Contreras

[Gregory Pratt]

We've had this discussion repeatedly, but I'll still fire out that I think Gavin Floyd is going to be a good to very good pitcher someday. His fastball has reportedly regained some of the life it lost in the last year or two, making him about the only guy in our organization other than Buehrle who hasn't lost velocity this year. He's been getting that curve ball over lately also, which has accounted for why he's been so good at AAA. But it seems he does have at least one issue in that at the last couple stops he's come to, his learning curve at each stop has been fairly slow. So his numbers at AA weren't great his first season there, he struggled when the Phils called him up from AA, and he never got the chance to adapt to AAA until this season because he kept starting the season in Philly.

 

He'll probably take his lumps when he comes up. But I'd rather he take his lumps in the big leagues for 2 months and then be over them after this season than have him need to do so next season at the beginning.

 

Floyd's consistently 92-94, usually in the 92-93 range, as referred to me by BHAM and a few sources that aren't on this board.

 

He's been getting that curve ball over lately also, which has accounted for why he's been so good"

 

No. IL = little league = why.

 

I do agree that I hope he comes up this year, Contreras is dealt and Floyd runs himself out of town in favor of HAEGER.

[Dick Allen]

You actaully hope Floyd runs himself out of town? I can understand not liking Floyd, or thinking he won't succeed, but hoping he won't?

 

Oh, and since you beleive the IL is "little league" how do you explain Haegers numbers in AAA?

 

I'm sure he would want Floyd to succeed, but if he's like me he probably thinks that isn't likely. It would be best to see him stink up the joint the rest of this year than to count on him next season after a decent year in AAA and have him screw up when the team has a clean slate.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm sure he would want Floyd to succeed, but if he's like me he probably thinks that isn't likely. It would be best to see him stink up the joint the rest of this year than to count on him next season after a decent year in AAA and have him screw up when the team has a clean slate.

 

You know me so well.

 

As to IL + Little League: first, I'm clearly hyperbolizing; second, Haeger's numbers are very different, and he's always been exceptional for a knuckleballer; third, yes, his numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, because of the league, but there's far more reason to hope for Haeger than there is for Floyd. Far more reason.

[Rowand44]

You know me so well.

but there's far more reason to hope for Haeger than there is for Floyd. Far more reason.

Like?

[Gregory Pratt]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6068

 

Other than that, there's the fact that only one man believes in Gavin Floyd's future as a major league stud or even average pitcher, and that man's the same one who loved Jon Adkins, too.

[Gregory Pratt]

Nick Masset, ugh.

[Rowand44]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6068

 

Other than that, there's the fact that only one man believes in Gavin Floyd's future as a major league stud or even average pitcher, and that man's the same one who loved Jon Adkins, too.

I guess you forgot that I despise BP more than anything.

[CWSGuy406]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6068

 

Since that article was written, Haeger has given up ten homers, more than half the amount he gave up from 2004-2006 combined. I don't care to comment on Haeger's future and how good/useful he will or won't be -- I'm just saying things have changed a bit since that article was written.

Edited July 22, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[3E8]

And the author of that article admittedly selected Haeger over Andrew Miller in fantasy draft. Credibility lost. He has a mega hard-on for knuckleballers. So Haeger moved the the minors quickly. I never saw much improvement in the peripherals. He still walks more than 1 batter every 2 innings, gives up almost a hit per inning, doesn't miss bats although this year is better in that regard, and the ERA stays low even though the percentage of unearned runs he gives up are amongst the highest of pitching prospects because of wild pitches/passed balls. Haeger seems like a great guy, but his chance for success in the majors is less than that of even Gavin Floyd.

[Gregory Pratt]

Haeger will be fine. Floyd, won't.

[Yossarian]

We've had this discussion repeatedly, but I'll still fire out that I think Gavin Floyd is going to be a good to very good pitcher someday.

I don't. I think he's a stiff.

[Gregory Pratt]

Bookmarked.

 

[greg775]

Trade Contreras to the Mets for a minor league shortstop.

Or trade him to the Braves for somebody.

 

[southsider2k5]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6068

 

Other than that, there's the fact that only one man believes in Gavin Floyd's future as a major league stud or even average pitcher, and that man's the same one who loved Jon Adkins, too.

 

Yeah, and that guy built a World Series championship baseball team. Sorry I give him the benefit of the doubt, before anyone else here.

[hitlesswonder]

Haeger will be fine. Floyd, won't.

The smart money is to bet against all White Sox prospects.

[spiderman]

Trade Contreras to the Mets for a minor league shortstop.

Or trade him to the Braves for somebody.

 

I don't care if the White Sox get anything back for Contreras. If we are lucky enough to find a team that is willing to take his contract, be happy with that. Even if we have to write a check to cover a small portion, take that and be happy with that as well.

 

[striker]

Haeger will be fine. Floyd, won't.

 

I think they will both be good. It seems to take Haeger 1/2 a season to come around, then he does good. Floyd has good stuff but like most pitchers just needs to throw strikes. Besides, they are both only like 23 or 24.

[Gregory Pratt]

Yeah, and that guy built a World Series championship baseball team. Sorry I give him the benefit of the doubt, before anyone else here.

 

You know, I've always had a softspot for Kenny Williams but I can hardly stand the man since 2006, and the decline of our relationship has accelerated with this season. As many know, I have serious issues with Sox ownership, management and development, and they've worsened over time. The more I think about it, in fact, the more I begin to subscribe to the idea that KW "lucked" into 2005 more than anything. Iguchi was definitely a stroke of luck: he overpriced himself so everyone said "Go away" because a) he was asking for too much money and b.) they had Kaz on their mind, so when he fell into our laps, it was luck (or maybe fate), because they had only seen him on video and only signed him so that Willie Harris didn't have to play second base. Then there's the general flukiness of the season (specifically: bullpen), which isn't to call the team a fluke or the season, but there's something incredibly lucky when most of your relievers have career years.

 

See, some GMs assemble consistently great teams, or great-for-a-few-years teams, but not KW's 2005 White Sox. They could never repeat, IMO, what they did that year with that offense and that bullpen, and it shows with the fates of most of those relievers and the team now.

 

Besides that, though, there's the fact that Kenny has now, by my count, gambled on three awful pitchers: Masset, Adkins and Floyd, seeing in them what absolutely nobody else sees in baseball (warning: hyperbole precedes, I know -- but hyperbole is based in truth). There's his arrogant, increasingly irritating demeanor and attitude. There's his, and the organization's, refusal to give a no-trade clauses, which leads me to believe that there are going to be serious issues signing any serious free agent in the future, if we were even willing to shell out the money and years to someone who didn't "grow up" in the "White Sox family." And there are a million other things about him that are off to me. I've said it before: if I trusted Reinsdorf to hire a competent replacement, I'd be in favor of scrapping KW, but with our luck -- we'd wind up with Darrin Jackson!

 

I guess what I'm saying is: even bad GMs get lucky and win a title once or twice. (Probably once.)

[SouthSide2004]

I guess what I'm saying is: even bad GMs get lucky and win a title once or twice. (Probably once.)

 

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

[SouthSide2004]

I guess what I'm saying is: even bad GMs get lucky and win a title once or twice. (Probably once.)

 

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

1. You should get out more. Talk to more people!

2. I absolutely stand by it.

[Gregory Pratt]

I should add: I'm not declaring something stupid like "every dog has its day." I'm saying: "Just because your team won, doesn't mean you're a good GM." If your organization goes to hell thereafter, and was less-than exemplary before, that's a truer measure, IMO.

[SoxFan77]

Greg, I completely agree with you on what you said about KW. His track record prior to and after 05..Less than Stellar to be nice. His Pens have always been pile of scrap heap hoping for 2005 all the time. And Until Ozzie got here, his SP was just as bad. I think 05, was more Ozzie's mouth telling the media in 04 that this no pitching all hitting machine doesn't win. KW was forced to make changes.. and was lucked into 2005.

 

I let KW slide for 06, but 2007.. is downright his fault. Coming into this year, the team didn't fix any of the holes of 06, instead he created more holes and we have no one in our farm system to replace them. Our Pen was an issue in 06, yet we let Riske go to the Royals, and instead go with "power" arms, that didn't work on other teams. Our Big FA signing was Toby Hall, who was needed but we also needed a CF/LF as well. We needed a SS and we are left with Uribe, who contuines to make stupid play after stupid play. Yet we were told when we question his moves that he is all knowing... and we the fans don't know s***. Now he has a 100mil payroll and tied with the Royals, who are on the rise, while we keep falling.

 

The sad part is JR will let him stay on and continue to ruin this franchise all because of 2005. Personally I would like to see him rebuild from within, yes its going to suck for a while, but looking at DET/CLE and Minny.. They have mini dynasty build while we had one magical year and then faded away. I could take losing till 09/10 time to rebuild a team from our own farm system, not have a 100mil payroll. Money doesn't equal winning..just ask the Yankees and Cubs how well that has worked the last 10 years.

[29andPoplar]

In hindsight he took too many gambles with this roster and has lost on almost every one.

 

To me there is nothing wrong with picking up young pitchers with good arms, hoping to unlock their potential. Lots of teams do this but Williams and staff stacked the deck with these guys, banking on all or most to perform. Obviously that didn't happen. If there is good news, most of the guys he traded for these underachievers aren't worldbeaters either - Gload is useful but has his own injury issues, Cotts is in AAA, etc.

 

In a season filled with disappintment, in my eyes Massett is one of the biggest. I respect Steve Stone's opinion and he identified Masset as having tons of talent. So did White Sox pro scouting but somewhere along the way he has been handled wrong. Of course the player should also take his fair share of blame for underperforming.

 

One thing they need to do is to start better. Guillen has already admitted he needs to change his approach in spring training and play the regulars more. They need speed and energy and enthusiasm, in my opinion all three are lacking.

 

A final note on this topic, look at what Boston hitters did in the 1st inning to Garland. Long grueling at bats, working a walk on 8 pitch at bats. Guillen wants that but the Sox do not have the personnel. I did notice in this years draft they took several guys who are noted for being pesky at the plate, and to me that is one important part of winning baseball. Not so much Punch and Judy hitters but smarter hitters with a gameplan.

Edited July 23, 2007 by 29andPoplar

[joeynach]

Just release him if no one will trade for him. Hes hurting this roster by taking up a spot for some other starter to get some MLB experience. Really Id rather eat the $10 Mil then let him play, hes done he cant throw over 90.