Contreras

[Balta1701]

Just release him if no one will trade for him. Hes hurting this roster by taking up a spot for some other starter to get some MLB experience. Really Id rather eat the $10 Mil then let him play, hes done he cant throw over 90.

You're not eating $10 mil to non-tender him, you're eating his whole $20mil+ contract I believe

[SoxFan77]

You're not eating $10 mil to non-tender him, you're eating his whole $20mil+ contract I believe

 

And when was the last time JR ate a contract.

[Yossarian]

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I don't think it's dumb at all. It happens not just in sports, but in industry too.

 

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Can we put him in jail with uribe??

[Yossarian]

I should add: I'm not declaring something stupid like "every dog has its day." I'm saying: "Just because your team won, doesn't mean you're a good GM." If your organization goes to hell thereafter, and was less-than exemplary before, that's a truer measure, IMO.

So many of us waited so long for 05, for me anyway the reality exceeded expectations. It was great, but I wanted it to be the start of success, not the end. KW has lots to answer for, and I think your assessments of him are for the most part highly accurate.

[WCSox]

But then again, at some point, maybe you do have to give it a shot. Guy throwing up a 90 mph fastball and a big breaking forkball could be pretty good out of the pen.

 

Not sure if you want a guy who has lead the league in wild pitches in middle relief, especially if he inherits runners. That might get as ugly as AJ catching Haeger.

 

[WCSox]

I guess what I'm saying is: even bad GMs get lucky and win a title once or twice. (Probably once.)

 

It's interesting that even a good GM like Billy Beane has yet to win a pennant, much less a championship.

 

Considering that KW was able to unload a washed-up Freddy and his $10 million tag AND dump a floundering McCarthy for Danks PLUS additional prospects just this off-season, I'd say that he's still a halfway decent GM.

 

[WCSox]

I should add: I'm not declaring something stupid like "every dog has its day." I'm saying: "Just because your team won, doesn't mean you're a good GM." If your organization goes to hell thereafter, and was less-than exemplary before, that's a truer measure, IMO.

 

The Sox were in hell long before Kenny was hired.

[Dick Allen]

It's interesting that even a good GM like Billy Beane has yet to win a pennant, much less a championship.

 

Considering that KW was able to unload a washed-up Freddy and his $10 million tag AND dump a floundering McCarthy for Danks PLUS additional prospects just this off-season, I'd say that he's still a halfway decent GM.

Before you hurt Kenny by patting him on the back for the McCarthy trade keep in mind Danks numbers aren't as good as McCarthy's were last year and you called him "floundering". Also the other "prospect" had an ERA over 7.00, and couldn't throw a strike. Unloading Garcia was obvious, and anything he got back would have been considered a good deal. The fact of the matter was the GM genius took a bullpen that was bad, and made it into perhaps the worst bullpen in team history, and now has assembled a team with a payroll over $100 million that has no playoff chance and is tied with KC. So please forgive me if trusting every move this guy makes just because the team won in 2005 when he lucked out he didn't get Jason Kendall, or Jared Wright or Omar Vizquel and the Angels luckily waived Bobby Jenks. Even Hawk changed his mind on AJ, and Iguchi was available cheap because of Kaz Matsui's struggles. Any of the previous doesn't happen, KW would be seen as incompetent by 95% of White Sox fans.

[29andPoplar]

Before you hurt Kenny by patting him on the back for the McCarthy trade keep in mind Danks numbers aren't as good as McCarthy's were last year and you called him "floundering". Also the other "prospect" had an ERA over 7.00, and couldn't throw a strike. Unloading Garcia was obvious, and anything he got back would have been considered a good deal. The fact of the matter was the GM genius took a bullpen that was bad, and made it into perhaps the worst bullpen in team history, and now has assembled a team with a payroll over $100 million that has no playoff chance and is tied with KC. So please forgive me if trusting every move this guy makes just because the team won in 2005 when he lucked out he didn't get Jason Kendall, or Jared Wright or Omar Vizquel and the Angels luckily waived Bobby Jenks. Even Hawk changed his mind on AJ, and Iguchi was available cheap because of Kaz Matsui's struggles. Any of the previous doesn't happen, KW would be seen as incompetent by 95% of White Sox fans.

 

Pretty much agree on Garcia.

 

I struggle though with the apparant viewpoint of, it was all luck that certain things didn't happen (didn't get Kendall, Vizquel, got Jenks) ... and yet the bullpen situation is squarely pinned on him.

 

We don't know how close any of those moves that didn't materialize were. We do know the White Sox wouldn't go an extra contract year for Vizquel which in retrospect wasn't a bad choice. The staff has to get credit for seeing something in Jenks, other teams avoided him like the plague.

 

I do agree though, he gambled big time on the bullpen for this year and it's been mostly snake eyes. Bad, bad, bad. Now he has to clean this mess up. The only good thing I can see is they've gotten a look at some of these minor league arms and know what they can / can not do. Mostly "can not" as I view it.

[Gregory Pratt]

The Sox were in hell long before Kenny was hired.

 

And will be long after, at this rate.

 

As fathom says, Thank God we won when we had the chance.

[Gregory Pratt]

The staff has to get credit for seeing something in Jenks, other teams avoided him like the plague.

 

People avoided him because he had a drug problem, drinking problems and attitude problems, including a history of violence. We didn't see anything in his arm that anybody else didn't see. We just needed him and took the risk on him, but we didn't see anything different that other teams didn't see.

[WCSox]

Before you hurt Kenny by patting him on the back

 

Oh, forgive me for not participating in the childish, knee-jerk piling-on act.

 

for the McCarthy trade keep in mind Danks numbers aren't as good as McCarthy's were last year and you called him "floundering".

 

Why would you compare a starting pitcher's numbers to those of a guy who worked exclusively out of the 'pen? Oh, right, because that's the only way that you can make this deal look negative. Would you not say that McCarthy is "floundering" this year?

 

Unloading Garcia was obvious, and anything he got back would have been considered a good deal.

 

Finding a GM stupid enough to take Freddy and the $10 million he was owed was enormous. Way to avoid giving Kenny any credit whatsoever!

 

So please forgive me if trusting every move this guy makes just because the team won in 2005 when he lucked out

 

Yeah, the contributions from Contreras, Garcia, Jenks, and AJ were all "luck." Good one!

 

Nobody ever said that Kenny was some sort of "genius", so I don't understand where the hyperbole is coming from.

 

and the Angels luckily waived Bobby Jenks

 

Yep, all luck again!

 

[Dick Allen]

Oh, forgive me for not participating in the childish, knee-jerk piling-on act.

Why would you compare a starting pitcher's numbers to those of a guy who worked exclusively out of the 'pen? Oh, right, because that's the only way that you can make this deal look negative. Would you not say that McCarthy is "floundering" this year?

Finding a GM stupid enough to take Freddy and the $10 million he was owed was enormous. Way to avoid giving Kenny any credit whatsoever!

Yeah, the contributions from Contreras, Garcia, Jenks, and AJ were all "luck." Good one!

 

Nobody ever said that Kenny was some sort of "genius", so I don't understand where the hyperbole is coming from.

Yep, all luck again!

It is lucky that a guy who can throw 100 and close out games becomes available on waivers. Freddy was easy to move. He won 17 games last season even though danger signs were all around. Ozzie said he would win 20 in 2007 after they traded him. Maybe he shouldn't be helping with personnel decisions. If you don't think AJ fell into KW's lap and KW did go on record as saying he would not be a White Sox, and if you don't think its lucky that Oakland gave Pittsburgh something the Pirates wanted more than what KW was offering and if you don't think its lucky Matsui's tank with the Mets kept Iguchi affordable, Iand if you don't think its lucky the Yankees outbid KW for Wright, which would have ended any of Iguchi and AJ being White Sox, keep drinking the KW kool aid. I won't take the championship away from him, he deserves credit for that. But I don't believe it should stop anyone from criticizing his blunders of which there are plenty. Everyone has them. Sorry, I won't judge the McCarthy trade until a few years from now. It certainly didn't help the 2007 White Sox much and I don't see where it is a deal that couldn't be turned down. Masset blows, and Danks may or may not be as good as McCarthy when its all said and done.

[CWSGuy406]

Besides that, though, there's the fact that Kenny has now, by my count, gambled on three awful pitchers: Masset, Adkins and Floyd, seeing in them what absolutely nobody else sees in baseball (warning: hyperbole precedes, I know -- but hyperbole is based in truth).

 

Gambled on three awful pitchers? In Masset and Floyd's case, neither were centerpieces in the deal. Adkins? Yeah, that one was bad, but that was in the early part of Kenny's GM career -- I feel he's gotten a lot better since then. That's not to say that Kenny didn't overrate any of the above three -- but these issues with Kenny are far down on the reasons why he should be canned.

 

You've also become waaaay too biased to even comment about Floyd at this point, or so it appears. There were several people who still liked Floyd at the time of the trade, most notably John Sickels. I know it's the "cool" thing to still rip Kenny about that trade -- hell, just look at the thread of the trade, just about everyone wanted Kenny's head on a platter after the deal -- but for anyone to even bring up Floyd's name in a negative light is simply ridiculous.

 

As far as the whole luck thing about certain players like Jenks, Iguchi, Contreras... You can spin it that way to make it seem like every move is lucky. The Sox were lucky to draft Mark Buehrle -- afterall, every other team had a chance to draft him, 30+ times over. The Twins were lucky to get Johan -- afterall, Houston let him go.

[daa84]

It is lucky that a guy who can throw 100 and close out games becomes available on waivers. Freddy was easy to move. He won 17 games last season even though danger signs were all around. Ozzie said he would win 20 in 2007 after they traded him. Maybe he shouldn't be helping with personnel decisions. If you don't think AJ fell into KW's lap and KW did go on record as saying he would not be a White Sox, and if you don't think its lucky that Oakland gave Pittsburgh something the Pirates wanted more than what KW was offering and if you don't think its lucky Matsui's tank with the Mets kept Iguchi affordable, Iand if you don't think its lucky the Yankees outbid KW for Wright, which would have ended any of Iguchi and AJ being White Sox, keep drinking the KW kool aid. I won't take the championship away from him, he deserves credit for that. But I don't believe it should stop anyone from criticizing his blunders of which there are plenty. Everyone has them. Sorry, I won't judge the McCarthy trade until a few years from now. It certainly didn't help the 2007 White Sox much and I don't see where it is a deal that couldn't be turned down. Masset blows, and Danks may or may not be as good as McCarthy when its all said and done.

there is a fine line between lucky and opportunistic....was it lucky that jenks was on waivers? sure...but that means alot of other GMs could have had him before kenny, so you have to give him credit for being the one to get him....is it lucky that the market for Japanese middle infielders was crap after matsui? yeah, but KW was the only GM to take that risk....Pierzynski was basically out of a job and nobody else wanted to take a shot at him....was that luck, or was KW smart to take the chance on him? did he get lucky with hermanson? sure, but you have to give him credit for providing insurance on shingo

 

Dont forget Kenny was able to acquire pods + vizcaino + 8 Million (el duque 4 mil + AJ 2 + tadahito 2) for carlos lee....thats 5 pieces for 1 (which is the type "one player for many pieces" deal that the 08 sox desperately need)...so you have to give him credit for that

 

was KW lucky? Sure. Unless you can spend like the yankees you have to get a little, maybe alot lucky to win a W.S. but the fact of that matter is that you also have to take those risks, and many of them will work, many wont. In a year like 2005 many of them worked out for kenny. in 07, very few of them did. you win some you lose some....the years when you have all those risks work in your favor are the years you win 110 ball games.

[daa84]

You've also become waaaay too biased to even comment about Floyd at this point, or so it appears. There were several people who still liked Floyd at the time of the trade, most notably John Sickels. I know it's the "cool" thing to still rip Kenny about that trade -- hell, just look at the thread of the trade, just about everyone wanted Kenny's head on a platter after the deal -- but for anyone to even bring up Floyd's name in a negative light is simply ridiculous.

pratt has been the most outspoken against one player on this board ive seen in a while ....hes entitled to his opinion, and i respect that he doenst think gavin floyd will ever be good. Quite frankly though, throw floyd out of that deal and just get gio and i still think its a decent trade for the white sox.....freddy was an expensive pitcher with 1 year left on his contract, decreased velo on his fastball, a body that got bigger and bigger following a report that he had been smoking pot in venezuela and we got a guy who is right now was ranked as the 24th best prospect in baseball according to baseballamericas top 25 midseason update...ahead of guys like ellsbury, barton, brignac, laroche, morales......not a terrible return for guy who had been as healthy as scott podsednik this year and cost 10 mil

[shoota]

People avoided him because he had a drug problem, drinking problems and attitude problems, including a history of violence. We didn't see anything in his arm that anybody else didn't see. We just needed him and took the risk on him, but we didn't see anything different that other teams didn't see.

 

Don't forget about Jenks's injury history.

 

I'm far from the most informed fan of players' personal lives, but I don't recall hearing Jenks had a drug problem? History of violence?

[VAfan]

I don't think anyone suggested what should be the obvious choice for Jose right now -- put him on the disabled list. Maybe he says he's not hurt, but his lost velocity says otherwise. They could shut him down for the rest of the year, or try to bring him back in September to see if he can win a few games and show some value in the trade market.

 

Jose righting himself during that 2005 season and turning into a #1 horse set up that team to win the World Series. We weren't winning with Mark Buehrle as the #1 guy. And he kept it up the first half of last year. But then it all went in the crapper. You have to believe something physical happened to him last year to turn him into what he is now. Because he hasn't just been bad this year, he was bad all of the second half of last year.

 

So, I say, fix his body and trade him, or bring him back. But you can't just eat his contract, and he's not an answer for the bullpen.

[WCSox]

keep drinking the KW kool aid.

 

I'm Kool-Aid-free here. KW isn't half the GM that he thinks he is, but he's about 10 times what you'll admit that he is. As was said a few posts ago, KW certainly is "opportunistic."

 

If you want to criticize the current farm system and his role in that during his tenure as Scouting Director, I completely agree. But if you want to blow off his success as "luck", go right ahead. I know better.

 

[southsideirish71]

I don't think anyone suggested what should be the obvious choice for Jose right now -- put him on the disabled list. Maybe he says he's not hurt, but his lost velocity says otherwise. They could shut him down for the rest of the year, or try to bring him back in September to see if he can win a few games and show some value in the trade market.

 

Jose righting himself during that 2005 season and turning into a #1 horse set up that team to win the World Series. We weren't winning with Mark Buehrle as the #1 guy. And he kept it up the first half of last year. But then it all went in the crapper. You have to believe something physical happened to him last year to turn him into what he is now. Because he hasn't just been bad this year, he was bad all of the second half of last year.

 

So, I say, fix his body and trade him, or bring him back. But you can't just eat his contract, and he's not an answer for the bullpen.

 

This is like a disclosure on a house. If you dont have medical proof, say as in a MRI, it is only conjecture and bulls*** that he is injured. You can still send him off with a buyer beware(drop in velocity) This is about getting the money off the books. If you want to see the 2005 Contreras again, I suggest you buy the commemorative video. You can see it all the time. You realize that pitchers, get older, have wear and tear on their shoulders and bodies. You realize that Contreras abused the living piss out of himself when he was pitching for cuba, lots of innings and pitches under that right shoulder. The worst thing that could happen, is if we take a peek at that shoulder and you see a partially torn labrum, or other tears and rips. Maybe a fraying of the shoulder. Something that would put him on a long road to recovery, and would basically cost us money. If you ask him about his health, and he says he feels fine. Then you asked and you dont open pandoras box anymore. Maybe Garcia had shoulder issues last year, maybe he didnt. But we sit here with Gio and Floyd. And thats a hell of a lot better than a pitcher who has been shut down in his walk year with a bum shoulder.

Edited July 23, 2007 by southsideirish71

[29andPoplar]

We just needed him and took the risk on him, but we didn't see anything different that other teams didn't see.

 

Absolutely correct. The additional item is, KW and staff put in the waiver claim, other teams didn't, then worked closely with him to get his weight down, get into better habits, grow up a bit, etc.

 

The word opportunistic was used in this thread, it certainly applies, but to me credit is due to the baseball operations staff in terms of believing in this guy and helping him become a productive major leaguer.

[Gregory Pratt]

Gambled on three awful pitchers? In Masset and Floyd's case, neither were centerpieces in the deal. Adkins? Yeah, that one was bad, but that was in the early part of Kenny's GM career -- I feel he's gotten a lot better since then. That's not to say that Kenny didn't overrate any of the above three -- but these issues with Kenny are far down on the reasons why he should be canned.

 

You've also become waaaay too biased to even comment about Floyd at this point, or so it appears. There were several people who still liked Floyd at the time of the trade, most notably John Sickels. I know it's the "cool" thing to still rip Kenny about that trade -- hell, just look at the thread of the trade, just about everyone wanted Kenny's head on a platter after the deal -- but for anyone to even bring up Floyd's name in a negative light is simply ridiculous.

 

What'd Sickels write? PS: it isn't the "Cool" thing to rip Kenny after that trade. A bunch of people say positive things about Floyd. A ton of us who don't believe in Floyd are still in the closet. I'm pretty open about how I feel, about my doubts, but I know there are people even more skeptical than I who don't speak out.

 

PPS: Kenny doesn't make the McCarthy trade without Masset, too. Masset, of course, wowed him with the Jenks tick, and he liked the thought of getting more than one for one.

 

Don't forget about Jenks's injury history.

 

I'm far from the most informed fan of players' personal lives, but I don't recall hearing Jenks had a drug problem? History of violence?

 

Fighting with a lot of teammates. There are articles about it around (I specifically remember a fight on the team bus). Google it! And you didn't know Jenks had a problem with vices? He did. It's fairly well-known.

 

Anyway, those are the reasons nobody else picked him up but we needed a closer so we took the chance. It worked out well for us when we won the Series. It worked out well for him when he got married, settled down here in the city and got happy, and it's worked out well for his family of course. That's why I say God bless Bobby. His life's settled down, and he's kept the ninth inning relatively good over the last two years.

[CWSGuy406]

What'd Sickels write?

 

He basically described Floyd as needing a "change of scenery" but that he still liked him, citing the same AFL 'readings' (ie he still possessed the plus fastball and breaking ball) that Kenny talked about. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm sure someone else can back me up.

 

PS: it isn't the "Cool" thing to rip Kenny after that trade. A bunch of people say positive things about Floyd.

 

I don't know if you were here a whole lot in the offseason but the Garcia trade thread was mass chaos. I'd say at least 75% of the people expressed a negative sentiment on the deal. People have 'cooled' on it because a.) Garcia hasn't done anything well and b.) both the guys we 've got back have performed just about as well as could have been expected (maybe not Floyd, but let's not get into semantics).

 

I think people back up Floyd because there's nothing left for him to do in AAA. Over his past eight (minor league) starts he has an ERA just north of 2.00. I don't know if he has what it takes to become an average major league starter, but I want to see. Pretty much the same thing I said about Brian Anderson going into the season.

 

PPS: Kenny doesn't make the McCarthy trade without Masset, too.

 

This may be true, but that doesn't make what I said false -- Danks was the centerpiece. And so far he got it right on Danks when a lot of people had their doubts. So I guess what I'm saying is that it's better he got it 'wrong' on Masset than getting it 'wrong' on Danks. Would it have been better if Masset ws throwing 96-97 out of our 'pen with a 3.00 ERA like Kenny said? Sure -- but it's still, IMO, a minor quibble on the list of reasons why Kenny should be canned. In fact, without thinking about it a whole lot, I'd say that this hypothetical list could pretty much begin and end with the the player development (or lack thereof) during Williams' tenure.

[Gregory Pratt]

He basically described Floyd as needing a "change of scenery" but that he still liked him, citing the same AFL 'readings' (ie he still possessed the plus fastball and breaking ball) that Kenny talked about. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm sure someone else can back me up.

 

That's hardly a ringing endorsement.

 

I don't know if you were here a whole lot in the offseason but the Garcia trade thread was mass chaos.

 

Yeah, but since, there are a ton of people who rise to Floyd's defense.

 

Believe me, nobody wants Gavin Floyd to succeed more than I do. But almost everybody expects more from him than I do.