Contreras

[gosox41]

I agree on giving Floyd a shot.. but I can't see how this team is in contention with no farm, Old players not preforming and a high payroll right now.

 

 

I guess I'm trying to be optimistic. Some don't like much negativity.

 

Truth be told, with the $84 mill guaranteed to the 13 players next year and the fact taht they have 9 holes (I'm not exaggerating) to fill next year with hopefully at least $16 mill and no farm system pretty much puts this team up a creek without a paddle. If they sign Dye toa n $8-10 mill per year contract, it gives them that much less to spend on that crappy bullpen, a SS, etc. Barring any trades, I can tell you what I think they may do with the OF next year, but most won't like it.

 

 

 

Bob

[fathom]

I guess I'm trying to be optimistic. Some don't like much negativity.

 

Truth be told, with the $84 mill guaranteed to the 13 players next year and the fact taht they have 9 holes (I'm not exaggerating) to fill next year with hopefully at least $16 mill and no farm system pretty much puts this team up a creek without a paddle. If they sign Dye toa n $8-10 mill per year contract, it gives them that much less to spend on that crappy bullpen, a SS, etc. Barring any trades, I can tell you what I think they may do with the OF next year, but most won't like it.

Bob

 

They won't be re-signing Dye.

[gosox41]

No, not really -- it's because Floyd has nothing left to do at AAA. He can get AAA hitters out. I want to find out if he can get big league hitters out.

 

And let's not get into the Gavin Floyd "mentality" discussion. Everybody said Jon Garland was a mental midget when he first entered the league -- apparently he didn't punch enough lockers or throw enough water jugs when he had a bad outing. People didn't like that he maintained a calm demeanor win and lose, so they took that as him not caring.

 

One difference is people said Galrand didn't care, but there are reports that Floyd doesn't have confidence in himself. The difference is if you go out there with a loser menatlity, odds are you're going to lose. There were never issues of Garland's confidence just his calm demeanor.

 

 

 

Bob

[gosox41]

They won't be re-signing Dye.

 

 

Then barring any trades for real OFer's, there's a good chance the Sox starting OF next year could be Fields in LF, Erstad in CF, and Sweeney/Mackowiack in RF with Owens the first back up OFer if Crede's back acts up an Fields has to go to 3B or when Estad gets injured.

 

 

 

Bob

[Dick Allen]

I really think Contreras has had issues with his back. Ever since he hurt it last year, he's gone from as dominant as anyone to pretty bad right now. Floyd isn't exactly a rookie. He had some success at the major league level in 2004 back when Magglio and CLee and Frank Thomas were still playing with the White Sox, but since then he's pitched 86 big league innings giving up 85 runs 23 homers 108 hits and 52 walks. There is a far better chance Contreras can at least figure something out to be mediocre than Floyd becoming mediocre.

[Dick Allen]

Then barring any trades for real OFer's, there's a good chance the Sox starting OF next year could be Fields in LF, Erstad in CF, and Sweeney/Mackowiack in RF with Owens the first back up OFer if Crede's back acts up an Fields has to go to 3B or when Estad gets injured.

Bob

There is no way KW will wind up with that line-up. They re-signed Buerhle, he will play to win. They will free up money to spend someway. If no one takes Contreras, Garland or Vazquez will be gone.

 

 

[fathom]

Then barring any trades for real OFer's, there's a good chance the Sox starting OF next year could be Fields in LF, Erstad in CF, and Sweeney/Mackowiack in RF with Owens the first back up OFer if Crede's back acts up an Fields has to go to 3B or when Estad gets injured.

Bob

 

Mackowiak won't be back next year, as he'll make too much money. Rowand will be our CF. Does it really matter who's on the team though? They have like 18 holes to fix on this team. KW's done such a pathetic job with this personnel.

[hitlesswonder]

There is no way KW will wind up with that line-up. They re-signed Buerhle, he will play to win. They will free up money to spend someway. If no one takes Contreras, Garland or Vazquez will be gone.

I think you're wrong. It's a virtual lock that the 2008 OF will be the worst in baseball. The OF will likely have 2 young players plus a vet CF:

Young players (choose 2): Sweeney, Owens, Fields

CF: Erstad or Rowand

 

I'm starting to think Rowand is unlikely. He has a .900 OPS this season and will probably want GMJr type money. And KW won't shell that out.

 

Keep in mind that I think KW and Ozzie think they are playing to win when they trot Erstad out there. They fall in love with flawed players. Owens is clearly playing his way into their hearts with his rampant foot speed. The problem isn't not playing to win. It's talent evaluation.

[Gregory Pratt]

What I meant by that quote is that everything I ever thought about the game of baseball was slapped in the face by how Ozzie Guillen managed the 8th inning. If that's what a good manager does, then I don't know anything.

 

That was really, really, really bad, yes, I agree.

 

--

 

Oh, and I wasn't talking about Floyd as a mental midget exclusively. Yes, that is something that I think is valid when it comes to him -- the Phillie organization appears to, and the reporters there who used to cover him certainly think so, as does at least one Chicago beat writer (from a Philly article when we went to Philadelphia this year) -- but his stuff isn't as good as it once was, his control isn't exemplary in any sense, and he's become a AAAA player at best.

[rpmahr]

CF: Erstad or Rowand

 

Keep in mind that I think KW and Ozzie think they are playing to win when they trot Erstad out there. They fall in love with flawed players. Owens is clearly playing his way into their hearts with his rampant foot speed. The problem isn't not playing to win. It's talent evaluation.

 

why couldnt torii hunter be an option here?

[witesoxfan]

That was really, really, really bad, yes, I agree.

 

--

 

Oh, and I wasn't talking about Floyd as a mental midget exclusively. Yes, that is something that I think is valid when it comes to him -- the Phillie organization appears to, and the reporters there who used to cover him certainly think so, as does at least one Chicago beat writer (from a Philly article when we went to Philadelphia this year) -- but his stuff isn't as good as it once was, his control isn't exemplary in any sense, and he's become a AAAA player at best.

 

And even with his terrible struggles, I don't know how anyone can declare that a 24 year old is a AAAA player at best.

 

It's not worth debating, because we both know where it's going seeing as how it's already been there before.

[Gregory Pratt]

And even with his terrible struggles, I don't know how anyone can declare that a 24 year old is a AAAA player at best.

 

It's not worth debating, because we both know where it's going seeing as how it's already been there before.

 

I've always said: give the kid his chances. I look forward to seeing Gavin Floyd pitch at the Major League level, preferably not at a time when we're contending, which is now, because I know what the results will be. Still, I'd like to see them.

 

I know I'm not the only one who believes that Floyd is a terrible pitcher.

[witesoxfan]

I've always said: give the kid his chances. I look forward to seeing Gavin Floyd pitch at the Major League level, preferably not at a time when we're contending, which is now, because I know what the results will be. Still, I'd like to see them.

 

I know I'm not the only one who believes that Floyd is a terrible pitcher.

 

I'm just glad you are willing for that. I'm sure there are some who have completely written him off.

 

I think a comparison to Halladay - though the numbers and past histories support it slightly - is way too far fetched to even have a possibility of happening. However, I would not be surprised to see Floyd turn into a back end of the rotation starter; if he can do that alone, then the Sox have won the deal in regards to major league production.

[Gregory Pratt]

Sure, that sounds right.

[AirScott]

I'm just glad you are willing for that. I'm sure there are some who have completely written him off.

 

I think a comparison to Halladay - though the numbers and past histories support it slightly - is way too far fetched to even have a possibility of happening. However, I would not be surprised to see Floyd turn into a back end of the rotation starter; if he can do that alone, then the Sox have won the deal in regards to major league production.

Freddy didn't set the bar high, that's for sure.

[elrockinMT]

I am not convinced there will be big spending by the Sox on the free agent market this year. Who really is going to be out there that will be a plus relief pitcher? There might very well be heavy bidding on the few that might be there and it will drive up their price. We will probably pick up some younger guys that have not really excelled and are considered works in progress. Or guys that have been hurt and have talent, but won't be demanding the big bucks. That's why I think Jose will get traded and we use the money to keep the likes of Dye and Iguchi and use a little for the leftovers in the free agent market.

[rpmahr]

who would want contreras?

[Dick Allen]

I am not convinced there will be big spending by the Sox on the free agent market this year. Who really is going to be out there that will be a plus relief pitcher? There might very well be heavy bidding on the few that might be there and it will drive up their price. We will probably pick up some younger guys that have not really excelled and are considered works in progress. Or guys that have been hurt and have talent, but won't be demanding the big bucks. That's why I think Jose will get traded and we use the money to keep the likes of Dye and Iguchi and use a little for the leftovers in the free agent market.

There was an article in the Daily Herald the other day insinuating KW is going to be spending some money on the bullpen this offseason.

[maggsmaggs]

There was an article in the Daily Herald the other day insinuating KW is going to be spending some money on the bullpen this offseason.

I just can't see KW spending the $3-4 million per year for a top set-up man this off-season.

[Kyyle23]

why couldnt torii hunter be an option here?

 

money, Hunter is gonna be pricey. Especially if he stays on course with the year he is having

[Kalapse]

There isn't going to be a huge selection of quality relievers in free agency this year anyway.

 

RELIEF PITCHERS:

1.) Scott Linebrink   31

2.) Joe Kennedy       29

3.) Joe Beimel        31

4.) Jorge Julio       29

5.) Aaron Fultz       33       '08 TO worth $1.5M or $150K BO

6.) David Riske       31       '08 TO

7.) Byung-Hyun Kim    29

8.) Joel Piniero      29       '08 MO

9.) Trever Miller     35

10.) Luis Vizcaino    33

11.) Joe Borowski     37       '08 TO worth $4M or $250K BO

12.) LaTroy Hawkins   35       '08 MO worth $3.75M or $250K BO

13.) Julian Tavarez   35

14.) Rob. Hernandez   43       '08 TO worth $3.7M or $200K BO

15.) Scott Williamson 32

16.) Mike Myers       37

17.) Ryan Franklin    35

18.) Octavio Dotel    34

19.) Ron Mahay        36

20.) Kerry Wood       31

21.) Jon Lieber       38

22.) Elmer Dessens    37

23.) Chris Reitsma    30      '08 TO worth $2.7M or $700K

24.) Eddie Guardado   37      '08 TO worth $3M

25.) Daren Oliver     37      '08 TO worth $2M or $250K BO

OTHERS: Alfonseca, Carrasco, DeJean, Mesa, Timlin, Witasik, King, Romero, Villone
 

CLOSERS:

1.) Joe Nathan        33      '08 TO worth $6M or $1M BO

2.) Francisco Cordero 33

3.) J. Isringhausen   35      '08 TO worth $8M or $1.25M BO

4.) Mariano Rivera    38

5.) Eric Gagne        32

6.) Armando Benitez   35

OTHERS: T. Jones, B. Wickman

Aside from maybe Linebrink who on this list would you really be excited to add? And closers likely can't be had without opening up the closer's role for them first.

[bkmoney]

no team is THAT desperate for pitching that they would take contreras though.

 

especially what KW is asking for. I'm all for just taking whatever we can get for him.. just get rid of him

[BainesHOF]

Contreras will never go to the bullpen for us. He makes too much money to be anything less than a starter. That's just the way it is in the big leagues, especially with the White Sox.

[Balta1701]

I just can't see KW spending the $3-4 million per year for a top set-up man this off-season.

I can't see a top set-up man signing for only $3-4 million this offseason. Justin Speier got 4 years, $18 mil last offseason, and the price of relief pitching is only going to go up from there.

[Balta1701]

I've always said: give the kid his chances. I look forward to seeing Gavin Floyd pitch at the Major League level, preferably not at a time when we're contending, which is now, because I know what the results will be. Still, I'd like to see them.

 

I know I'm not the only one who believes that Floyd is a terrible pitcher.

We've had this discussion repeatedly, but I'll still fire out that I think Gavin Floyd is going to be a good to very good pitcher someday. His fastball has reportedly regained some of the life it lost in the last year or two, making him about the only guy in our organization other than Buehrle who hasn't lost velocity this year. He's been getting that curve ball over lately also, which has accounted for why he's been so good at AAA. But it seems he does have at least one issue in that at the last couple stops he's come to, his learning curve at each stop has been fairly slow. So his numbers at AA weren't great his first season there, he struggled when the Phils called him up from AA, and he never got the chance to adapt to AAA until this season because he kept starting the season in Philly.

 

He'll probably take his lumps when he comes up. But I'd rather he take his lumps in the big leagues for 2 months and then be over them after this season than have him need to do so next season at the beginning.