interesting ways of handcuffing what can and can't be done to a team. Things change, its best to stay flexible. As for Garland, it guarantees squat. Garland was practically guaranteed to not sign an extension, Garland was practically guaranteed to be traded etc. if you believe the media reports. Which is a lot of what this situation is, media reports. I posted on another thread to wait and see what happens in this situation before jumping to conclusions and I still believe that is good advice.

 

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We haven't had a super high pick though in a long time. Those top picks require a good amount of money. If you don't trade Dye and Buehrle, then you're going to have 4 more sandwich picks that all would require a significant signing bonus to bring into the organization.

 

It hasn't been an issue for years, it won't be an issue for the next draft. Another reason to stay flexible, the budget may need more $$ for the draft. You are worrying about nothing with this. Now if they start drafting Boras clients then I am worried right along with you.

[dagotony06]

Well when did we do that in the past with free agents. Thats not how we ever built teams. Nothing has changed except your expectations. The players want money first, that brings their security blanket. next there wives get involved because they don't want to move and they want to live in there own house. Quite frankly if Buehrle wasn't married or his wife pregnant right now it wouldn't mean a damn thing. So this enters another dimension. Buehrle is asking for the clause, thats the right thing to do for his family. The sox countered with a limited clause, and they have very good and sound reasons for that. If they can't agree then its over. Good negotiation, good asks and good money. KW then should be judged on what he gets back. Sorry even Roger clemons bounced from team to team, same with maddox. Take emotion out of it.

Well I believe we have to change the way we do business. In this division where other teams are willing to spend money and go after Boras clients we have to change the way business is done on the South Side. Besides 2005, which was a great year, what has KW ever won? He put that team together and no one and I mean no one expexted them to do what they did. What was the main thing they had that got them to the top?? STARTING PITCHING!! The same thing KW always preaches about. But now you are gonna let your ACE walk, and that's what he is and ACE, who is accepting a 4 year deal for 14 mil. a year, way below what he could get on the open market, because you refuse to give him a full NTC. That is complete bulls***, and the guy should be fired immediately. It's simple you reward the players who have been there for you, especially if they are giving you a discount to stay here. He says he's worried about furture players coming here and wanting the same thing. If the player is worth it and is taking a discount to come here, then you give them one. It's part of the business. The way business is done by JR and KW has to change. I don't want to hear about what we can't do. We are in the 3rd largest market in the U.S. Start acting like it, and give this guy his NTC if that's the only thing holding this up. Swallow your pride KW, cause we all know that's hard for him to do and sign this guy, and build around him and JG. It's the right move in my eyes.

[quickman]

We haven't had a super high pick though in a long time. Those top picks require a good amount of money. If you don't trade Dye and Buehrle, then you're going to have 4 more sandwich picks that all would require a significant signing bonus to bring into the organization.

Mets and Dodgers are really hurting for pitchers now. I agree we should wait a few weeks, but this whole issue going to the press might make it harder. Even Ozzie is saying he's sick of it.

 

 

Which is why they most likely will try to trade one of them. If they sign Buehrle then your problem is solved. if they don't I suppose they will trade him because teams will over pay for pitching now especially after seeing what he would be willing to accept. fathom i really don't think this is such a big deal. the whitesox are at the bottom of the league right now with the 3rd or 4th highest payroll in the A league.

[Dick Allen]

I still have a hard time believing the NTC was something that suddenly popped up at the end of the negotiation. I really think its something that is being used to make both sides look good. Buerhle looks good because he's willing to accept a big discount in exchange for it, and the White Sox look good, because when Buerhle goes away, the issue isn't money. I personally think the White Sox and Buerhle's agent played Joe Cowley and whoever is the Score's informant like a fiddle and nothing serious went on this past week. I think it all was spin preparing for Buerhle's departure.

 

So, keep them on your team by giving them everything they want. No trade clauses have interesting ways of handcuffing what can and can't be done to a team. Things change, its best to stay flexible. As for Garland, it guarantees squat. Garland was practically guaranteed to not sign an extension, Garland was practically guaranteed to be traded etc. if you believe the media reports. Which is a lot of what this situation is, media reports. I posted on another thread to wait and see what happens in this situation before jumping to conclusions and I still believe that is good advice.

It hasn't been an issue for years, it won't be an issue for the next draft. Another reason to stay flexible, the budget may need more $$ for the draft. You are worrying about nothing with this. Now if they start drafting Boras clients then I am worried right along with you.

Screw sandwich picks. They cost a lot, and with the White Sox recent history, chances are they will be very mediocre selections.

[dagotony06]

Fathom why so emotional? With the exception of this year the sox have been in contention for many years, they are usually one player short and its not necessarily the prime players. last year we won 90 games and we would have won the division if Buerhle was himself and andersen was slightly decent. We easily could have won 6 more games if not for those two underperformers alone. Once you get emotional about players every perspective gets lost except the emotion. Buerhle was going to get 14 million a year and a typical Buerhle season is about 14 or 15 wins. Thats a million dollars a win. I think that is pretty fair and who knows what the market will be later. Buehrle wants added security and the sox want a way out of the contract (via Trade) if they deem so at a particular time. I think thats fair as well. No team should be handcuffed. In fact I would argue the sox were handcuffed on contraras this year until he said he would waive his no trade to the mets. I am actually not siding with anyone but it seems that this contract with a limtied no trade clause is somewhere in the middle of what both wanted.

Besides 2005, what exactly has KW won?? 2005 was great, but just being in contention the other years he has been GM doesn't do it for me. I can see blaming Anderson for last year, becuase he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, but that's KW fault for having him start in CF in the first place. He should have had a veteran CF as a back-up, and not Mack who Ozzie continued to put in CF, and lost us more than a couple games. So to blame Buerhle for us not making the playoffs last year is ridiculous in my eyes. The guy had a bad 2nd half, s*** like that happens. But last year falls on KW and Ozzie. As for the contract being fair. The Whitesox are getting a huge bargain if they sign Buerhle to 14 mil. a year. You make it sound like 14-15 wins a year is easy. Who are you gonna bring in every year and pretty much pencil 14-15 wins a year. No One that's who. Ted Lilly got 11 mil, and he is a .500 pitcher. Buerhle is light years better than him and will command a much bigger contract than what the Sox have offered and he has agreed to. It's a steal. Give the guy his no trade clause and be done with it. As for being handcuffed by the contract, Jose has a NTC and agreed to waive it. Most cases where a guy has a NTC and a team asks whether he would waive it, the player usually agrees to. So I don't buy the whole it handcuffs an ORG. Why would you want to trade a guy like Buerhle anyway. You build around guys like that, you don't trade them away. KW didn't have much credibilty in my eyes to begin with, now with all this fiasco, I'm finished with him.

Edited July 1, 2007 by diegotony06

[The Ginger Kid]

Here's what I don't get:

 

If Buehrle is dealt, we're still going to need a starter for 2008, because no one down on the farm is ready for the majors...that is, unless the Sox are going into total re-build mode and not looking to compete for a championship. In which case we can all watch the lkes of Floyd/Gio/Russell take their lumps and the Sox look more and more like one century wonders.

[Kalapse]

Here's what I don't get:

 

If Buehrle is dealt, we're still going to need a starter for 2008, because no one down on the farm is ready for the majors...that is, unless the Sox are going into total re-build mode and not looking to compete for a championship. In which case we can all watch the lkes of Floyd/Gio/Russell take their lumps and the Sox look more and more like one century wonders.

Gavin Floyd is about as ready for the majors now as he'll ever be (3.07 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, .249 BAA, 74:25 K:BB, INT League All-Star), I have no problem with Floyd taking a rotation spot when one of Buehrle or Contreras is dealt.

 

And just as a side note, at this point in time I don't even consider Adam Russell a legitimate prospect. A 4.48 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, .275 BAA and a 68:39 K:BB in his second go round in AAA as a 24 year old while making a pitcher's park his home? Terrible.

[BlackBetsy]

I don't quite get what the hubbub is here. Kenny did offer Buehrle a no-trade clause. He can't be traded in 2008, has limited no-trade rights in 2009-10 and then in 2011 WHEN HE GETS CBA NO-TRADE CLAUSE RIGHTS, his Sox no-trade clause goes away. That it's the same limited no-trade clause that Garland and Konerko and Contreras signed makes it seem like Buehrle is the one being aggressive here.

 

Now, if it doesn't give him no-trade rights for 2007, that would be weird on KW's part. The new contract should DEFINITELY add no trade rights for the rest of this year. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

 

If this is what Buehrle is holding out for, and he knows KW won't give it to him, then it's just Buehrle trying to make an issue.

[quickman]

Besides 2005, what exactly has KW won?? 2005 was great, but just being in contention the other years he has been GM doesn't do it for me. I can see blaming Anderson for last year, becuase he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, but that's KW fault for having him start in CF in the first place. He should have had a veteran CF as a back-up, and not Mack who Ozzie continued to put in CF, and lost us more than a couple games. So to blame Buerhle for us not making the playoffs last year is ridiculous in my eyes. The guy had a bad 2nd half, s*** like that happens. But last year falls on KW and Ozzie. As for the contract being fair. The Whitesox are getting a huge bargain if they sign Buerhle to 14 mil. a year. You make it sound like 14-15 wins a year is easy. Who are you gonna bring in every year and pretty much pencil 14-15 wins a year. No One that's who. Ted Lilly got 11 mil, and he is a .500 pitcher. Buerhle is light years better than him and will command a much bigger contract than what the Sox have offered and he has agreed to. It's a steal. Give the guy his no trade clause and be done with it. As for being handcuffed by the contract, Jose has a NTC and agreed to waive it. Most cases where a guy has a NTC and a team asks whether he would waive it, the player usually agrees to. So I don't buy the whole it handcuffs an ORG. Why would you want to trade a guy like Buerhle anyway. You build around guys like that, you don't trade them away. KW didn't have much credibilty in my eyes to begin with, now with all this fiasco, I'm finished with him.

 

 

again i could care less about these players. I no longer get emotional about players, they are a complete waste of my time. I do though want a team that plays hard, is entertaining and has a shot at the playoffs. Right now this team has spent 100 million and plays like pansies. Time for change if that means buerhle because his contract is up then so be it, KW will be judged on how much and how well these players come to be after trading away talent. Other than that, I think 1 million dollars a win is plenty for these players. Buehrle most likely will not be any better than what he is. He is no ace, and he has proven he won't win 20 games in a year very often. I would like to have him but more importantly as a season ticket holder I would like to see KW's direction right now. Thats more important to me when evaluating if I will be spending my money next year. And by the way my money is much more important to me than Buerhles money.

[iamshack]

I don't quite get what the hubbub is here. Kenny did offer Buehrle a no-trade clause. He can't be traded in 2008, has limited no-trade rights in 2009-10 and then in 2011 WHEN HE GETS CBA NO-TRADE CLAUSE RIGHTS, his Sox no-trade clause goes away. That it's the same limited no-trade clause that Garland and Konerko and Contreras signed makes it seem like Buehrle is the one being aggressive here.

 

Now, if it doesn't give him no-trade rights for 2007, that would be weird on KW's part. The new contract should DEFINITELY add no trade rights for the rest of this year. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

 

If this is what Buehrle is holding out for, and he knows KW won't give it to him, then it's just Buehrle trying to make an issue.

 

You can't add no-trade protection in the middle of a current contract. He couldn't of given him no trade protection this season unless Mark would've signed an extension this past offseason and he and the Sox would have voided the 07' option year.

[GreatScott82]

I think deep down KW knows he needs to get this done. Losing Buerhle could be a PR and fanbase loss nightmare. Look how the sCrUBs faired when they lost Maddux after giving him a low blow offer. Granite we already won 1 world series w/ Buerhle, im sure KW wants a couple more. I mean come on, Contreras said he would waive his NTC, that opens up pleanty of cash to go out and sign some free agents. The way Floyd is pitching, we have already set our 2008 rotation as long as KW freaking re-signs Buerhle. (Buerhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, Floyd)

 

IF this doesn't get done... KW just might lose his job within the next year or 2 as this just may be his biggest bone-headed mistake ever.

 

Give him the NTC DARN IT!

[WCSox]

However, it does seem like KW was trying to get Buehrle to sign a discounted deal only to trade him for more value before the deadline.

 

Given that one-year NTCs are pretty much standard for veteran pitchers to avoid such scenarios, I doubt it.

 

What I think is giong on is that KW made clear to Mark and his agent that they didn't really want to re-sign him. Mark's alleged acceptance of a well-below-market-value 4/56 offer and Mark's demand for an indefinite NTC seem a lot more like political posturing than reality. I'll believe 4/56 AFTER I see what Mark actually signs this winter.

 

I'm really surprised at the reaction to this. Again, when was the last time that this ownership group gave the go-ahead to sign a veteran pitcher with 1,200+ innings on his arm to a four- or five-year deal at $50+ million? Have you guys been living under a rock for the past 20+ years?

[klaus kinski]

Well they didnt have to give 5 years-so they found another way out of paying.

 

These guys are slime. No one can defend this.

 

Williams is an arrogant puppet I never want to hear him say "build a championship" again.

 

Better yet, I dont want to see or hear him again.

 

This is Reinsdorf retirement fund economics at its best

[WCSox]

I still have a hard time believing the NTC was something that suddenly popped up at the end of the negotiation. I really think its something that is being used to make both sides look good. Buerhle looks good because he's willing to accept a big discount in exchange for it, and the White Sox look good, because when Buerhle goes away, the issue isn't money. I personally think the White Sox and Buerhle's agent played Joe Cowley and whoever is the Score's informant like a fiddle and nothing serious went on this past week. I think it all was spin preparing for Buerhle's departure.

 

 

Thank you. Somebody else gets it!

[Kalapse]

Given that one-year NTCs are pretty much standard for veteran pitchers to avoid such scenarios, I doubt it.

He'd have no kind of trade protection for the rest of the 2007 season. Any NTC he receives in an extension would kick in at the beginning of '08.