Iraq General Thread

[Rex Kickass]

Sometime in Jan 2009 I think.

[kapkomet]

Haven't you been saying pretty much exactly that for the last couple years? That something needs to change and soon?

 

How long does soon last?

If I knew the answer to that question, I would become the Goracle and win the Nobel Peace Prize and be the next president of the USA.

 

[Mplssoxfan]

A Goracle/Kapacle ticket in 2008?

[Balta1701]

I figure we'll give Blackwater a couple more posts here until the real hearings begin and then spin them off into their own thread.

Private security contractor Blackwater USA has had to fire 122 people over the past three years for problems ranging from misusing weapons, alcohol and drug violations, inappropriate conduct, and violent behavior, according to a report released Monday by a congressional committee.

 

That total is roughly one-seventh of the work force that Blackwater has in Iraq, a ratio that raises questions about the quality of the people working for the company.

 

The report, prepared by the majority staff of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, also says Blackwater has been involved in 195 shooting incidents since 2005, or roughly 1.4 per week.

 

In more than 80 percent of the incidents, called "escalation of force," Blackwater's guards fired the first shots even though the company's contract with the State Department calls for it to use defensive force only, it said.

 

And by the way, it seems that the Iraqis have finally found something they are actually willing to agree with both the U.S. embassy in Baghdad and each other about; the non-Binding Senate Resolution for partition we mentioned last week is horrendous.

Iraq's divided political leadership, in a rare show of unity, skewered a non-binding U.S. Senate resolution approved in Washington, D.C., last week that endorses the decentralization of Iraq through the establishment of semi-autonomous regions.

 

Also on Sunday, the U.S. Embassy joined the Iraqi politicians - both Shiite and Sunni - in criticizing the resolution.

 

The measure's advocacy of a relatively weak central government and strong Sunni Arab, Shiite and Kurdish regions has touched a nerve in the Iraqi political arena, stoking fears that the United States is planning to partition Iraq.

 

"The Congress adopted this proposal based on an incorrect reading and unrealistic estimations of the history, present and future of Iraq," said Izzat al-Shahbandar, a member of secular ex-prime minister Ayad Allawi's parliament bloc.

 

He was reading from a statement also signed by Iraq's pre-eminent religious Shiite Muslim parties and the main Sunni Arab bloc.

 

"It represents a dangerous precedent to establishing the nature of the relationship between Iraq and the USA," the statement said, "and shows the Congress as if it were planning for a long-term occupation by their country's troops."

 

In the U.S. Embassy's highly unusual statement, it said resolution would seriously hamper Iraq's future stability.

[kapkomet]

A Goracle/Kapacle ticket in 2008?

Sure. Maybe I can straighten his carbon footprint out.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

Instead of putting Support the Troops magnets on your car you might be able to actually help with the war effort!

 

Proposed war tax

[NorthSideSox72]

Instead of putting Support the Troops magnets on your car you might be able to actually help with the war effort!

 

Proposed war tax

Smart for the Dems, and I think its a good way to really show people what this war is costing them. If they want it that badly, they can pay for it.

 

It won't pass of course, but just making the motion is a good move, I think.

 

[Texsox]

We need to cut taxes to pay for this war. I'd bet a 10% decrease would have this war paid for in no time.

[kapkomet]

We need to cut taxes to pay for this war. I'd bet a 10% decrease in pork spending would have this war paid for in no time.

Fixed that for you.

[Balta1701]

Fixed that for you.

I'm trying to find some way to turn this into a pun, I just can't really get beyond the fact that 10% of this nation's pork spending would fund the Iraq war for less than a week.

[mr_genius]

I'm trying to find some way to turn this into a pun, I just can't really get beyond the fact that 10% of this nation's pork spending would fund the Iraq war for less than a week.

 

the Iraq war has possibly been the biggest waste of money in US history. I have a feeling the whole thing will end up running about $1,000,000,000,000

 

and for what? oil? please, i wish. we aren't getting any oil. the whole idea of "nation building" is being shown for what it really is.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

the Iraq war has possibly been the biggest waste of money in US history. I have a feeling the whole thing will end up running about $1,000,000,000,000

 

and for what? oil? please, i wish. we aren't getting any oil. the whole idea of "nation building" is being shown for what it really is.

 

That was one distorted view of reality PNAC neo-conservatives had:

 

Phase 1. Invade Iraq

Phase 2. Flowers and rainbows greet us

Phase 3. The entire ME is taken by a whirlwind of American democracy; War on Terror over by 2005.

[Balta1701]

the Iraq war has possibly been the biggest waste of money in US history. I have a feeling the whole thing will end up running about $1,000,000,000,000

 

and for what? oil? please, i wish. we aren't getting any oil. the whole idea of "nation building" is being shown for what it really is.

You know the wierd thing? This doesn't convince me at all that "Nation building" as a concept is inherently flawed. This debacle convinces me that nation building by people who don't believe or care about nation building is guaranteed to be a debacle, and that imposing a built nation on a group that doesn't want it by force is virtually impossible.

[NorthSideSox72]

You know the wierd thing? This doesn't convince me at all that "Nation building" as a concept is inherently flawed. This debacle convinces me that nation building by people who don't believe or care about nation building is guaranteed to be a debacle, and that imposing a built nation on a group that doesn't want it by force is virtually impossible.

Yes. I think its amazing that this administration's logic seemed to go something like this:

 

1. We want to oust Saddam and put up a democracy in Iraq, to spread good cheer in the region.

 

2. In order to invade, oust and take military control we need 150k soldiers, and plans X, Y an Z.

 

3. OK, let's implement plans X, Y an Z.

 

*invasion occurs here

 

4. Oh wait... we forgot about the nation building part. What do we need for that?

 

[Texsox]

Anyone else insulted that the media puts every spending bill immediately put into Iraq War Dollars? If the health care bill, for example, is good, it doesn't matter if it is 5 days or 5 years in Iraq and same thing if it is bad. let's put away the Iraq analogies, please.

 

Oh, and all the members of congress that keep saying Bush is spendign $X in Iraq, WRONG! We all are. It's congresses budget also.

[NorthSideSox72]

Blackwater update. The House passed legislation to put these contractors under US prosecutorial jurisdiction, by a hhuge super-majority (389-30). I guess they finally realized it might not be so good that these folks were operating without any sort of oversight or legal limitations, because the administration (DOD and State mostly, you can thank Rummy and Condi for this one) structured their contracts in such a way that they slipped between the cracks. No military justice, no US legal justice.

 

Senate to vote soon, and if they have a similar majority, then Bush's veto will be useless.

 

[kapkomet]

Blackwater update. The House passed legislation to put these contractors under US prosecutorial jurisdiction, by a hhuge super-majority (389-30). I guess they finally realized it might not be so good that these folks were operating without any sort of oversight or legal limitations, because the administration (DOD and State mostly, you can thank Rummy and Condi for this one) structured their contracts in such a way that they slipped between the cracks. No military justice, no US legal justice.

 

Senate to vote soon, and if they have a similar majority, then Bush's veto will be useless.

He was threatening to veto this?

 

[NorthSideSox72]

He was threatening to veto this?

Not that I know of. But since the rules in place as they are, are a creation of some of his favorite people (Rummy, Condi and Dick all had hands in it), I'd assume he'll try to defend those rules till kingdom come like he does everything else, even in the face of it obviously being wrong.

 

But I must admit, I am making an assumption here. He may actually sign it, or even applaud it. If he does, great, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

Senate to vote soon, and if they have a similar majority, then Bush's veto will be useless.

 

Well, that's what good old GWB signing statements are for.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, that's what good old GWB signing statements are for.

Won't work on this one. If the law as written brings these people under the force of US law, his signing statement (which only effects his execution of the laws, not the laws themselves) won't do anything to the law. The only problem that COULD be caused by his excellency, is if he were to instruct the DOJ to not ever pursue or investigate a case against Blackwater or other contractors. Then, of course, lawsuits could be brought against that, and around and around we go...

 

Hopefully, I am wrong, and Bush signs the bill and lets it take effect.

 

But if he fights it, directly or indirectly, one has to ask - why?!?!?! Why would you WANT to have a virtual army out there with zero legal accountability? it isn't helping his cause any - it just makes him look worse.

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

The only problem that COULD be caused by his excellency, is if he were to instruct the DOJ to not ever pursue or investigate a case against Blackwater or other contractors. Then, of course, lawsuits could be brought against that, and around and around we go...

 

That's what I'm envisioning. It does us no good to have EPA enforcement of environmental laws ifd all the EPA prosecutors know they are supposed to take a dive when they take big business to court, and it will do us no good to say Blackwater is now subject to legal prosecution according to the laws of the nation of DOJ is going to be bullied out of any investigations they might pursue.

 

You gotta hand it to the BushCo Cabal, they acan play the system like a harp from hell.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

That's what I'm envisioning. It does us no good to have EPA enforcement of environmental laws ifd all the EPA prosecutors know they are supposed to take a dive when they take big business to court, and it will do us no good to say Blackwater is now subject to legal prosecution according to the laws of the nation of DOJ is going to be bullied out of any investigations they might pursue.

 

You gotta hand it to the BushCo Cabal, they acan play the system like a harp from hell.

I realize that no good judgement can be made just yet, but... at this point, I am having a hard time seeing how this President won't be looked at eventually as the worst in the past century. He really is that bad. I am not being intentionally hyperbolic here either - I am serious. He's one of the worst ever.

 

And before people start screaming about GOP versus Dem, remember that I voted for this guy in 2000, I've voted for more Republicans than Democrats for the Presidency, and I often end up voting for Republicans locally because at that level they still often understand the concept of fiscal discipline.

 

Its not that he's a Republican. Heck, I don't think he has done much good for the conservatives anyway, other than the Supremes nominations. He is just a flat-out awful President.

 

[BigSqwert]

I realize that no good judgement can be made just yet, but... at this point, I am having a hard time seeing how this President won't be looked at eventually as the worst in the past century. He really is that bad. I am not being intentionally hyperbolic here either - I am serious. He's one of the worst ever.

 

And before people start screaming about GOP versus Dem, remember that I voted for this guy in 2000, I've voted for more Republicans than Democrats for the Presidency, and I often end up voting for Republicans locally because at that level they still often understand the concept of fiscal discipline.

 

Its not that he's a Republican. Heck, I don't think he has done much good for the conservatives anyway, other than the Supremes nominations. He is just a flat-out awful President.

Everything I bolded is true of me too. Honestly.

 

EDIT: I didn't word that correctly but you know what I mean.

Edited October 5, 2007 by BigSqwert

[BigSqwert]

BTW - My voting record for Presidential candidates:

 

88: Bush

92: Perot

96: Dole

00: Bush

04: Kerry

 

[kapkomet]

Everything I bolded is true of me too. Honestly.

 

EDIT: I didn't word that correctly but you know what I mean.

 

 

BTW - My voting record for Presidential candidates:

 

88: Bush

92: Perot

96: Dole

00: Bush

04: Kerry

I'm being serious when I say this to you both (BS and NSS). I GENUINELY appreciate what you're saying here. I do agree, for the most part, of your assessments. GWB has REALLY disappointed me in a lot of ways, and as time goes on, it gets worse.

 

The hardest part for me is when I hear the Democrats, it just makes me want to vomit. When I hear Bush, I shake my head because I feel like he's a misguided blundering idiot. Can you distinguish the difference? The Re-Pube-licans have totally lost their way. Fiscal discipline. Conservative values (without getting into the stupid religious right crap). Be tough on immigration (no citizenship, but come through the right way, even on a legal work program, which is fine by me). Put American values into place. Be positive. Stay strong on the war on terror, even if it means putting up a facade to leave Iraq more positive then it is now (i.e. the Dems beating up the issue more for political points then anything else, which leads to the dissention that we see today).

 

The messages I put above are gone. It's all asshatery right now, and that's the issue. I feel as though the Democrats are wrong on the issues, and the Re-pube-licans are countering by getting away from their core. That, in a nutshell, is the issue to me.