Iguchi Traded to Phillies for RP/SP Michael Dubee

[Balta1701]

What kind of deal is this? This is not a good trade IMO and I am not sure just how this is supposed to be helping us unless we sign Dye and Crede. We trade a pretty good 2Bman and keep an overweight underperforming SS? I wonder if there was ever any thought or effort to keep Tad?

Holding onto Tad next year would have been pretty darn silly, with Richar already available and doing well in AAA for less money and with Tad's seemingly declining skills.

[BearSox]

Understood, but like I said, the down side of this deal, unless Tad could somehow have brought A level draft compensation, is minimal. If nothing else, the Sox save a $ million or so and open up a slot for Richar. So even if it was a bad trade and is stupid, it doesn't hurt us that much.

 

Just would have been nice to get someone with a little bit better prospects to make it to MLB eventuall.

well, Dubee is better then the nothing we would get in return for him in the offseason, so I can live with this trade.

[daa84]

i expected a little more....we would have gotten draft picks for iguchi...assuming we offered arbitration...here are the new rules

 

Draft Choice Compensation

1. Type C free agents eliminated in 2006

2. Also in 2006, compensation for type B players becomes indirect (sandwich pick) as opposed to direct compensation from signing Club.

3. Effective 2007, Type A players limited to top 20 percent of each position (down from 30 percent) and Type B players become 21 percent - 40 percent at each position (rather than 31 percent - 50 percent).

4. Salary arbitration offer and acceptance dates move to December 1 and December 7.

 

here is a list of the free agents from last year and who was type A and type B

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=1343042

 

im fairly confident in saying that iguchi would have fallen into either type A or type B

 

so at very least we would have gotten a sandwich pick....so had we kept iguchi, offered him arb. and he left to become a FA, we would have gotten a pick in the 50 range (last years type B compensation were overall 48-64)....

 

bear in mind we would have to pay to sign that pick, but considering we got gio as a sandwich pick the first time around, yeah i expected KW to do a little better than a guy who was drafted in the 18th round

[GoSox05]

Why is that when KW makes a trade lots of folks on here think we didnt get back enough. Like every trade this happens. Like some team offered us there top 3 prospects and KW goes "no thanks, Ill take a single a pitcher".

 

It seems like they didnt get back who YOU wanted so its wrong.

 

Maybe we scouted this guy and he has potiental to be a solid RP in the next year or two. Maybe KW made a nice deal with the Phillies, so one day they'll give us a nice deal.

 

 

 

Iguchi was a solid player. If he was 27 years and we had him signed for three more years, than I would want tons back. Im just excited to see Richar play, altough hes already been written off by people.

[SoxFan77]

well, Dubee is better then the nothing we would get in return for him in the offseason, so I can live with this trade.

 

We don't have to pay nothing in the minors.. for doing nothing.. We do have to pay Dubee

[daa84]

We don't have to pay nothing in the minors.. for doing nothing.. We do have to pay Dubee

we would have had to pay iguchis contract the rest of the year, which is a hell of alot more than we will have to pay for dubee

[RME JICO]

With this move, hopefully it signals that the team feels that they are out of it, and need to position themselves better for 2008. Now I would like to see Dye and Contreras moved.

 

Do the Phillies need a RF or SP?

[BearSox]

i expected a little more....we would have gotten draft picks for iguchi...assuming we offered arbitration...here are the new rules

 

Draft Choice Compensation

1. Type C free agents eliminated in 2006

2. Also in 2006, compensation for type B players becomes indirect (sandwich pick) as opposed to direct compensation from signing Club.

3. Effective 2007, Type A players limited to top 20 percent of each position (down from 30 percent) and Type B players become 21 percent - 40 percent at each position (rather than 31 percent - 50 percent).

4. Salary arbitration offer and acceptance dates move to December 1 and December 7.

 

here is a list of the free agents from last year and who was type A and type B

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=1343042

 

im fairly confident in saying that iguchi would have fallen into either type A or type B

 

so at very least we would have gotten a sandwich pick....so had we kept iguchi, offered him arb. and he left to become a FA, we would have gotten a pick in the 50 range (last years type B compensation were overall 48-64)....

 

bear in mind we would have to pay to sign that pick, but considering we got gio as a sandwich pick the first time around, yeah i expected KW to do a little better than a guy who was drafted in the 18th round

I am 99.9% sure Iguchi could not have been offered arbitration and the only way a team could retain him is by signing him to an extension, and if not he would become a free agent. So, Dubee > nothing.

[Flash Tizzle]

What this trade does prove once and for all is if we have any intention of acquiring legitimate talent, we're not going to receive it from trades involving Dye or Contreras.

 

Someone such as Garland or Vazquez need to go. We're not rebuilding our minor league system with the Michael Dubee's of the world.

[daa84]

I am 99.9% sure Iguchi could not have been offered arbitration and the only way a team could retain him is by signing him to an extension, and if not he would become a free agent. So, Dubee > nothing.

im not disagreeing or doubting you, im just wondering why he couldnt have been offered arb....i quite frankly am far from an expert on the entire matter and have always been cloudy on offering arbitration to upcoming FA and how that all works

Edited July 27, 2007 by daa84

[BearSox]

We don't have to pay nothing in the minors.. for doing nothing.. We do have to pay Dubee

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[Balta1701]

i expected a little more....we would have gotten draft picks for iguchi...assuming we offered arbitration...here are the new rules

The issue with Iguchi is not the new arbitration rules. If we understand the way Japanese FA's tend to have their contracts structured, they sign an initial contract for x number of years at y dollars, but normally, being in MLB for x years doesn't give you enough service time to become a Free Agent again. So, to avoid being locked into arbitration for 6 years with the same team that signed you, there is usually a clause inserted requiring either the team to resign you to another contract by some date or to grant you a full release so that you can become a FA again.

 

The only question is how exactly Iguchi's contract was structured. He would not have enough MLB service time to become a free agent without some sort of this clause.

[Heads22]

how do you know? Been talking with some GM's lately or something?

 

I know we all like to pretend to be GM's, but odds are we weren't getting offered a whole lot for Iguchi. If we did get offered something good, shame on KW for passing it up.

 

I just refuse to believe KW couldn't have done better. Maybe he was concerned this was his only chance to move his contract, but he got diddly-poo in return.

[WCSox]

im not disagreeing or doubting you, im just wondering why he couldnt have been offered arb....i quite frankly am far from an expert on the entire matter and have always been cloudy on offering arbitration to upcoming FA and how that all works

 

Given that Iguchi made $3.25 million this year, arbitration would mean at least $3.5 million next year. Why pay a declining player that much when you have Richar ready to go?

 

[Steve9347]

Dubee was originally a Duane Schaffer draft pick for the White Sox in 2004.

 

Talk about mixed-messages.

[daa84]

The issue with Iguchi is not the new arbitration rules. If we understand the way Japanese FA's tend to have their contracts structured, they sign an initial contract for x number of years at y dollars, but normally, being in MLB for x years doesn't give you enough service time to become a Free Agent again. So, to avoid being locked into arbitration for 6 years with the same team that signed you, there is usually a clause inserted requiring either the team to resign you to another contract by some date or to grant you a full release so that you can become a FA again.

 

The only question is how exactly Iguchi's contract was structured. He would not have enough MLB service time to become a free agent without some sort of this clause.

ok, thanks for the info....IMO this is crucial then, if we were gonna get nothing for iguchi at the end of the year, then ok this is about what i expected...if we could have gotten a sandwich pick, then i would have expected more.

[BearSox]

im not disagreeing or doubting you, im just wondering why he couldnt have been offered arb....i quite frankly am far from an expert on the entire matter and have always been cloudy on offering arbitration to upcoming FA and how that all works

I'm not sure, but i am pretty sure it is a clause in his contract and that Hideki Matsui had the same clause in his contract.

[daa84]

Given that Iguchi made $3.25 million this year, arbitration would mean at least $3.5 million next year. Why pay a declining player that much when you have Richar ready to go?

simply because iguchi probably would decline arbitration and elect to become a FA and sign elsewhere for more years and probably a bit more money....but that may be a moot point if it is true that iguchi could not have been offered arb.

[Flash Tizzle]

I'm not saying you did, but were you under the impression trading Iguchi was in any way going to help rebuild the farm?

Not at all.

 

This is just to openly suggest if Williams is intent on rebuilding the farm system, someone with value will have to go. He's not going to fool anyone into giving up too much for Dye or Contreras. Everyone should have known this before; but if that wasn't clear, Iguchi's trade is proof.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[daa84]

I'm not sure, but i am pretty sure it is a clause in his contract and that Hideki Matsui had the same clause in his contract.

yeah thats what balta said too, in which case the way i view this trade becomes completely different, and this is about what i would have expected to get in return...basically look at it this way....we traded ryan meaux, who was like 3 years older and had similar numbers for blum, so this is a comparable deal

[Colorado Sox Fan]

wow. this is a mess. <_>

[EvilJester99]

Thing I find amusing about this deal is the Sox intially drafted Dubee in '04 and it was Duane Shaffer who was giving the good marks about Dubee...this is according to what I heard on Boers and Bernstein...Didn't the Sox just fire Shaffer for not drafting and scouting as good as they like...and now they trade for a guy that Shaffer was supposedly high on?

[BearSox]

yeah thats what balta said too, in which case the way i view this trade becomes completely different, and this is about what i would have expected to get in return...basically look at it this way....we traded ryan meaux, who was like 3 years older and had similar numbers for blum, so this is a comparable deal

that is a very good comparison...

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Don't mind this trade, I didn't expect to get anything back. It's a joke that Carlos Carrasco and Adrian Cardenas were mentioned in this thread.

[Heads22]

that is a very good comparison...

 

Or not, as Meaux was at least in AA with better numbers, and Iguchi had better numbers and is expected to fill a starting role, at least til Utley gets back.

 

Dubee isn't even in Advanced A yet.