This all falls on KW

[RockRaines]

Who's the ace you're referring to? If it's Contreras, then I think we all knew better after how he looked since returning from injury last season.

And yet had all offseason to recover, kinda like the rest of our staff (buehrle). He was our Ace and was put in the #1 spot to show that he was. The players are to blame for this season, nobody else.

[fathom]

And yet had all offseason to recover, kinda like the rest of our staff (buehrle). He was our Ace and was put in the #1 spot to show that he was. The players are to blame for this season, nobody else.

 

The only way he was going to recover to get back to where he was two years ago was if he found the Fountain of Youth. I'm just mad we didn't trade him for Adam Dunn. And KW did an atrocious job this offseason improving our bullpen. There's no reason to worry about it for this year, and we just have to hope that massive changes are made to this team's personnel over this offseason.

Edited July 18, 2007 by fathom

[Soxfest]

KW needs to step up!

[NorthSideSox72]

The only way he was going to recover to get back to where he was two years ago was if he found the Fountain of Youth. I'm just mad we didn't trade him for Adam Dunn. And KW did an atrocious job this offseason improving our bullpen. There's no reason to worry about it for this year, and we just have to hope that massive changes are made to this team's personnel over this offseason.

Except, the thing is, some of these bullpen arms that have been so atrocious struggled because they were rushed or not yet ready. Aardsma, Day, Sisco, et al really should have been in AAA to start the season. So yeah, KW messed that up. But getting rid of them now doesn't necessarily make sense. Better to keep some and get rid of some, but don't clean them all out. Some of them are still likely to turn into solid relievers, in the next couple years.

 

[RockRaines]

The only way he was going to recover to get back to where he was two years ago was if he found the Fountain of Youth. I'm just mad we didn't trade him for Adam Dunn. And KW did an atrocious job this offseason improving our bullpen. There's no reason to worry about it for this year, and we just have to hope that massive changes are made to this team's personnel over this offseason.

You mean the first half of last year when he was unbeatable? Is that when you meant?

 

And our bullpen had a ton of potential and showed it in April. Nobody could have predicted the full meltdown that has happened.

 

Look at the "exact science" of bullpen pitchers. How many guys from our 2005 WS champion team are still in the majors?

[AirScott]

The problem with Sisco is that he always seemed to be close to figuring it out before it would fall apart for him. He has great stuff, and good power coupled with no control at all. I think KW and Cooper thought he would turn it around and they gave him every opportunity to do so.

In retrospect, his problems shouldn't have come as a surprise. I remember usually when he'd face the Sox, our hitters would look uncomfortable facing him (a 6-10 lefty throwing 93-94), but in the end we'd hit him. What KW & Co. saw was the hitters looking bad facing him...what they should have put more weight in is the end result.

 

You can have one or two of those kind of guys, but our entire 2007 bullpen was based on potential -- there wasn't an established reliever to be found. The pen looked good in the first month, and it all started falling apart just before the first Cubs series. I was suggesting a trade for David Weathers shortly thereafter, but he probably wasn't available yet. According to Buster Olney, he is now. But is it too late...?

Edited July 18, 2007 by AirScott

[fathom]

You mean the first half of last year when he was unbeatable? Is that when you meant?

 

And our bullpen had a ton of potential and showed it in April. Nobody could have predicted the full meltdown that has happened.

 

Look at the "exact science" of bullpen pitchers. How many guys from our 2005 WS champion team are still in the majors?

 

We needed more veterans in the pen this year. We went with so many young "stuff" guys. Something that was really strange was how much stuff every reliever we have, besides Boone, lost coming into this year. Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Sisco, and Aardsma's fastballs were all significantly down from last season.

[AirScott]

We needed more veterans in the pen this year. We went with so many young "stuff" guys. Something that was really strange was how much stuff every reliever we have, besides Boone, lost coming into this year. Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Sisco, and Aardsma's fastballs were all significantly down from last season.

We needed a veteran in the pen this year. But the other point is good, lots of times you just get lucky with relievers like we did in 2005. Look what Dennys Reyes did for the Twins last year; he posted a 0.89 ERA! Dennys Reyes did that!

 

...

 

DENNYS REYES!

[RockRaines]

We needed a veteran in the pen this year. But the other point is good, lots of times you just get lucky with relievers like we did in 2005. Look what Dennys Reyes did for the Twins last year; he posted a 0.89 ERA! Dennys Reyes did that!

 

...

 

DENNYS REYES!

Cotts, polite, Hermanson.

 

Where are those guys now?

[StrangeSox]

Just because bullpens are volatile doesn't mean you can't make bad moves and decisions about them.

[AirScott]

Just because bullpens are volatile doesn't mean you can't make bad moves and decisions about them.

Oh, the Sox obviously did this season by not bringing in one proven veteran, although it didn't appear that way in April. But most of the time, good bullpens come by luck. Did anybody say that Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts would be two shutdown relievers before 2005 began? That Shingo Takatsu would bomb to begin his second season but Dustin Hermanson would step in and save 30 games (and 19 before blowing his first opportunity)? Is there even any way to predict this kind of stuff? As said above, Politte, Cotts and Hermanson aren't even in the majors right now (although Hermanson had back issues that forced him out).

[greg775]

But building a bullpen around Sisco, Aardsma and Masset was simply foolish -- and KW got burned big-time.

 

And don't forget MacDougal. He was not beloved in Kansas City because of his wildness.

It was truly foolish.

We need a reliable veteran like Hermy was.

MacD was the hope; but he is truly truly hopeless.

[chisoxt]

And don't forget MacDougal. He was not beloved in Kansas City because of his wildness.

It was truly foolish.

We need a reliable veteran like Hermy was.

MacD was the hope; but he is truly truly hopeless.

Lost in all of this discussion is the fact that the Sox refuse to pay for quality relievers Hopefully that will change next year.

 

[vandy125]

Lost in all of this discussion is the fact that the Sox refuse to pay for quality relievers Hopefully that will change next year.

 

How high do you think that the payroll can go? What "quality" relievers were out there last year to get?

[AirScott]

And don't forget MacDougal. He was not beloved in Kansas City because of his wildness.

It was truly foolish.

We need a reliable veteran like Hermy was.

MacD was the hope; but he is truly truly hopeless.

that's why, shortly after the Cubs series, I threw David Weathers' name out there as a guy we should pursue if he were made available. Hermy has a 4.21 career ERA; Weathers' career mark is 4.33. not spectacular, but you know what you're getting, and that in itself is valuable. the bullpen we went into the season with had the potential to be great, but also to suck bad. they sucked bad, and there really wasn't a guy outside of Jenks you could point at and say he could be counted on.

[NorthSideSox72]

As SS2K5 pointed out in another thread, one thing that may help this 'pen is the recent addition of two pitchers with styles entirely different than the fireballers - Haeger and Wassermann. Adding a knuckler and a submariner to the mix might help the other guys, kind of like a pitcher adding a good changeup to his repertoire (though to a less dramatic extent).

 

I still think the pen needs more of a fix than that, but this may be a step in a positive direction for now.

 

[BigSqwert]

As SS2K5 pointed out in another thread, one thing that may help this 'pen is the recent addition of two pitchers with styles entirely different than the fireballers - Haeger and Wassermann. Adding a knuckler and a submariner to the mix might help the other guys, kind of like a pitcher adding a good changeup to his repertoire (though to a less dramatic extent).

I remember making a comment like this before the season started when everyone was so excited about having a pen full of flamethrowers. My comment was brushed off by most.

[Steff]

I remember making a comment like this before the season started when everyone was so excited about having a pen full of flamethrowers. My comment was brushed off by most.

 

 

In defense, no one had seen much from them and never would have guessed the s*** would have hit the fan so hard, much less ripped it from the ceiling. I didn't reallize how bad things really were until I saw it for myself in March.

[AirScott]

In defense, no one had seen much from them and never would have guessed the s*** would have hit the fan so hard, much less ripped it from the ceiling. I didn't reallize how bad things really were until I saw it for myself in March.

The idea of an all-flamethrowers pen sounded like a good idea, and looked OK in April. Nobody likes facing guys who come into the 6th inning throwing pitches at 96 mph. Like I said before, our hitters looked uncomfortable when Andy Sisco pitched against us, but they'd knock him around a bit.

 

The first time I saw Sisco was early on in 2005...he was a 6-10 lefty throwing 93 with a low ERA at the time. the hitters looked bad but fared well, and if you look at his 2005 game log, he blew three saves in his first four appearances against the Sox and the Royals lost all four games. but he also struck out six Sox batters in those three innings.

[BigSqwert]

The idea of an all-flamethrowers pen sounded like a good idea, and looked OK in April.

Speak for yourself. I thought it was too 1 dimensional. But I'm typically wrong in my predictions.

[AirScott]

Speak for yourself. I thought it was too 1 dimensional. But I'm typically wrong in my predictions.

I kind of was speaking for myself, but obviously there are two sides to every issue. I'm obviously not speaking for everyone, but I think I was kind of speaking for KW, too, but only in the lightest sense.

[Steff]

The idea of an all-flamethrowers pen sounded like a good idea, and looked OK in April. Nobody likes facing guys who come into the 6th inning throwing pitches at 96 mph. Like I said before, our hitters looked uncomfortable when Andy Sisco pitched against us, but they'd knock him around a bit.

 

The first time I saw Sisco was early on in 2005...he was a 6-10 lefty throwing 93 with a low ERA at the time. the hitters looked bad but fared well, and if you look at his 2005 game log, he blew three saves in his first four appearances against the Sox and the Royals lost all four games. but he also struck out six Sox batters in those three innings.

 

 

Really?? I hated it from the start, and even moreso when I saw it in March. I just had a bad feeling. A "gut feeling"

[Steff]

I kind of was speaking for myself, but obviously there are two sides to every issue. I'm obviously not speaking for everyone, but I think I was kind of speaking for KW, too, but only in the lightest sense.

 

 

Oh, he definitely thought it would be fine and blew the comments & questions off every time they were brought up at Soxfest and in Arizona.

[AirScott]

Really?? I hated it from the start, and even moreso when I saw it in March. I just had a bad feeling. A "gut feeling"

But then it seemed fine in April, which might be the worst thing that happened. Maybe something could have been done if they sucked from the start, but when we played the Yankees and Cubs in May, it was written off as a poor stretch. And then that stretch continued until...now. Back to 2005, Shingo sucked right from the start, so Hermy was brought in early enough that the team didn't miss a beat.

 

But even still, what could KW have done in April? Nobody was available anyways...I guess it was just doomed to end up as a failed experiment. Lesson learned.

 

Oh, he definitely thought it would be fine and blew the comments & questions off every time they were brought up at Soxfest and in Arizona.

I believe the phrase he used was "force to be reckoned with."

Edited July 20, 2007 by AirScott

[Steff]

But then it seemed fine in April, which might be the worst thing that happened. Maybe something could have been done if they sucked from the start, but when we played the Yankees and Cubs in May, it was written off as a poor stretch. And then that stretch continued until...now. Back to 2005, Shingo sucked right from the start, so Hermy was brought in early enough that the team didn't miss a beat.

 

But even still, what could KW have done in April? Nobody was available anyways...I guess it was just doomed to end up as a failed experiment. Lesson learned.

I believe the phrase he used was "force to be reckoned with."

 

I agree at that point there was not much that could be done. And even if there was, Kenny wasn't doing it. He asked me "why are you always breaking my balls..." I replied "because I don't have balls I can't be concerned and ask questions..?" I got a half hearted "atta girl" look and big smile.