I Figured Out Why The Angels Didnt Sign D.E.

[sayitaintso]

More like a five cent question. What would suggests to you or anyone else that Erstad is capable of contributing to any major leauge ballclub when he's incapable of remaining on the field?

 

Enough of Erstad. Enough of Podsednik. I don't want either on this ballclub next season in any capacity.

Dukes for BA straight up during the winter meetings. Swap both unwanted OFers. I actually wouln't mind this at all, except for the fact that dukes is around the mike tyson crazy level in my book.

[BearSox]

Anderson IS not doing a thing, he WAS striking out.

 

He's done, for this year, and quite possibly for good.

well, speaking of striking out, In about 180 AB's this season, Fields has K'd about 60 times. Now, I am no math expert, but that adds up to Fields striking out once every three at bats. And he has been a K machine the past week or so. He is on pace to strike out 124 times in only 371 AB's. Now, hopefully he will continue to improve and get his K's under control.

[BearSox]

oh yeah, Sweeney didn't play again today. Either he is injured, which is a strong possibility as he has only played 1 inning in the past 3 games, or he is about to get called up and one of Erstad or Thome are going onto the DL, if not both.

[NorthSideSox72]

oh yeah, Sweeney didn't play again today. Either he is injured, which is a strong possibility as he has only played 1 inning in the past 3 games, or he is about to get called up and one of Erstad or Thome are going onto the DL, if not both.

There has been a lot of player personnel activity in Charlotte, so who knows. Ricks, Perez, and now Lucy and Collaro have all been called up there. Molina was let go, probably more of those to come.

 

[greg775]

I'm surprised we didn't deal Thome at the deadline.

He's the once productive guy who is at the age where that back is not going

to get any better.

I like him, but he gets hurt and he's aging.

I can't believe we didn't deal him just because of age and health concerns.

[Balta1701]

I'm surprised we didn't deal Thome at the deadline.

He's the once productive guy who is at the age where that back is not going

to get any better.

I like him, but he gets hurt and he's aging.

I can't believe we didn't deal him just because of age and health concerns.

He also has a full no trade clause, which he would have to waive in order to be dealt. And when he was traded last time, he said he would only waive that clause to go to Cleveland or Chicago from Philly. For all we know, KW may well have inquired as to whether or not he's waive that clause for a shot with a contender this year.

[Gene Honda Civic]

The title of this post, when combined with a posting date 7 months after the signing, makes me laugh.

 

"]Actual money for an outfielder that's posted a .272/.324/.372 line since KW tried to trade Garland and Singleton for him.

 

Singleton put up a .270/.311/.397 line since then, and all we're paying for his awkward pauses in the radio booth.

 

I then went a step further and averaged 4 popular projection systems to give an idea of what the Sox were wasting resources on... .261/.317/.364 -- Erstad had a big day Thursday to push his '08 line to .274/.323/.349. Too bad nobody could see that coming...

 

On the opening day of spring training, in response to a BRUTAL Phil Rogers article in which he lauded Erstad for his ability to play football and hockey 12 years ago, I posted this

The fact that Erstad hasn't had a productive season since 2000 won't stop the media from praising this grinder (read: little white guy). I can only imagine the crap we're going to hear from Hawk during the first two weeks of the season before Erstad is knocked out for the year.

I took a full 2 months before Hawk breathlessly raced from the booth to the clubhouse to check on his little pet. At the time I could only imagine that Erstad would be Hawk's favorite player. Not a single game (even pre-season) had been broadcast yet.

 

Today when Erstad went down for the 3rd time this season, and for the second time in his first start back from the DL, Hawk could only muster an almost sarcastic "Erstad goes down... again." Not even Hawk can muster concern about our little grinder anymore. It's time to put him down, Barbaro and whatever derisive nickname we have yet to give to Jerry Owens too. I think I'm just obligated to have particular disdain for any player who wears #7.

[Kalapse]

Maybe it has more to do with Anderson than Erstad? Why play Mackowiak in favor of Anderson in '06, allow Erstad to take Anderson's job in '07, and then let Anderson rot in the minors while Erstad sits on the DL for most of the season?

 

I wouldn't put intense, irrational dislike of Anderson (or any player) past Ozzie, but it seems more plausible that Anderson might have a serious attitude problem or something.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Brian Anderson, I'm way past all that s***, all this has to do with is a false assumption that some people seem to have. I don't see how anyone can believe that Erstad was brought in here to compete for a starting job, he was signed to be the starter. Anderson was the clear winner of the CF contest in ST, there's no real debate there, Anderson had a MUCH better spring yet Erstad was given the job anyway. If it was attitude problems that killed any hopes Brian had of being the starter in '07 then those problems had to have been there in '06 when he was platooning with Mackowiak and again over the winter when he reluctantly played in Venezuela. There was no competition, KW and Ozzie knew what they had in Anderson and didn't want him starting in CF and that's cool, I have no problem with that but to bring in Erstad to replace him was a f***ing joke of a move.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Kalapse is always right. Well, atleast in this thread.

[WCSox]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Brian Anderson, I'm way past all that s***, all this has to do with is a false assumption that some people seem to have. I don't see how anyone can believe that Erstad was brought in here to compete for a starting job, he was signed to be the starter. Anderson was the clear winner of the CF contest in ST, there's no real debate there, Anderson had a MUCH better spring yet Erstad was given the job anyway. If it was attitude problems that killed any hopes Brian had of being the starter in '07 then those problems had to have been there in '06 when he was platooning with Mackowiak and again over the winter when he reluctantly played in Venezuela.

 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. That would explain why Mack was in CF down the stretch last year and why Erstad beat him out in ST with inferior play.

 

I don't pretend to know what goes on in the clubhouse, but this would make sense. Especially when there were rumors flying around about B-Mac getting "too big for his britches" last year and then being dealt in December.

Edited August 3, 2007 by WCSox

[Kalapse]

Yeah but this has nothing to do with Anderson, I really don't care about that situation one bit it has everything to do with the front office having some false sense that Darin Erstad was a capable replacement for the Mack/BA platoon of '06.

[kwolf68]

I'll agree that Erstad was destined to be the starter and that seems to be not quite fair, but a ball player would have gone down to AAA and kicked ass. Anderson has been mediocre at best playing at that level.

 

So, while we get on Ozzie or KW or whomever for just handing the CF job to Erstad, the fact is Anderson hasn't made that decision look bad due to his ordinary play at a level below the ML level.

 

I am not a scout and there are people who probably have more knowledge about the mechanics of hitting than I (although I do OK), but I don't like Anderson's long, slow, looping swing. And even though I am a very defensive minded person, I typically want my outfielders to be better than average offensive threats, which Anderson is not.

Edited August 3, 2007 by kwolf68

[Dick Allen]

Why is it that Brian Anderson and his 2006 stats of .225 BA and .290 OBP make him just a horrible player, but Josh Fields and his .236 BA and .298 OBP make him a future star, and reason enough to non tender Joe Crede?

[kwolf68]

Why is it that Brian Anderson and his 2006 stats of .225 BA and .290 OBP make him just a horrible player, but Josh Fields and his .236 BA and .298 OBP make him a future star, and reason enough to non tender Joe Crede?

 

 

Who said we should non tender Crede and who said Anderson was a horrible player?

 

My take is it that Fields is showing some power potential something that Anderson didn't show even though he was called a 5-tool player. And Anderson isn't a horrible player because he plays good defense and while he is still young and there is certainly a chance he could improve as a hitter, responding to being sent to AAA with a .255 average tells me the guy just isn't that good as a hitter or he is pouting about the move and isn't putting in the required work to get back to the majors.

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Who said we should non tender Crede and who said Anderson was a horrible player?

 

My take is it that Fields is showing some power potential something that Anderson didn't show even though he was called a 5-tool player. And Anderson isn't a horrible player because he plays good defense and while he is still young and there is certainly a chance he could improve as a hitter, responding to being sent to AAA with a .255 average tells me the guy just isn't that good as a hitter or he is pouting about the move and isn't putting in the required work to get back to the majors.

The funny thing is, this board is very critical of the White Sox offense when they appear to be swinging for the fences, but love Josh Fields. He is the epitome of that style of hitting.

[kwolf68]

The funny thing is, this board is very critical of the White Sox offense when they appear to be swinging for the fences, but love Josh Fields. He is the epitome of that style of hitting.

 

Josh Fields has laid down several well executed bunts this year, so I think he is more versatile than you make it sound. He is definately striking out at a high rate, but has a history of making great strides in his development. For most of his time until his 13 at bat hitless streak that he is now currently in, he was around .245-.250, credible for a player in his situation.

 

I don't think Anderson is a complete dud and don't think Fields is heading to the Hall of Fame, but I get a sense there is more potential in the bat of Josh Fields. I say that knowing it possible I could be wrong.

 

Still, I want to see how he performs over the last two months and with the team out of the race, I'd like Anderson to be called up and given a chance again, but he has to get his AAA average up, as a .255 AAA average gives no indication he will hit major league pitching this year. Then we can talk about this again.

 

[Balta1701]

Still, I want to see how he performs over the last two months and with the team out of the race, I'd like Anderson to be called up and given a chance again, but he has to get his AAA average up, as a .255 AAA average gives no indication he will hit major league pitching this year. Then we can talk about this again.

Anderson is out for the season with an injury. Part of the reason he put up a .255 average in AAA was that he was hurt the whole time except for just a handful of games. He spent most of his time at DH while nursing a shoulder injury, and now he's down with a wrist injury that probably won't heal before the season ends.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

Does anyone here still go on WSI ? I'm just curious if the posters there are still defending Erstad ? And, the bullpen ?

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Does anyone here still go on WSI ? I'm just curious if the posters there are still defending Erstad ? And, the bullpen ?

 

It won't be Erstad they'll be defending. It will be the all-knowing "KW." And if you don't toe the line, you're a troll.

[29andPoplar]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Brian Anderson, I'm way past all that s***, all this has to do with is a false assumption that some people seem to have. I don't see how anyone can believe that Erstad was brought in here to compete for a starting job, he was signed to be the starter. Anderson was the clear winner of the CF contest in ST, there's no real debate there, Anderson had a MUCH better spring yet Erstad was given the job anyway. If it was attitude problems that killed any hopes Brian had of being the starter in '07 then those problems had to have been there in '06 when he was platooning with Mackowiak and again over the winter when he reluctantly played in Venezuela. There was no competition, KW and Ozzie knew what they had in Anderson and didn't want him starting in CF and that's cool, I have no problem with that but to bring in Erstad to replace him was a f***ing joke of a move.

 

I would like to add my 2 cents to this as I believe I have something to contribute, having been down in Tucson for about 5 weeks this spring.

 

I totally respect your opinion and viewpoint but may I say that some of it is skewed.

 

It had a lot to do with Brian. A lot. Unfortunately he had a really bad year last year and compounded it with not fitting in with many in the clubhouse. Now I know some of you will say "so what" to that but whether we like it or not, that's baseball. The "chatter" down in Tucson was Brian didn't put in the extra effort required to be a productive big leaguer (at the plate). Referring to things as extra time in the cage, getting to the ballpark early and staying late. Brian didn't do that.

 

There is a real debate on who had the better spring. As I recall Anderson had somewhat better numbers but unfortunately numbers do not tell the whole story in spring training. If people are basing Anderson's numbers in spring training vs. Erstad's and saying he clearly won the job, then I would say it's a case of people wanting Anderson to win the job and looking for reasons to say he did.

 

While I am no great fan of Erstad (he is fragile and it has shown), he is highly respected, plays the game very hard, helps his teammates with little things like helping position the defense, knowing the opposition tendancies and many many other little things which are often dismissed on message boards as unimportant.

 

You are correct when you say Erstad was signed to be a starter (in my opinion). Anderson needed to be lights out, especially with some of the work ethic stuff mentioned above. The Sox brass and coaches wouldn't have been so hard on him if he had heeded their advice in 2006 (be a pro, work harder, learn the game better, etc.).

 

Bear in mind Erstad was a last option, basically. Williams and Guillen were adamant they were going to do one of two things after Anderson's 2006. One, bring somebody in to replace him and they were blown out of the water on Juan Pierre and Gary Matthews Jr. and even Dave Roberts. I do not blame Sox brass for not paying the huge dollars to any of those three, and I believe personally time will show those to be bad contracts.

 

From what I heard they contacted Erstad early in the winter and said hey, we're interested if you can show you're healthy with that ankle, if you find a deal you like, no problem, but let's talk if it gets after the New Year and you're still out there. Erstad wanted to sign with a team where he could compete for playing time (at least) and he wanted a contract with a low base, performance incentives, and an option for '08. Florida offered that and so did the White Sox and Erstad felt it was a better situation in Chicago. He came into spring training, did all the right things on and off the field, worked on getting his timing back and such. The Sox brass and Guillen felt Erstad would be a better fit with a team full of veterans and since Anderson didn't totally respond to what the Sox brass wanted from him, the decision was made to go with Erstad. The scales were tipped against Anderson based on what I heard but it wasn't a cut-and-dried that he wouldn't be on the team. Anderson was unhappy about not being given the starters job again, it's a normal reaction but some around the team felt he was sulking and that didn't go over well. His performance back in Charlotte this year was underwhelming and then he unfortunately got hurt. My feeling is they will somehow try to get his value back up and trade him in spring training.

 

As for Erstad, it's plain and simple. He was fragile, he is fragile, and I suspect he always will be. At best he is a backup 1B with limited time in the OF. The option, at $3M or whatever it is for 2008, is too much. They launched Mackowiak who would be paid right about that amount or slightly higher. And they have to get younger and more athletic. But for those who say well Brian Anderson is younger and more athletic, yes that is true on the surface but the big litmus test for him was going back to Charlotte and getting his game together. That did not happen to the degree it needed to. Further, Brian got hurt (shoulder) and now the wrist. Brian is no stranger to injuries either.

 

It comes down to this, get better players. No Erstad's, no Podsednik's, no Anderson's. Get guys who are durable, can play at the big league level, and don't have baggage. It was a bad miscalculation on Williams' part on two levels. First, believing Erstad would hold up. Second, having so much faith and patience in Brian Anderson. Williams thinks they should have all kinds of patience with players they like but it doesn't always work out. Yes, it worked with Rowand and Crede. But if they clearly feel, as they do with Anderson, that there are performance issues both on and off the field, then do the organization and the player a favor. Give him a fresh start elsewhere and go out and get a better player.

 

One last thing, and that is I believe they have finally learned about drafting CF guys. They need to draft at least two potential CF guys in every single draft. The Phillies do that and they've got some good ones coming. The Sox took two this year and at least one last year (if memory serves). This is the big leagues and this is Chicago. Screw this never ending patience, you have got to have serious competition and depth at the critical positions, so if a guy like Anderson falters, you have another guy right behind him. Easy for me to say it on a message board, harder to actually do it, but bottom line it needs to be done.

 

Sorry for the lengthy post.

[WCSox]

I would like to add my 2 cents to this as I believe I have something to contribute, having been down in Tucson for about 5 weeks this spring.

 

I totally respect your opinion and viewpoint but may I say that some of it is skewed.

 

It had a lot to do with Brian. A lot. Unfortunately he had a really bad year last year and compounded it with not fitting in with many in the clubhouse. Now I know some of you will say "so what" to that but whether we like it or not, that's baseball. The "chatter" down in Tucson was Brian didn't put in the extra effort required to be a productive big leaguer (at the plate). Referring to things as extra time in the cage, getting to the ballpark early and staying late. Brian didn't do that.

 

Interesting. I heard that he was chided by his teammates for being an obnoxious showboat after the WS.

 

You are correct when you say Erstad was signed to be a starter (in my opinion). Anderson needed to be lights out, especially with some of the work ethic stuff mentioned above. The Sox brass and coaches wouldn't have been so hard on him if he had heeded their advice in 2006 (be a pro, work harder, learn the game better, etc.).

 

I agree with that as well. My guess is that Ozzie didn't like Anderson's attitude and he asked KW to find somebody else. So in that regard, it had everything to do with BA.

 

[Kalapse]

Good information there, when saying Anderson had a better spring the only thing I can go off of is what I see on the field. I'm not on the practice fields or waiting by the player parking lot to see when everyone shows up. I just see Anderson showing great plate discipline, solid power and excellent contact while Erstad looked completely lost at the plate for the majority of the spring. If Anderson lost the competition off the field, that's cool but I don't think he was going to be able to compete with Erstad's work ethic anyway (and it seems the off the fields stuff was weighted heavily in KW/Oz's mind), Darin is ridiculous when it comes to that aspect of the game, it's a shame the rest of his game is completely pathetic.

 

I agree with the complete second half of your post.

 

After Brian lost the competition in Spring Training I was pretty much done with him, I could really care less what he does for the rest of his career at Charlotte (since I doubt he ever plays in Chicago again).

 

My question is, if Erstad had signed with the Marlins who would be the the starting CF this year? Owens? There was no one left in free agency at that point and I doubt they would have given the job to Anderson.

[NorthSideSox72]

Great post, 29.

 

[29andPoplar]

Good information there, when saying Anderson had a better spring the only thing I can go off of is what I see on the field. I'm not on the practice fields or waiting by the player parking lot to see when everyone shows up. I just see Anderson showing great plate discipline, solid power and excellent contact while Erstad looked completely lost at the plate for the majority of the spring. If Anderson lost the competition off the field, that's cool but I don't think he was going to be able to compete with Erstad's work ethic anyway (and it seems the off the fields stuff was weighted heavily in KW/Oz's mind), Darin is ridiculous when it comes to that aspect of the game, it's a shame the rest of his game is completely pathetic.

 

I agree with the complete second half of your post.

 

After Brian lost the competition in Spring Training I was pretty much done with him, I could really care less what he does for the rest of his career at Charlotte (since I doubt he ever plays in Chicago again).

 

My question is, if Erstad had signed with the Marlins who would be the the starting CF this year? Owens? There was no one left in free agency at that point and I doubt they would have given the job to Anderson.

 

The question is interesting, not sure what would've happened had Erstad not signed here. But you know this, when the White Sox mgmt. zeroes in on a player, they tend to get him. They were competing with the Marlins and the White Sox org. has had a good reputation so Erstad picking here was not surprising.

 

As for Brian, it really is a shame. It's a bad fit for him here. Not due to personalities but him breaking in on a team that intended to compete was a bad fit. We can all play the blame game between Brian, Guillen, Williams, Erstad, etc. but it really doesn't matter, it didn't work out for him or the White Sox. The biggest losers in this lousy situation are the fans. The most frustrating thing for me personally is the White Sox still do not have a legit CF and by that I mean a legit 4 or dare I say 5 tool guy.

 

I actually was lucky enough to spend a few minutes with Hahn and expressed my frustration about the White Sox not being able to develop (or draft) legit guys for SS, CF, and catcher. The key positions, especially for a Guillen-managed team. While I half expected a pat answer from Rick ("we draft so low, we can't draft the prime talent"), he was very forthright, saying he and Williams know this has been a huge shortcoming and the whole scouting and development situation was under scrutiny and evaluation (this was in late Feb.). Well we see what happened with that, Shaffer got launched. I expect to see more changes in player development this winter and I expect them to give Denny Gonzalez more help with the Dominican operation (DG runs the Sox academy there). They have brought a bunch of guys to the U.S. (see Bristol's roster for proof) and I also expect some outside scouting talent to be brought in. Both Williams and Hahn are frustrated as can be with the Twins and Indians in particular coming up with all this talent. Talent that comes up and contributes, not the Gustavo Molina's of the world. Not that I know anything but I did tell Hahn that I understand the love affair with drafting tons of pitching but I would like to see them go out of the box (philosophically) and get SS and CF in the pipeline and focus more on speed vs. power.

 

These are smart guys (Williams and Hahn) and they know full well things have gone very badly and I expect them to be highly aggressive this winter on lots of things.

[mmmmmbeeer]

The question is interesting, not sure what would've happened had Erstad not signed here. But you know this, when the White Sox mgmt. zeroes in on a player, they tend to get him. They were competing with the Marlins and the White Sox org. has had a good reputation so Erstad picking here was not surprising.

 

As for Brian, it really is a shame. It's a bad fit for him here. Not due to personalities but him breaking in on a team that intended to compete was a bad fit. We can all play the blame game between Brian, Guillen, Williams, Erstad, etc. but it really doesn't matter, it didn't work out for him or the White Sox. The biggest losers in this lousy situation are the fans. The most frustrating thing for me personally is the White Sox still do not have a legit CF and by that I mean a legit 4 or dare I say 5 tool guy.

 

I actually was lucky enough to spend a few minutes with Hahn and expressed my frustration about the White Sox not being able to develop (or draft) legit guys for SS, CF, and catcher. The key positions, especially for a Guillen-managed team. While I half expected a pat answer from Rick ("we draft so low, we can't draft the prime talent"), he was very forthright, saying he and Williams know this has been a huge shortcoming and the whole scouting and development situation was under scrutiny and evaluation (this was in late Feb.). Well we see what happened with that, Shaffer got launched. I expect to see more changes in player development this winter and I expect them to give Denny Gonzalez more help with the Dominican operation (DG runs the Sox academy there). They have brought a bunch of guys to the U.S. (see Bristol's roster for proof) and I also expect some outside scouting talent to be brought in. Both Williams and Hahn are frustrated as can be with the Twins and Indians in particular coming up with all this talent. Talent that comes up and contributes, not the Gustavo Molina's of the world. Not that I know anything but I did tell Hahn that I understand the love affair with drafting tons of pitching but I would like to see them go out of the box (philosophically) and get SS and CF in the pipeline and focus more on speed vs. power.

 

These are smart guys (Williams and Hahn) and they know full well things have gone very badly and I expect them to be highly aggressive this winter on lots of things.

 

'precciate your insight.