Duane Shaffer Fires on KW

[Chisoxfn]

Good runner I hear... Very good at "bash and dash", too.

 

I was bummed when we lost Fontaine (I think thats who ended up leaving for Seattle to rejoin Bavasi) because he was very well thought of in the scouting circles and was largely given a ton of credit for the strong Angel systems of the late 90's.

[heirdog]

Williams is the GM. The farm system is his responsibility. As Hopper said in A Bug's Life: "First rule of leadership: everything is your fault ..." I'm not saying that changes shouldn't have been made, I think they should have. But if Williams actually shifted blame to Duane Shaffer for the state of the organization, that's less than admirable.

 

Agree with the statement above, even if you use Hopper as the source (instead of say, Colin Powell) but its accountability vs. responsibility. Ken Williams, as the GM, is accountable for everything which he oversees. Duane Shaffer as Director of Scouting (or whatever his title was) is responsible for the scouting and the draft. So as KW is accountable he must look at the person that is responsible, in this case for the draft, and make any necessary changes (e.g. drafting paradigm shift, firing those responsible, etc). If he stood still and did nothing but only accepted blame, you would say: "Hey that guy has shown good accountability."

 

If he actually makes a change for an area that has been lacking, then you can say "Hey, he has shown leadership in diagnosing a problem and trying to remedy it." Implicit in this second scenario is Ken Williams taking blame saying that "Hey, as a leader, I let this happen so let me now make a change."

Edited July 24, 2007 by heirdog

[29andPoplar]

I was bummed when we lost Fontaine (I think thats who ended up leaving for Seattle to rejoin Bavasi) because he was very well thought of in the scouting circles and was largely given a ton of credit for the strong Angel systems of the late 90's.

 

Bob Fontaine, yes. He was an outside perspective, not one of the White Sox lifers. As mentioned I expect to see more people from other organizations brought in, much like they brought in Wilder.

 

 

[klaus kinski]

An undistinguished list to be sure. I wonder how many Boras clients got passed on that are doing decent in other systems? Just curious.

[BearSox]

I would have really liked to have seen Wilder get the scouting job. He seems pretty respected and highly regarded around in baseball. IIRC, he was a front runner for the Boston GM job a while back.

 

What would you guys think of Hahn as the GM?

Edited July 24, 2007 by BearSox

[elrockinMT]

Surprise, surprise.. another Sox employee who has/had issue with Kenny. It's to bad that Kenny is able to continue to hide behind doors about this stuff. Personally, I can't wait till he is canned and all the real dirt is shaken out of the executive rugs.

Kudos to Duane for comparing Kenny to Larry Himes. I'm sure Kenny flipped a few tables after reading that one.

 

 

Steff, I have always valued your insight into front office stuff concerning to Sox. Do you really think KW is a problem though? Should he have credit for winning in 2005? Or is there more to the inner workings we don't know such as someone else actually being the brains and KW trying to take credit for success built on others efforts? Really what I have seen in the last month or so is talk that other GM's are catching on to KW's tactics, but I am not sure I see Reinsdorf firing him over this years failures. But, I want to know more...

Edited July 24, 2007 by elrockinMT

[heirdog]

Steff, I have always valued your insight into front office stuff concerning to Sox. Do you really think KW is a problem though? Should he have credit for winning in 2005? Or is there more to the inner workings we don't know such as someone else actually being the brains and KW trying to take credit for success built on others efforts? Really what I have seen in the last month or so is talk that other GM's are catching on to KW's tactics, but I am not sure I see Reinsdorf firing him over this years failures. But, I want to know more...

 

 

And what tactics would those be? If GMs were getting fleeced by KW in the past and didn't know it, then they should be the ones fired. I don't think KW has any tactics he uses with other GMs. He goes after what he wants aggressively and the other GMs have the option to listen or hang up. From a fan's perspective, the only issue I have with KW is that he falls in love with a player and will pursue the player over and over until he has him at whatever cost (i.e. Vasquez, although I didn't mind the trade that brought him here). That type of tunnel vision could burn him at some point or make him miss some other prospects/players because he is pursuing that one elusive guy but so far its been okay.

[klaus kinski]

Early returns on Fields, though are pretty darn Good. A big attaboy for who drafted him

[WSoxMatt]

Lets raid the Marlins stock of scouts, they are quite good also

[Steff]

Steff, I have always valued your insight into front office stuff concerning to Sox. Do you really think KW is a problem though? Should he have credit for winning in 2005? Or is there more to the inner workings we don't know such as someone else actually being the brains and KW trying to take credit for success built on others efforts? Really what I have seen in the last month or so is talk that other GM's are catching on to KW's tactics, but I am not sure I see Reinsdorf firing him over this years failures. But, I want to know more...

 

 

Yes, I do think Kenny is the problem and have thought that since '03. I will be the first to admit I am totally biased in wanting him canned, but I can also evaluate specific accomplishments of his and praise him appropriately. Do I credit him for 2005? No. I credit the players who played their asses off, and the managerial decisions that paid off. Yes, Kenny assembled the team (with LOTS of help from Ozzie), but if not for the chemistry between the players, no way we would have won it all. I don't really understand what you mean about Kenny's "tactics". He does what he does the way he does it and that's that. Sadly that "that" is a lot of times an arrogant jerk, IMO of course. :rolleyes

 

Will he be fired... I have no idea. Should he... I say yes, but I am speaking with my heart as I smell the stentch that has become White Sox baseball this year.

[29andPoplar]

Yes, I do think Kenny is the problem and have thought that since '03. I will be the first to admit I am totally biased in wanting him canned, but I can also evaluate specific accomplishments of his and praise him appropriately. Do I credit him for 2005? No. I credit the players who played their asses off, and the managerial decisions that paid off. Yes, Kenny assembled the team (with LOTS of help from Ozzie), but if not for the chemistry between the players, no way we would have won it all. I don't really understand what you mean about Kenny's "tactics". He does what he does the way he does it and that's that. Sadly that "that" is a lot of times an arrogant jerk, IMO of course. :rolleyes

 

Will he be fired... I have no idea. Should he... I say yes, but I am speaking with my heart as I smell the stentch that has become White Sox baseball this year.

 

Interesting. Especially the 2nd sentence so if you don't mind, I would like to ask, why are you totally biased in wanting him canned? Thx.

[29andPoplar]

And what I hear from a few people who work for the White Sox about Williams is this -

 

- extremely hard working

- ultra competitive

- has a short fuse

- demands excellence

- often will snap at people and then (sometimes) apologize later

- when he doesn't want to be bothered he will clearly show that on his face (stay clear of me!)

- tends to hole up with those he completely trusts (Rick Hahn especially)

- takes losing extremely hard and sometimes blows off steam in ways that cause hard feelings (verbally)

 

[WCSox]

- ultra competitive

- has a short fuse

- takes losing extremely hard and sometimes blows off steam in ways that cause hard feelings (verbally)

 

Sounds a lot like Bill Polian. I've seen him throw stuff across his skybox at the RCA Dome.

 

[santo=dorf]

They also got very lucky. They really wanted Mike Harkey, but the Cubs took him, so they had to settle for Black Jack. They also wanted Jeff Jackson, but the Phillies took the Simeon High School bust, and the Sox took Frank Thomas. I think Fernandez was drafted by Milwaukee or someone earlier and didn't sign. They did pick up guys like Bere and Durham in later rounds. Himes also picked up Roberto Hernandez from the Angels for minor league crap which was a coup.

Very interesting and it's the first time I ever read anything like that.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Yes, I do think Kenny is the problem and have thought that since '03. I will be the first to admit I am totally biased in wanting him canned, but I can also evaluate specific accomplishments of his and praise him appropriately. Do I credit him for 2005? No. I credit the players who played their asses off, and the managerial decisions that paid off. Yes, Kenny assembled the team (with LOTS of help from Ozzie), but if not for the chemistry between the players, no way we would have won it all. I don't really understand what you mean about Kenny's "tactics". He does what he does the way he does it and that's that. Sadly that "that" is a lot of times an arrogant jerk, IMO of course. :rolleyes

 

Will he be fired... I have no idea. Should he... I say yes, but I am speaking with my heart as I smell the stentch that has become White Sox baseball this year.

 

So he gets no credit for 2005 but gets to take all the credit for 2007? I really don't doubt that KW is an asshole. He's a Stanford graduate, played pro ball, now a GM of an MLB franchise which won a WS... he's accomplished a lot and a certain element of arrogance can almost be expected. I don't see where that attitude would exempt him from being effective in his job. Is demanding excellence out of your employees, even in a harsh manner, a bad trait to have in a leadership position?

 

Personally, I don't blame the state of our recent drafts/ml system on KW. It's enough of a job just to manage the personnel of a ML club. He, much like other GMs, is forced to lean heavily on his scouting and development heads. KW is now in a position with the big league club that he REALLY needs to be able to pull a couple of kids to contribute but there just isn't anyone there. He HAS to hold someone accountable for that and Shaffer was the scapegoat. I have no problem whatsoever with that decision.

 

[Steff]

So he gets no credit for 2005 but gets to take all the credit for 2007? I really don't doubt that KW is an asshole. He's a Stanford graduate, played pro ball, now a GM of an MLB franchise which won a WS... he's accomplished a lot and a certain element of arrogance can almost be expected. I don't see where that attitude would exempt him from being effective in his job. Is demanding excellence out of your employees, even in a harsh manner, a bad trait to have in a leadership position?

 

Personally, I don't blame the state of our recent drafts/ml system on KW. It's enough of a job just to manage the personnel of a ML club. He, much like other GMs, is forced to lean heavily on his scouting and development heads. KW is now in a position with the big league club that he REALLY needs to be able to pull a couple of kids to contribute but there just isn't anyone there. He HAS to hold someone accountable for that and Shaffer was the scapegoat. I have no problem whatsoever with that decision.

 

 

I have never said anything remotely close to that and I have on several occasions laughed my ass off at the lynch mob around here that seems to blame everyone BUT the players on the field. The same guys I give credit for the win, I give "credit" for the losses.

 

 

[Whitewashed in '05]

KW's mouth has definitely made me mad over the years and it isn't like he's dealing with a lot of guys like Sheffy.

 

You look around the league and there are always situations where people have left organizations with sour grapes, but it's like that's a routine with the sox.

 

There is a reason why KW and Ozzie like each other so much, they both can't keep their mouthes shut and don't learn from their stubbornness.

[Chisoxfn]

Kenny as a personsell/gm is very good. The things that bother me are the way he handles certain situations from a PR standpoint. Basically put I think he could be a bit smarter in the public eye but as a whole he knows his stuff, works hard, has severe passion, and is not afraid to be critisized (and the key to being successful is never being afraid, however, it doesn't mean you shouldn't evaluate and take in the opinions of others and I think Kenny does go to his people a lot).

 

Basically put, I still rank him among the 5-7 best GM's in the game.

[Chisoxfn]

KW's mouth has definitely made me mad over the years and it isn't like he's dealing with a lot of guys like Sheffy.

 

You look around the league and there are always situations where people have left organizations with sour grapes, but it's like that's a routine with the sox.

 

There is a reason why KW and Ozzie like each other so much, they both can't keep their mouthes shut and don't learn from their stubbornness.

is it really? Think about all the former Sox players that are brought into the front office/coaching staff or just public relations in general. I think its actually the opposite and the org does a very good job making sure very few people leave with sour grapes.

[Whitewashed in '05]

is it really? Think about all the former Sox players that are brought into the front office/coaching staff or just public relations in general. I think its actually the opposite and the org does a very good job making sure very few people leave with sour grapes.

I see your point and I agree, but I am not putting the blame on the organization entirely. It's always someone new every year though with the sox. Frank, Widger, Shaffer. Of course I am not saying the people leaving are saints like Maggs with his shady situation, but when people leave without pointing the finger, there's always something to be said.

[NYSox35]

Kenny as a personsell/gm is very good. The things that bother me are the way he handles certain situations from a PR standpoint. Basically put I think he could be a bit smarter in the public eye but as a whole he knows his stuff, works hard, has severe passion, and is not afraid to be critisized (and the key to being successful is never being afraid, however, it doesn't mean you shouldn't evaluate and take in the opinions of others and I think Kenny does go to his people a lot).

 

Basically put, I still rank him among the 5-7 best GM's in the game.

 

MF'ing Bingo, my friend! You have hit the nail on the head. Kenny was and still is one of the very best GMs in the

game today. To top it off, he's our homegrown guy and played a HUGE hand in bringing us the 2005 title.

 

It amazes me how quick people are to "jump" on someone.

Did his plans pertaining to the OF or BP pan out this year? No, they didn't.

Guess what though - we still have the core of a great team and KW will build us back into a winner

again as soon as next season.

 

Get off the guy's back, sit back and get ready to be in the chase again in 2008.

[Soxfest]

KW cannot have it both ways on Sox ML system he has been a part of the problem also.

[WCSox]

Basically put, I still rank him among the 5-7 best GM's in the game.

 

Maybe. Kenny's a wheeler-dealer and I think that his strength worked well with this team and it's weak/overrated farm system when he took the job. He's made a few well-documented bad deals, but the vast majority of his trades/FA signings have been very good and culminated in the Sox winning it all. Should Kenny be with the Sox for the long-term? Maybe not, as scouting and player development aren't his strengths. But he was definitely the right guy at the right time.