Contreras's Contract Extension

[29andPoplar]

I just look at the track Record of our Gm.. If you take out 05, it doesn't look good.

I can't completely agree with this. This is his 7th year on the job, the team has not had a losing season (finished once at 81-81). The team has been 63 games over .500 in the 6 full years Williams has been on the job. They finished 10+ games out of first place only one year.

 

I don't know how the other teams in the division stack up during that same time period. But Williams and staff do have a track record of putting a competitive team on the field.

 

[29andPoplar]

For me, I want us to rebuild,

 

Well SoxFan77 we all have our opinions and wishes but I wouldn't wager on this happening. Whether it's right or wrong they are saying they will try to put a team out there to compete for a pennant. They have said this all along and Williams has always said he will announce it if he plans on doing the total rebuild thing. It hasn't happened and it won't for 2008.

[SoxFan77]

Keep in mind that the team that Larry Himes built, from the ground-up (your way), didn't win a single playoff series. Throwing away solid major-league talent like Paulie for a package of prospects (even really, really good prospects) doesn't guarantee anything.

 

You are right we tried it once, it didn't work here.. That means it will never work here..

That depends on what you define as "success." Detroit has a pennant and 20+ years of misery prior to that. The 21st century Indians teams have been competitive at times, but have one whole playoff appearance and no playoff series wins. And, of course, they haven't won a championship in about 60 years. The Twins have been competitive, but haven't won anything of significance since the early '90s. Sorry, but I wouldn't want to trade places with any of those close-but-not-quite organizations.

 

Funny, didn't we wait over 40 years for our pennant? Hell I wish I could have had to only wait 20 years... "Success" is building a team that competes for a certain time and makes the playoffs more than once every 7..(and counting) years. I would trade places with the Tiggers right now in a heart beat, they have a shot of 2-3 titles..with the Young staff good hitting and great Farm system.

KW very well may not be the right guy for the Sox from here on out. He's obviously not the top GM in the league. That said, I don't hear many Braves fans saying, "Man, I'm sure glad that we have John Schuerholz, instead of that Kenny Williams idiot." Winning the division and crapping out in the playoffs year after year gets old quickly.

14 Chances to win it all.. Exactly how many times has KW teams had a chance?

Oh, really? Tell me how the last-place Royals are going to step up and be contenders in the near future.

 

I would but like most things it will go over your head.

Edited July 27, 2007 by SoxFan77

[SoxFan77]

I can't completely agree with this. This is his 7th year on the job, the team has not had a losing season (finished once at 81-81). The team has been 63 games over .500 in the 6 full years Williams has been on the job. They finished 10+ games out of first place only one year.

 

I don't know how the other teams in the division stack up during that same time period. But Williams and staff do have a track record of putting a competitive team on the field.

 

If you like coming in 2nd in at the time one of the worst divisions in baseball more power to you.. That is like if the Cubs finish 2nd they can brag they had a winning season.. WHOOPPIE

[SoxFan77]

Well SoxFan77 we all have our opinions and wishes but I wouldn't wager on this happening. Whether it's right or wrong they are saying they will try to put a team out there to compete for a pennant. They have said this all along and Williams has always said he will announce it if he plans on doing the total rebuild thing. It hasn't happened and it won't for 2008.

 

29th.. I honestly don't think KW can master a rebuilding plan. I have said for a number of years that our whole farm system has to be overhauled from the top down. Every good team has a good farm system.. We have nothing Fields is the first spect in 7 years to come up and look like MLB player. 1 spect in 7 years.. that is downright awful. We are a middle market team, we need a farm system.. we don't have one.. we won't be ready for another playoff birth until we have one.

[29andPoplar]

If you like coming in 2nd in at the time one of the worst divisions in baseball more power to you.. That is like if the Cubs finish 2nd they can brag they had a winning season.. WHOOPPIE

 

I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, thanks. I never said that, I never said anything close to that.

 

You said you doubted KW's ability to put a competitive team on the field, I pointed out his teams have not had one season under .500 and were 63 games over .500 in the six full seasons of his tenure.

 

There is no set definition for competitive. I would guess though that a franchise that, in six previous years, averages 10+ games over .500 (6 years, 63 aggregate games over) would be judged by most baseball people as competitive.

 

If you define it differently, that is fine.

 

 

[hitlesswonder]

I don't know how the other teams in the division stack up during that same time period. But Williams and staff do have a track record of putting a competitive team on the field.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Williams, but I don't see how anyone can say he has a bad record minus his World Championship (which is already funny -- let's just disregard a World Series year...). He built competitive teams on a relatively tight budget. On a big budget he built a team that won 90 games and would have made the playoffs except for Buehrle being the worst pitcher in baseball in the second half of 2006. This year is the first year that any team of his has been absolutely horrible. Williams big weakness is the state of the Sox minor league system -- which is so bad that it wouldn't be unreasonable to say he should be fired for it....But given the strong record of the franchise at the major league level, I don't think thats wise at this point. I think he's a decent GM.

 

I reserve the right to revise this opinion after the trading deadline.

[hitlesswonder]

Fields is the first spect in 7 years to come up and look like MLB player. 1 spect in 7 years.. that is downright awful. We are a middle market team, we need a farm system.. we don't have one.. we won't be ready for another playoff birth until we have one.

 

Well, there was Rowand (all-star baby!). And McCarthy. And Young (although not with the Sox...). Jenks came up from the minors although he spent more time in the LAA system. And some Sox relievers have gone on th big league careers elsewhere (Rauch, Guerrier,...).

 

[29andPoplar]

Well I certainly do not want to turn this into any sort of argument, I don't think anyone on this site is here for that purpose, but the main point I want to make is it really doesn't matter if White Sox internet posters want a total rebuild. It is not going to happen, at least for 2008. They (mgmt.) has said all along they will try to win every year, subject to their business plan (budget). They have also said if they plan to do a strip down rebuild, they will tell the fan base.

 

Just a few days ago they reiterated they are not doing a total rebuild, they want to try and compete/win in 2008. So that appears to be reality and I hope those who want a total rebuild won't get annoyed or frustrated about it, it's not worth it.

 

As for the farm system, totally agree it needs a big big boost. They need to look hard at player development too. If Wilder is any good you should start to see better results from the player development side. Two positives to point out, Class A Kannapolis is way better than last year, there is some talent there, and the influx of talent into Great Falls Advanced Rookie is leading them to a good season. They have also stepped some guys back who have gobs of raw talent but were overmatched or maybe not getting enough playing time. The OF Salvador Sanchez is a good example.

 

But yes absolutely they need to look really hard at scouting, development, coaching. All of it. And yes I would like to see a couple of people brought in from other capable organizations.

[rangercal]

I Loved the deal , he was our world series ace and was one of the top 3 pitchers in the game for a long time. Considering many sps pitch until they are 40, I didn't see much risk as it looked like Count found his tools.

 

I guess over half the posters in this thread didn't like the deal at the time. Umm yeah right

[SoxFan77]

I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, thanks. I never said that, I never said anything close to that.

 

You said you doubted KW's ability to put a competitive team on the field, I pointed out his teams have not had one season under .500 and were 63 games over .500 in the six full seasons of his tenure.

 

There is no set definition for competitive. I would guess though that a franchise that, in six previous years, averages 10+ games over .500 (6 years, 63 aggregate games over) would be judged by most baseball people as competitive.

 

If you define it differently, that is fine.

 

If you took as that.. I am sorry. I just don't see how not making the playoff is a good thing for a GM, all while completely gutting a farm system to do it. Then to have one of the worse teams in franchise history to his credit. Maybe I am missing something.

 

Let me point this out.. I can have no faith KW will ever put together a winning (make the playoffs) team on the field again. I feel 2005 was luck and that Ozzie was the main reason not KW for the change in thinking, we have gone back to the 2004 days.. and he refuses to rebuild a team that is old and under preforming.

[Kyyle23]

Well, there was Rowand (all-star baby!). And McCarthy. And Young (although not with the Sox...). Jenks came up from the minors although he spent more time in the LAA system. And some Sox relievers have gone on th big league careers elsewhere (Rauch, Guerrier,...).

 

Crede, Buehrle

[hitlesswonder]

I feel 2005 was luck and that Ozzie was the main reason not KW for the change in thinking, we have gone back to the 2004 days.. and he refuses to rebuild a team that is old and under preforming.

The 2004 team wasn't that bad -- they lost Frank Thomas and Ordonez to injuries. That's like 1.900 OPS on the DL. Not that you're wrong about KW never making the playoffs again. That could easily happen. Mark Shapiro hasn't made the playoffs since 2001. And he's a better GM than KW -- he won TSN Exec of the Year in 2005.

Edited July 27, 2007 by hitlesswonder

[TheBigHurt]

Last year Contreras had a HUGE run and at times was considered the best pitcher in baseball. I agree with you, but at that time there was no way of knowing. IMO, this thread is stupid.

[Jeremy]

This thread reeks of 20/20 hindsight bulls***. I'm not convinced it was a bad signing yet either. He might just need the off season or an extended break to heal up. Who really knows? Counting him out for the rest of his career would be foolish. Look at el duque.

 

Certainly, it's possible that that's the case in some instances. However, you really can't imagine that anyone would have been concerned about signing a pitcher coming off the best stretch of his career to a large three year extension through his 37th (40th?!) birthday? If so, that's troubling. I can probably count on one hand the number of pitchers I'd like to pay a large amount of money for their age 35-37 seasons and Jose is not one of them. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it but I can assure you that I for one thought the extension was insane while the ink before the ink had dried and my opinion hasn't changed at all since then.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Williams, but I don't see how anyone can say he has a bad record minus his World Championship (which is already funny -- let's just disregard a World Series year...). He built competitive teams on a relatively tight budget.

 

Kenny inherited a 95 win team with one of the lowest payrolls in the league and a farm system rated amongst the best by Baseball America so keeping the team above .500 shouldn't be considered a huge feat in my mind.

 

I Loved the deal , he was our world series ace and was one of the top 3 pitchers in the game for a long time. Considering many sps pitch until they are 40, I didn't see much risk as it looked like Count found his tools.

 

I guess over half the posters in this thread didn't like the deal at the time. Umm yeah right

 

Huh? A long time? You mean the 2005 season? Because he had an ERA of 5.5 the previous season. Also, by top 3 do you mean top 30? How do you figure that a guy with the 27th best ERA in '05 was one of the three best pitchers in baseball that season? If I had to guess I'd say something like 5% of pitchers are still in the league at 40. A lot of guys don't make it past their 30th birthday because of ineffectiveness and/or injury. Pitching well into your mid and late thirties is extremely difficult.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Jeremy

[rangercal]

Certainly, it's possible that that's the case in some instances. However, you really can't imagine that anyone would have been concerned about signing a pitcher coming off the best stretch of his career to a large three year extension through his 37th (40th?!) birthday? If so, that's troubling. I can probably count on one hand the number of pitchers I'd like to pay a large amount of money for their age 35-37 seasons and Jose is not one of them. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it but I can assure you that I for one thought the extension was insane while the ink before the ink had dried and my opinion hasn't changed at all since then.

 

 

 

Kenny inherited a 95 win team with one of the lowest payrolls in the league and a farm system rated amongst the best by Baseball America so keeping the team above .500 shouldn't be considered a huge feat in my mind.

 

 

 

Huh? A long time? You mean the 2005 season? Because he had an ERA of 5.5 the previous season. Also, by top 3 do you mean top 30? How do you figure that a guy with the 27th best ERA in '05 was one of the three best pitchers in baseball that season? If I had to guess I'd say something like 5% of pitchers are still in the league at 40. A lot of guys don't make it past their 30th birthday because of ineffectiveness and/or injury. Pitching well into your mid and late thirties is extremely difficult.

A championship ring counts for something. Count was clutch in the 2nd half of 05 and yes, he was a top 3 pitcher from mid 05-throught the playoffs and mid 06.

[Felix]

I Loved the deal , he was our world series ace and was one of the top 3 pitchers in the game for a long time. Considering many sps pitch until they are 40, I didn't see much risk as it looked like Count found his tools.

 

I guess over half the posters in this thread didn't like the deal at the time. Umm yeah right

Well, Count was well above 40 at the time of the deal, so yea..

 

And if you don't believe some of the posters beliefs at the time of the deal, check the original extension thread. You'll see that at least my stance hasn't changed, not sure about others.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Felix

[Dick Allen]

Didn't Contreras win his first 9 or so decisions after signing the extension? Every extension signed is a gamble. His is/was because of his age. Who is to say he won't make a semi comeback next year? El Duque looked done and he's been competent. Obviously he is awful right now, and really hasn't been the same since the back issue last year. I would trade him, but not if you have to pick up a nice chunk of his contract. Maybe shut him down early this season and try to prepare him for 2008. The problem with the extension was the Sox were at a disadvantage because Contreras was the stud the second half of 2005 and in the playoffs. He was as good as anybody and the Sox really had little leverage. Sometimes it is good to play things out.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

I would trade places with the Tiggers right now in a heart beat, they have a shot of 2-3 titles..

 

Gary Sheffield and Kenny Rogers are dinosaurs, with the latter coming off of shoulder surgery and pitching like crap right now. Nate Robertson was a one-year wonder and Mike Maroth was so bad that they dealt him. And Todd Jones is old AND bad. They have a solid lineup and a really nice one-two punch of Verlander and Bonderman. And Zumaya will be a solid closer if he can stay healthy. But they don't have the pitching staff that they did a year ago (sound familiar?) and they're going to be relying heavily on aging vets like Sheffield, Pudge, and Maggs to drive in runs. I agree that they're the best team in the Central right now, but I don't see that lasting for the next 2-3 years.

 

I would but like most things it will go over your head.

 

No, you won't because you're dead wrong about the Royals contending any time soon.

 

Not that you're wrong about KW never making the playoffs again. That could easily happen. Mark Shapiro hasn't made the playoffs since 2001. And he's a better GM than KW -- he won TSN Exec of the Year in 2005.

 

And Billy Beane hasn't even won a pennant, yet you'd never know that from his pretentious attitude. He makes John Hart look like a bad-ass.

 

I couldn't care less if the Sox have the best GM in the league. If it doesn't translate into a championship, it doesn't mean a thing. I care about WINNING, and couldn't care less if we do it with Hawk Harrelson as GM, Terry Bevington as manager, and the cast of Major League in our starting lineup.

Edited July 27, 2007 by WCSox

[Jeremy]

A championship ring counts for something. Count was clutch in the 2nd half of 05 and yes, he was a top 3 pitcher from mid 05-throught the playoffs and mid 06.

 

Well the extension was signed before the '06 season and he was signed through '06 with or without the extension so basically what you're saying is that you should give a player a large contract based on 20 starts? That seems crazy to me.

 

 

[hitlesswonder]

Kenny inherited a 95 win team with one of the lowest payrolls in the league and a farm system rated amongst the best by Baseball America so keeping the team above .500 shouldn't be considered a huge feat in my mind.

I don't want to cast myself as a Williams defender...but I guess I'll do it. That farm system ranking turned out to be largely illusory, didn't it? Who panned out from the system that existed in 2000? Crede, Wells, Buehrle, and Garland had graduated to the bigs in 2000 - 2001 hadn't they? Borchard and all the high profile 1999 and 2000 pitchers basically flamed out. In retrospect, it's safe to say it wasn't the best system in baseball. And the major league staff shredded their arms in 2000. I don't think he came into as cushy a situation you paint it. Williams work at the major league level improved significantly. I think he built decent clubs from 2003 through 2006. He rarely made any bad acquisitions in those years.

 

[Dick Allen]

I don't want to cast myself as a Williams defender...but I guess I'll do it. That farm system ranking turned out to be largely illusory, didn't it? Who panned out from the system that existed in 2000? Crede, Wells, Buehrle, and Garland had graduated to the bigs in 2000 - 2001 hadn't they? Borchard and all the high profile 1999 and 2000 pitchers basically flamed out. In retrospect, it's safe to say it wasn't the best system in baseball. And the major league staff shredded their arms in 2000. I don't think he came into as cushy a situation you paint it. Williams work at the major league level improved significantly. I think he built decent clubs from 2003 through 2006. He rarely made any bad acquisitions in those years.

The farm system was definitely overrated. The ironic thing was with Kenny's previous job, that false ranking probably helped him get his current position. He has such a reputation for being this maverick. It seems after the Thome trade, he's really gone conservative. I think one problem is he may be a little too attached to some of the guys that contributed to a WS. He did deal Rowand, but that was Jim Thome he was getting back.

[Balta1701]

The farm system was definitely overrated. The ironic thing was with Kenny's previous job, that false ranking probably helped him get his current position. He has such a reputation for being this maverick. It seems after the Thome trade, he's really gone conservative. I think one problem is he may be a little too attached to some of the guys that contributed to a WS. He did deal Rowand, but that was Jim Thome he was getting back.

I dunno, I think the McCarthy, Cotts, and Garcia deals all argue against this statement.

[max power]

I dunno, I think the McCarthy, Cotts, and Garcia deals all argue against this statement.

I dunno about cotts, but the other two I agree with a great degree of certainty.

[Dick Allen]

I dunno about cotts, but the other two I agree with a great degree of certainty.

Either KW or Ozzie or both hated McCarthy and Garcia had to go because of $, and an expiring contract. I'm sure the velocity drop concerned him as well