KW Speaks about Buehrle's NTC

[michelangelosmonkey]

THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE WHITE SOX FRONT OFFICE.

 

Listen I used to be EMBARRASSED by KW. I was a Bill James fan back in the early 80's...bought his second prospectus (no one really bought his first). I read Moneyball where Billy Beane basically considered KW his fool. KW was kind of the anti-Bill JAmes. But KW said when he became GM...I'm going to get a WS or die trying. And no sacred cows. Traded beloved players, fired managers, made controversial trades. IT's been FUN to watch him as GM...and by the way...he did win a WS. So don't we have to cut him slack? And now he seems to be figuring things out. I really liked his 'idea' in the off-season to get a bunch of power arms for the bullpen. God knows it didn't work...but it was a good plan. And trying to find a couple of aces? And trade a guy like Buehrle who is beloved for someone like this 21 year old Dodger outfielder? I LOVE the gambling spirit. So call me a front office guy if you want...truth is I'm just a monkeyboy who loves the Sox, am glad my dad didn't die before he got to see them win, and think Kenny has a plan. ok?

[Steff]

You have a dominant ace in Buerhle.

 

It's minimally arguable that Mark is the ace of our staff. But a dominate ace in the rest of the league, even in the NL... that's an argument you're not likely to win.

[Chisoxfn]

Garland averaged about half an inning more a start under Ozzie than he did under Manuel and then suddenly in 2005 he cut his walk rate almost in half. He figured out how to pitch. Give Ozzie the credit if you will, I will give it to Garland. If Manuel was so bad, how do you give KW a pass on giving him a contract extension? I do think Manuel's time was up when he was canned but I think he was decent. I have a higher opinion of him than the Hawkeroo.

I think its a shame that Manuel isn't managing in the majors. I think he's the perfect guy to work with a young team because he knows the game but is also willing to be patient with the youngsters. I think in Jon's case having a guy like Ozzie helped him out but that team turned into a more veteran team and kind of needed that edgier type of persona to put them over the top (they also got much better pitching).

[Dick Allen]

I remember Garland even alluding to one of the big changes in his career occurred when Ozzie came in and actually showed confidence in Jon. Ozzie let Jon work himself out of jams and because of it developed into one of the better pitchers in baseball (also partially because Jon matured). In fact, one of the things that sometimes frustrates me is also the thing that I like most about Ozzie (his willingness to stick by his starters and show them the rope).

Funny he didn't say that in 2004. His numbers were the same to a little worse than 2003. He cut down on his walks and started to win.

[WCSox]

So call me a front office guy if you want...truth is I'm just a monkeyboy who loves the Sox, am glad my dad didn't die before he got to see them win, and think Kenny has a plan. ok?

 

Whatever happened to just being a Sox fan, regardless of what one thinks of the front office?

[dagotony06]

I'd say that you're the one drinking the Mark-agreed-to-a-deal-that-was-$50-$70-million-below-his-market-value Kool-Aid.

(1) I'm not arguing that the Sox won't trade them.

 

(2) The fact that you don't know who actually calls the shots in the front office shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, it was really stupid for the Sox to trade Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Esteban Loaiza for two starting pitchers who helped us win the WS. The Sox would've been a Yankees-like Dynasty if they would've held onto the studs that their farm system has produced over the past five years!

 

My God, your posts are terrible.

From the Whitesox website, which would seem to be pretty credible to me

"The two sides appear to have reached an impasse over the inclusion of a no-trade clause covering the entire four years of a reported $56 million deal"

I also know that JR and his cronies call the shots, but also believe he gives his GM alot of control when it comes to signing players and listens to his advice.

 

I never said it was stupid to trade for FG or JC. I'm saying our farm system is terrible because of our drafts that we have and, and some questionable trades.

[michelangelosmonkey]

You have a dominant ace in Buerhle. Why do you feel the need to trade him for a power pitcher who in 6 years we will trade away anyway beacuse we won't give him over a 3 year deal. Power pitchers are way more likely to get injured than finesse pitchers like Buerhle and JG. Hey maybe we can trade for Prior and Wood, they are power pitchers and were considered to be potential ACE type pitchers!!!What's the point. For you to say you would rather have a rotation of JV, Danks,Floyd, GIO and DLS, instead of MB,JG proven winners by the way,JV, Danks, and then you can choose who the 5th starter is. Your rotation really scares me big time.

I'm NOT saying that's my rotation. I actually wish the Sox would sign Buehrle...because guys like Radke and Glavine are winners. But I'm saying that a winning team is a collection of talent. Some pieces are more important than others. If Buehrle is over valued in the market place where the Sox can get some other teams #1 prospect and #7 prospect? AND he's going to tie up $15 million in salary? Worth a shot. And by the way...you don't have to wait 7 years for a young pitcher to develop. Look at Danks. Look at Lirano last year. Dontrelle WIllis. Peavey. There are young pitchers that can be dominant right away...but they are unproven. Buehrle will never strike fear in the hearts of other teams...but he will throw shut outs and win lots of games. It SEEMS that when you get to the playoffs...Schilling sorts are better than Buehrle sorts.

[iamshack]

Funny he didn't say that in 2004. His numbers were the same to a little worse than 2003. He cut down on his walks and started to win.

 

You're missing the point. Ozzie HELPED Jon make the jump. Therefore, it didn't happen immediately when Ozzie began managing Jon, but AS Ozzie managed Jon.

 

Keep in mind that despite cutting his walk rate, which was even lower in 06' than in 05', his WHIP was about the same in 06' as it had been the rest of his career. And yet he won 18 games.

 

Now I know wins and losses aren't the preeminent statistic as far as starting pitchers go, but I certainly think Jon was a far better pitcher in 06' than in 04', 03' and 02', despite a similar WHIP.

[dagotony06]

It's minimally arguable that Mark is the ace of our staff. But a dominate ace in the rest of the league, even in the NL... that's an argument you're not likely to win.

How can you say that he isn't a dominate ACE. Because he isn't a strikout pitcher, or a power pitcher?? I don't see how poeple don't consider this guy an ACE. The guy is a winner plain and simple.

[fathom]

I hope he either re-signs or gets traded tomorrow, as the arguments we're all involved in on here are going nowhere.

[WCSox]

From the Whitesox website, which would seem to be pretty credible to me

"The two sides appear to have reached an impasse over the inclusion of a no-trade clause covering the entire four years of a reported $56 million deal"

 

That's copied and pasted from elsewhere. What does it tell you that all of the MLB web sites look almost excatly the same? Perhaps that the Sox have minimal control over content?

 

If you want to believe that Mark will gladly accept $70 million less than Zito because some anonymous source told the Trib so and because the story made it's way to MLB's news wire, go right ahead. I'm staying away from the Kool-Aid.

 

I also know that JR and his cronies call the shots, but also believe he gives his GM alot of control when it comes to signing players and listens to his advice.

 

Outside of Lamie Navarro, who was a complete disaster, how many huge contracts have Ron Schueler or Larry Himes given to veteran pitcher in his mid/late 20's? Do you understand now why your anger towards Kenny Williams over this issue is misplaced?

 

If you want to get pissed off at somebody, direct your anger towards the Board of Directors because this is TYPICAL of what they've done for the past 20 years.

 

I never said it was stupid to trade for FG or JC. I'm saying our farm system is terrible because of our drafts that we have and, and some questionable trades.

 

Agreed about the drafts, but those trades to get Freddy, Jose, Danks, Vazquez, and Thome were far from "questionable."

Edited July 2, 2007 by WCSox

[NorthSideSox72]

Please, don't let this thread become another dissection of the term "ace", which is of course entirely subjective. Let's just agree that some of us would label MB an ace, and others would not, and move on with the topic.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope he either re-signs or gets traded tomorrow, as the arguments we're all involved in on here are going nowhere.

 

Agree, today would be even better in fact.

[Steff]

How can you say that he isn't a dominate ACE. Because he isn't a strikout pitcher, or a power pitcher?? I don't see how poeple don't consider this guy an ACE. The guy is a winner plain and simple.

 

Mark is an excellent pitcher. He is not an ace outside of the CWS. I understand your feelings, but unless you step outside of the box you will never be able to look at the stuation objectively.

 

Please, don't let this thread become another dissection of the term "ace", which is of course entirely subjective. Let's just agree that some of us would label MB an ace, and others would not, and move on with the topic.

 

 

Agree.

[RibbieRubarb]

Mark is an excellent pitcher. He is not an ace outside of the CWS. I understand your feelings, but unless you step outside of the box you will never be able to look at the stuation objectively.

Agree.

 

I agree, because whatever he stepped on in the box is showing up in his posts.

[dagotony06]

During his tenure Kenny Williams has never had a losing season. Thats pretty good in comparison to the other names you mentioned who had many seasons in their first years under .500.

Blah, blah, blah???

The title was that meaningless to you? That quote really is the epitome of a fair-weather fan. I'm sure the most hardened pessimist on this board would never dimiss our 2005 season as Blah, blah,blah.

I missed the press release where Kenny refused to do that? Nice of you to make that up, though. As for JC, he got a ONE YEAR NTC!!!! Not for the entire length of his deal, which is what Mark wants. It's been reported that Kenny has countered with that or a limited no-trade clause ala Paul.

 

I will agree it's hard to find logic when you don't use the facts in your argument.

Don't try to paint me as a fair weather fan cause I'm not. Never have been and never will be. If anything I'm too passionate about this team. I dismissed it as Blah blah blah, cause I know the argument I am gonna get from people when I argue about KW and why I don't believe he is a good GM. No one was happier we won in 05, but that was 2 years ago, and I'm over that. I still have good memories, but I don't live in the past, that's for cowards. So for you to say I said the title was meaningless, you are puuting words in chief.

 

As for the press release, Kw refuses to give Buerhle a NTC. That's pretty common knowledge. So in my eyes he refuses to lock up good starting pitching. Oh you are right I forgot we did lock up the .500 pitcher in JV and the old man in JC. That's a great way to build a rotation. I forgot my bad!! I think if MB wants a full NTC he should get one period. He is taking less to stay here, he wants to be here. He is the type of guy you want to build a rotation around. Him and JG. But KW would rather build it around JV and JC!!

[harfman77]

The job of the GM is to put a team together that will make the playoffs, the job of the manager is to win the playoffs. Kenny has not put good enough talent that fit well together out there consistently over his tenure. I really dont like JR's thinking of always hiring from within. For instance with firing the amateur scouting director and replacing him with someone else in the same department. You need a fresh look sometimes and that is something ths Sox lack a lot of.

[WCSox]

If anything I'm too passionate about this team.

 

You don't say?!

 

MB...is taking less to stay here, he wants to be here.

 

[Dick Allen]

You're missing the point. Ozzie HELPED Jon make the jump. Therefore, it didn't happen immediately when Ozzie began managing Jon, but AS Ozzie managed Jon.

 

Keep in mind that despite cutting his walk rate, which was even lower in 06' than in 05', his WHIP was about the same in 06' as it had been the rest of his career. And yet he won 18 games.

 

Now I know wins and losses aren't the preeminent statistic as far as starting pitchers go, but I certainly think Jon was a far better pitcher in 06' than in 04', 03' and 02', despite a similar WHIP.

Because he was Jekyl and Hyde. He was awful the first couple of months but got wins because the offense wason fire. Wins are wins as far as I'm concerned. He was very good his last 20 or so starts. I just saw nothing in 2004 that was any different than the previous Garland. In 2005 he had a little plan, threw strikes, kept his pitch count low, was able to get a lot of wins at the beginning of the season and he built confidence.

Edited July 2, 2007 by Dick Allen

[RibbieRubarb]

Don't try to paint me as a fair weather fan cause I'm not. Never have been and never will be. If anything I'm too passionate about this team. I dismissed it as Blah blah blah, cause I know the argument I am gonna get from people when I argue about KW and why I don't believe he is a good GM. No one was happier we won in 05, but that was 2 years ago, and I'm over that. I still have good memories, but I don't live in the past, that's for cowards. So for you to say I said the title was meaningless, you are puuting words in chief.

It meant so much to you, but you're over it a year and half later....ok

I will NEVER be over that...or macho grande.

[iamshack]

Mark is an excellent pitcher. He is not an ace outside of the CWS. I understand your feelings, but unless you step outside of the box you will never be able to look at the stuation objectively.

Agree.

 

Well, that just depends on what your definition of an "ace" is. I think most of the time, people consider aces to be hard throwers, high k/9 guys, etc. And under that definition, Mark is clearly not an ace.

 

However, he compares very favorably amongst pitchers his age in Wins, ERA, WHIP, etc.

 

He's never going to be the guy that has the peripherals that excite everyone, but then again, Javy does, and look where it gets him.

 

I guess it just depends on the way you think of an ace. The way I think about it, is, if I had to choose a pitcher to start the seventh game of the World Series, who would I choose? Now obviously there is Santana- he's probably in a league of his own there. And then there is Verlander, and Peavy, Danny Haren, John Lackey, etc. But outside of Johan Santana, I think Mark fits in well with any of those guys. And that, to me, makes him an "ace."

[Steff]

It meant so much to you, but you're over it a year and half later....ok

I will NEVER be over that...or macho grande.

 

 

Good grief... not only was I crying from before the start of game 1... I think I was still a bit weapy at the parade. I'm with you. I don't think I will ever be over it.

[iamshack]

Please, don't let this thread become another dissection of the term "ace", which is of course entirely subjective. Let's just agree that some of us would label MB an ace, and others would not, and move on with the topic.

 

Hah, saw this too late.

 

Sorry.

[Steff]

Well, that just depends on what your definition of an "ace" is.

 

Missed a post up there did ya?

 

 

 

 

Hah, saw this too late.

 

Sorry.

 

 

LOL.

[michelangelosmonkey]

The job of the GM is to put a team together that will make the playoffs, the job of the manager is to win the playoffs. Kenny has not put good enough talent that fit well together out there consistently over his tenure. I really dont like JR's thinking of always hiring from within. For instance with firing the amateur scouting director and replacing him with someone else in the same department. You need a fresh look sometimes and that is something ths Sox lack a lot of.

 

Just because someone is IN the organization doesn't mean he has the same outlook as his fomer boss. Look at KW...he was promoted from within...and wow...what a weird ride it's been with Kenny. First year he trades our "young ace" Sirotka for David Wells, then he trades our "young ace" Kip Wells for that turd from Pittsburgh (sorry I forget his name). I nearly cried when he traded Jeremy Reed...and when he cut Jon Rauch. And when he traded Chris Young. I had them all as future super stars. I was wrong (well I still think Chris Young will be a star). KW wasn't always right...but Iguchi, Dye, El Duque, Contras, Freddie Garcia...then trading Freddie Garcia just in time. If he trades Buehrle we KNOW it's not because he's cheap or stupid...but the investment in money and the return in talent fit into KW plan.