KW Speaks about Buehrle's NTC

[dagotony06]

No, a loser's mentality is being excited about making the playoffs and not winning a single playoff series. As a Colts fan, I can tell you that it gets old very quickly.

You're right. He absolutely blew it when he failed to trade for Johan Santana and Chris Carpenter. What in the hell was he supposed to do when his best two starting pitchers weren't performing???

The Bills appeared in four straight Super Bowls and nobody considered them a marquee franchise.

I wouldn't say that. They blew us away in the '90s, but they haven't done squat since then.

A losers mentality to you is making the playoffs and not winning a game?? So not making the playoffs and being happy that you won 90 games though isn't a losers mentality?? You lost me bro. You totally lost me. At the beginning of the season the goal is to win a Championship. If you ask a player how you do that, he will tell you, we have to get in the playoffs first, and then see what happens. Sort of like we did in 2005. So taking what you say, if we would have choked away the division in 05 and not made the playoffs, we still would have been winners, but if we would have made the playoffs and lost you would have preferred that?? WOW!!! I don't get that at all.

 

I never said KW blew it by not trading for the guys you mentioned, I'm not even gonna comment on that, because it is ridiculous what you said. I'm saying he needed to add a bat!! If you ask anyone the will tell you KW failed this team at the deadline last year.

 

The Bills were a marquee franchise, and for you to say they weren't is silly. They got to the big game, just cause they didn't win it they still had a great franchise. But I'm a Steeler fan anyway, so I could care less about Buffalo or any other NFL team.

 

The Braves have been a model of consistency. Other Org. use their team and Org as a blueprint. Even the great KW admitted to doing that.

[dagotony06]

Absolutely. NO team is going to carry three future-HOF pitchers in their 10 most productive years at the same time these days. It's financially impossible.

How can you say that??? I'm not saying Buerhle and Garland are future hall of famers. If they keep winning and putting up numbers for the next 8-10 years I believe they could be considered future HOF'ers. Buerhle is giving this team a discount to stay here, and I am sure JG would do the same, so for you to say that, how do you base what you are saying. It's not impossible, the guy is settling for alot less money because he wants to stay here, but our GM won't give the guy a NTC. I don't understand why you would ever want to trade the guy anyway. It just blows my mind!! But he will give a 3 year extension to a 35 or 45 year old man in JC and give him a NTC for this year in his contract, and another 3 year extension to a guy who flip flops between being good and horrible more than Mitt Romney does on political issues.

[RibbieRubarb]

A losers mentality to you is making the playoffs and not winning a game?? So not making the playoffs and being happy that you won 90 games though isn't a losers mentality?? You lost me bro. You totally lost me. At the beginning of the season the goal is to win a Championship. If you ask a player how you do that, he will tell you, we have to get in the playoffs first, and then see what happens. Sort of like we did in 2005. So taking what you say, if we would have choked away the division in 05 and not made the playoffs, we still would have been winners, but if we would have made the playoffs and lost you would have preferred that?? WOW!!! I don't get that at all.

 

You say the Championship is the main goal???

But, in another thread you said several GMs were better than Kenny even though they never won a World Series.

Which is it?

 

[RockRaines]

f*** you Kenny Williams. You should lose your job, for christ's sake. You are one of the worst managers ever! You can't go out of your norm one time for a once in a generation type of pitcher? Go to hell. I am sick of your stupid ass bulls***.

Worst managers ever huh? If he was a manager I would say that maybe. He has actually been one of the best GM's around for a few years now.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, want to know why it was worse? Because Jon had to learn how to get out of his own jams instead of leaving in the 4th and 5th inning everytime he got himself in any trouble. We are seeing the results of the learning process now, aren't we?

 

Manual had to lift him to win games, but Ozzie didn't?

 

I understand part of Jon's success as a pitcher came as a result of his natural progression and maturation. I also have seen a crapload of pitchers never take that step, so to assume it was going to happen regardless or automatically is a bit of a leap if you ask me.

 

I give a lot of credit to Ozzie for Jon's success, and I don't think it is entirely coincidental that Jon has become the pitcher he has under Ozzie.

Garland averaged about half an inning more a start under Ozzie than he did under Manuel and then suddenly in 2005 he cut his walk rate almost in half. He figured out how to pitch. Give Ozzie the credit if you will, I will give it to Garland. If Manuel was so bad, how do you give KW a pass on giving him a contract extension? I do think Manuel's time was up when he was canned but I think he was decent. I have a higher opinion of him than the Hawkeroo.

[iamshack]

Garland averaged about half an inning more a start under Ozzie than he did under Manuel and then suddenly in 2005 he cut his walk rate almost in half. He figured out how to pitch. Give Ozzie the credit if you will, I will give it to Garland. If Manuel was so bad, how do you give KW a pass on giving him a contract extension? I do think Manuel's time was up when he was canned but I think he was decent. I have a higher opinion of him than the Hawkeroo.

 

He gave him an extension because he was manager of the year in 00' and he won a division. He really had no other choice. I also like Jerry more than most, I even defended the infamous "Neal Cotts" start in New York. But his handling of Jon Garland, IMO, was poor.

 

I'm not sure if you believe Ozzie's opinion about Jon came from Hawk or not, but even Ozzie stressed that he had to give Jon the chances to work through his own struggles, and he did so. Don't get me wrong- I don't think Jon was a crap pitcher under Jerry- but I don't think there is much of a chance Jon would have matured into the guy he is now if Jerry had continued to be manager of this team.

[WCSox]

So taking what you say, if we would have choked away the division in 05 and not made the playoffs, we still would have been winners, but if we would have made the playoffs and lost you would have preferred that?? WOW!!! I don't get that at all.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. You need a new pair of reading glasses.

 

I never said KW blew it by not trading for the guys you mentioned, I'm not even gonna comment on that, because it is ridiculous what you said. I'm saying he needed to add a bat!!

 

Oh, and adding A BAT would solve Mark and Jose's pitching problems. Great solution!

 

The Bills were a marquee franchise, and for you to say they weren't is silly. They got to the big game, just cause they didn't win it they still had a great franchise.

 

The Bills were laughed at and called chokes, just like the Colts were prior to February.

 

How can you say that??? I'm not saying Buerhle and Garland are future hall of famers. If they keep winning and putting up numbers for the next 8-10 years I believe they could be considered future HOF'ers.

 

Mark and Jon will cost somewhere between $120-150 million in guaranteed money. That isn't going to happen here, nor should it.

 

Buerhle is giving this team a discount to stay here, and I am sure JG would do the same

 

Edited July 2, 2007 by WCSox

[dagotony06]

You say the Championship is the main goal???

But, in another thread you said several GMs were better than Kenny even though they never won a World Series.

Which is it?

 

Obviously at the beginning of the season it's every teams goal to win the world series. Obviously only one can. I believe that a GM should be based upon not just winning games but winning divisions and playoff appearances. Just because KW won a World series doesn't make him a good Gm. He has won 1 year in the 7 he has been here. Sure that one has resulted in the first World series Championship in 88 years for the city, blah blah blah. I'm saying I don't believe KW is a smart GM. I don't think he is a great GM by any means. I think this Buerhle fiasco has shown that. He preaches to the fans about wanting to win and sustatin it, but yet he is gonna trade away a guy becasue he refuses to give him a NTC, after the guy gives you a huge hometown discount. And JG will be traded most likely after that. So to me he is a liar. You listen to any knowlegable baseball fan and they will tell you, you lock up good starting pitching, that's where it all starts. And he refuses to do that. But yet he will give JC a 3 year deal with the 1st year a NTC. Where is the logic in that?? So I believe there are many GMs out there that are head and shoulders above KW that haven't won a world series, Terry Ryan from the Twins being one, Dombrowski being another.

[RockRaines]

Ozzie had a ton to do with the maturation of Jon Garland. Even Jon will say so. Any other opinion is really a huge stretch.

[TitoMB345]

Worst managers ever huh? If he was a manager I would say that maybe. He has actually been one of the best GM's around for a few years now.

Whats the M in GM stand for? Oh right, manager.

[michelangelosmonkey]

For all you guys bashing Kenny Williams...you must not be old enough to have been a Sox fan in the '70's and '80's. Every year under KW we have had a chance and one time we won the WS....there are 30 teams trying for the WS...which means all things equal we should win once a generation. I respect your greed but...my dad waited 80 years for his first. I think we should be patient waiting for the second to develop. But god bless Kenny because I think he's NOT patient to wait and I think I see what he's doing. Having two dominant power pitchers leads to WS wins...Pedro/Schilling, Johnson/Schilling, Clemens/Cone (twice), Cone-Wells, Brown-Fernandez, and by the way...Santana and Liriano would have won it for the Twins last year if not the injury, same with Wood-Prior. So the Sox have Buehrle...a very good lefty...Glavine-esque. And Garland another non-strikeout guy that is great on a team with good offense/defense...but there is little history of two non-strikeout pitchers leading a team to the WS. When Sox won it was Contreas that was clearly the ace...and Garcia was a strikeout guy too. If I'm KW I don't try to emulate Atlanta with the long stretch of pennants...but try to find the formula to win the next WS. Vazquez, Danks, Floyd, Gio, De Los Santos, the lefty they drafted #1...he's trying to get us in a position to have the next Clemens/Cone. If he has to use Buehrle and/or Garland to get us that true dominant ace? Let's give it a shot.

[dagotony06]

No, that's not what I'm saying. You need a new pair of reading glasses.

Oh, and adding A BAT would solve Mark and Jose's pitching problems. Great solution!

The Bills were laughed at and called chokes, just like the Colts were prior to February.

Mark and Jon will cost somewhere between $120-150 million in guaranteed money. That isn't going to happen here, nor should it.

 

You are the one drinking the Kenny Williams Kool aid!!! Watch how he trades away MB and JG and buries this franchise. He's already done that with the farm system.

[Dick Allen]

Ozzie had a ton to do with the maturation of Jon Garland. Even Jon will say so. Any other opinion is really a huge stretch.

I disagree. He cut his walk rate in half. If Ozzie can get pitchers to do this, how come the bullpen is the mess it is?

[LVSoxFan]

For all you guys bashing Kenny Williams...you must not be old enough to have been a Sox fan in the '70's and '80's. Every year under KW we have had a chance and one time we won the WS....there are 30 teams trying for the WS...which means all things equal we should win once a generation. I respect your greed but...my dad waited 80 years for his first. I think we should be patient waiting for the second to develop. But god bless Kenny because I think he's NOT patient to wait and I think I see what he's doing. Having two dominant power pitchers leads to WS wins...Pedro/Schilling, Johnson/Schilling, Clemens/Cone (twice), Cone-Wells, Brown-Fernandez, and by the way...Santana and Liriano would have won it for the Twins last year if not the injury, same with Wood-Prior. So the Sox have Buehrle...a very good lefty...Glavine-esque. And Garland another non-strikeout guy that is great on a team with good offense/defense...but there is little history of two non-strikeout pitchers leading a team to the WS. When Sox won it was Contreas that was clearly the ace...and Garcia was a strikeout guy too. If I'm KW I don't try to emulate Atlanta with the long stretch of pennants...but try to find the formula to win the next WS. Vazquez, Danks, Floyd, Gio, De Los Santos, the lefty they drafted #1...he's trying to get us in a position to have the next Clemens/Cone. If he has to use Buehrle and/or Garland to get us that true dominant ace? Let's give it a shot.

 

THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE WHITE SOX FRONT OFFICE.

[Steff]

THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE WHITE SOX FRONT OFFICE.

 

I totally understand his POV, but I swear I was sitting her trying to guess which Sox employee authored that.

[RibbieRubarb]

Obviously at the beginning of the season it's every teams goal to win the world series. Obviously only one can. I believe that a GM should be based upon not just winning games but winning divisions and playoff appearances. Just because KW won a World series doesn't make him a good Gm.

 

During his tenure Kenny Williams has never had a losing season. Thats pretty good in comparison to the other names you mentioned who had many seasons in their first years under .500.

 

Just because KW won a World series doesn't make him a good Gm. He has won 1 year in the 7 he has been here. Sure that one has resulted in the first World series Championship in 88 years for the city, blah blah blah.

 

Blah, blah, blah???

The title was that meaningless to you? That quote really is the epitome of a fair-weather fan. I'm sure the most hardened pessimist on this board would never dimiss our 2005 season as Blah, blah,blah.

 

You listen to any knowlegable baseball fan and they will tell you, you lock up good starting pitching, that's where it all starts. And he refuses to do that. But yet he will give JC a 3 year deal with the 1st year a NTC. Where is the logic in that??

 

I missed the press release where Kenny refused to do that? Nice of you to make that up, though. As for JC, he got a ONE YEAR NTC!!!! Not for the entire length of his deal, which is what Mark wants. It's been reported that Kenny has countered with that or a limited no-trade clause ala Paul.

 

I will agree it's hard to find logic when you don't use the facts in your argument.

Edited July 2, 2007 by RibbieRubarb

[iamshack]

I disagree. He cut his walk rate in half. If Ozzie can get pitchers to do this, how come the bullpen is the mess it is?

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with you that cutting your walk rate, or your WHIP, will help you.

 

You're pointing to that as the sole reason for Jon's success.

 

We are not.

 

I thought yesterday afternoon's game was a prime example of the affect Ozzie has had on Jon.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think he's NOT patient to wait and I think I see what he's doing. Having two dominant power pitchers leads to WS wins...Pedro/Schilling, Johnson/Schilling, Clemens/Cone (twice), Cone-Wells, Brown-Fernandez, and by the way...Santana and Liriano would have won it for the Twins last year if not the injury, same with Wood-Prior. So the Sox have Buehrle...a very good lefty...Glavine-esque. And Garland another non-strikeout guy that is great on a team with good offense/defense...but there is little history of two non-strikeout pitchers leading a team to the WS. When Sox won it was Contreas that was clearly the ace...and Garcia was a strikeout guy too. If I'm KW I don't try to emulate Atlanta with the long stretch of pennants...but try to find the formula to win the next WS. Vazquez, Danks, Floyd, Gio, De Los Santos, the lefty they drafted #1...he's trying to get us in a position to have the next Clemens/Cone. If he has to use Buehrle and/or Garland to get us that true dominant ace? Let's give it a shot.

 

Interesting way of looking at it, insightful post. Never really sat down and thought about the two power arms at the top perspective. I'm sure there are lots of exceptions but you raise an interesting point.

[WCSox]

You are the one drinking the Kenny Williams Kool aid!!!

 

I'd say that you're the one drinking the Mark-agreed-to-a-deal-that-was-$50-$70-million-below-his-market-value Kool-Aid.

 

Watch how he trades away MB and JG and buries this franchise.

 

(1) I'm not arguing that the Sox won't trade them.

 

(2) The fact that you don't know who actually calls the shots in the front office shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

He's already done that with the farm system.

 

Yeah, it was really stupid for the Sox to trade Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Esteban Loaiza for two starting pitchers who helped us win the WS. The Sox would've been a Yankees-like Dynasty if they would've held onto the studs that their farm system has produced over the past five years!

 

My God, your posts are terrible.

[Dick Allen]

He gave him an extension because he was manager of the year in 00' and he won a division. He really had no other choice. I also like Jerry more than most, I even defended the infamous "Neal Cotts" start in New York. But his handling of Jon Garland, IMO, was poor.

 

I'm not sure if you believe Ozzie's opinion about Jon came from Hawk or not, but even Ozzie stressed that he had to give Jon the chances to work through his own struggles, and he did so. Don't get me wrong- I don't think Jon was a crap pitcher under Jerry- but I don't think there is much of a chance Jon would have matured into the guy he is now if Jerry had continued to be manager of this team.

He gave him an extension after 2000 even though he was under contract through the 2002 season, and at that point as you pointed out earlier was well on his way to almost ruining Jon Garland.

[dagotony06]

For all you guys bashing Kenny Williams...you must not be old enough to have been a Sox fan in the '70's and '80's. Every year under KW we have had a chance and one time we won the WS....there are 30 teams trying for the WS...which means all things equal we should win once a generation. I respect your greed but...my dad waited 80 years for his first. I think we should be patient waiting for the second to develop. But god bless Kenny because I think he's NOT patient to wait and I think I see what he's doing. Having two dominant power pitchers leads to WS wins...Pedro/Schilling, Johnson/Schilling, Clemens/Cone (twice), Cone-Wells, Brown-Fernandez, and by the way...Santana and Liriano would have won it for the Twins last year if not the injury, same with Wood-Prior. So the Sox have Buehrle...a very good lefty...Glavine-esque. And Garland another non-strikeout guy that is great on a team with good offense/defense...but there is little history of two non-strikeout pitchers leading a team to the WS. When Sox won it was Contreas that was clearly the ace...and Garcia was a strikeout guy too. If I'm KW I don't try to emulate Atlanta with the long stretch of pennants...but try to find the formula to win the next WS. Vazquez, Danks, Floyd, Gio, De Los Santos, the lefty they drafted #1...he's trying to get us in a position to have the next Clemens/Cone. If he has to use Buehrle and/or Garland to get us that true dominant ace? Let's give it a shot.

You have a dominant ace in Buerhle. Why do you feel the need to trade him for a power pitcher who in 6 years we will trade away anyway beacuse we won't give him over a 3 year deal. Power pitchers are way more likely to get injured than finesse pitchers like Buerhle and JG. Hey maybe we can trade for Prior and Wood, they are power pitchers and were considered to be potential ACE type pitchers!!!What's the point. For you to say you would rather have a rotation of JV, Danks,Floyd, GIO and DLS, instead of MB,JG proven winners by the way,JV, Danks, and then you can choose who the 5th starter is. Your rotation really scares me big time.

[Dick Allen]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you that cutting your walk rate, or your WHIP, will help you.

 

You're pointing to that as the sole reason for Jon's success.

 

We are not.

 

I thought yesterday afternoon's game was a prime example of the affect Ozzie has had on Jon.

All his other numbers were pretty much the same.

[WCSox]

You have a dominant ace very good, consistent pitcher who dominates occasionally in Buerhle.

 

Fixed

[Chisoxfn]

KW took over after the 2000 season, Valentin was still a pretty good player. The Erstad/Garland trade happened after Erstad hit .258 with 9 homers and a pretty weak OBP. Garland was 22 years old, and its laughable you think Jerry Manuel ruined him. I think you buy Hawk's BS a little too much. I guess if your happy with 82 or 83 win seasons or finishing in 2nd or 3rd place almost every year, KW could be a hero. I like winning. Which to me means making the playoffs.

I remember Garland even alluding to one of the big changes in his career occurred when Ozzie came in and actually showed confidence in Jon. Ozzie let Jon work himself out of jams and because of it developed into one of the better pitchers in baseball (also partially because Jon matured). In fact, one of the things that sometimes frustrates me is also the thing that I like most about Ozzie (his willingness to stick by his starters and show them the rope).

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just because KW won a World series doesn't make him a good Gm. He has won 1 year in the 7 he has been here. Sure that one has resulted in the first World series Championship in 88 years for the city, blah blah blah. I'm saying I don't believe KW is a smart GM. I don't think he is a great GM by any means. I think this Buerhle fiasco has shown that. He preaches to the fans about wanting to win and sustatin it, but yet he is gonna trade away a guy becasue he refuses to give him a NTC, after the guy gives you a huge hometown discount. And JG will be traded most likely after that. So to me he is a liar. You listen to any knowlegable baseball fan and they will tell you, you lock up good starting pitching, that's where it all starts. And he refuses to do that.

 

Two points ... one, there's a lot more behind the scenes than just Ken Williams. He's the point guy, but many of these decisions are made by ownership. Not just Reinsdorf either, there are some pretty powerful businessmen who make their point known and have been involved for quite a long time.

 

Two, he has shown he will lock up starting pitching. He extended Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, and Vazquez during his tenure. He/the Sox org. has a successful history of locking up their own starting pitching.