What the hell was Ozzie doing, volume 80 billion

[Gene Honda Civic]

Frankly I thought that we executed perfectly with the middle of the order coming up. If he got thrown out trying to steal would you have created the thread for Ozzie sending him?

No.

 

But there would be some more evidence against Jerry Owens as a major leaguer. And I'm sure there would have been a thread on that.

 

Let's remember Game 4 of the World Series. Willie harris reaches on a single, but Ozzie is bunting with Pods. Why? Because Willie has been killed by the media and the team for his inability to steal a base. JD comes through with 2 outs.

 

If Owens can't be counted on to steal in a key situation, why isn't he being run out of town like Harris?

[Steff]

No.

 

But there would be some more evidence against Jerry Owens as a major leaguer. And I'm sure there would have been a thread on that.

 

Let's remember Game 4 of the World Series. Willie harris reaches on a single, but Ozzie is bunting with Pods. Why? Because Willie has been killed by the media and the team for his inability to steal a base. JD comes through with 2 outs.

 

If Owens can't be counted on to steal in a key situation, why isn't he being run out of town like Harris?

 

 

Because there are 4,361 other things higher than that on the '07 Sox complaint list.

[Gene Honda Civic]

And if he'd gotten caught there would have been holy hell to pay.

Yes, but not for Ozzie.

 

For the Willie Harris clone without the defense.

[Steff]

Yes, but not for Ozzie.

 

For the Willie Harris clone without the defense.

 

 

Oh... I'm sure there would have been at least a few dozen threads blaming Oz as a result. Some just can't help themselves.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Oh... I'm sure there would have been at least a few dozen threads blaming Oz as a result. Some just can't help themselves.

but for now, let's dismiss all the blame for a ridiculous call and argue about where the blame would have gone had Guillen made the proper offensive moves.

[knightni]

And Victor Martinez has improved dramatically in throwing out basestealers this year.

 

 

'roids.

 

 

[SoxPride56]

Thome is second in the AL in OBP and he hits with power. Yeah, his act is getting really old. They need to bring in someone who never gets on base.

When did I say he NEVER gets on base? I just agreed with the guy that said him not doing well in the clutch is getting old.

[Steff]

When did I say he NEVER gets on base? I just agreed with the guy that said him not doing well in the clutch is getting old.

 

 

Since when did actual comments take precedence around here...

[29andPoplar]

Interesting conversation here.

 

Had Westbrook still been in there in the 9th, if I were Guillen I send Owens. Reason being, they only had two hits off the guy and Westbrook was inducing a ton of ground balls. If Owens was successful stealing, even if Guillen orders a bunt to get him to 3rd with one out, with Westbrook out there dealing, getting a sac fly is very iffy.

 

With Borowski in there, actually I do what Guillen did. Get the guy into scoring position via bunt, don't risk him getting thrown out on a steal attempt. Show faith in Thome and Konerko to drive the guy in from 2nd.

 

That's just me though. I'm sure it can be argued either way, on both sides.

 

The one thing we do know is Thome nor Konerko nor Pierzynski could get a big base hit. What new for the '07 White Sox?

 

 

[juddling]

And if he'd gotten caught there would have been holy hell to pay.

 

 

I can only speak for myself but i've never gotten mad at Ozzie or any Sox manager for being overly-aggressive. I would rather lose by getting a guy thrown out trying to steal then to not be able to get hm in from scoring position with only 1 out.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

What is is OBP with runners in scoring position compared to with no runners on? Can someone help me out with that?

 

i was actually quite surprised with the splits from thome this year better than i had expected with men on late in games

 

By Situation AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

On Second 20 2 4 0 0 1 4 15 0 3 0 0 .200 .543 .350 .893

On Third 7 2 0 0 0 0 3 1 1 5 0 0 .000 .200 .000 .200

First and Second 20 7 8 2 0 2 13 4 0 5 0 0 .400 .500 .800 1.300

First and Third 10 6 3 0 0 3 12 3 0 3 0 0 .300 .400 1.200 1.600

Second and Third 3 8 2 1 0 1 6 1 0 0 0 0 .667 .750 2.000 2.750

Bases Loaded 8 8 2 0 0 0 7 2 0 4 0 0 .250 .400 .250 .650

1B Only 50 9 16 4 0 3 6 18 0 17 0 0 .320 .500 .580 1.080

None On/Out 54 2 19 4 0 2 2 6 0 15 0 0 .352 .417 .537 .954

None On, 1/2 out 103 6 21 2 0 6 6 24 2 39 0 0 .204 .364 .398 .762

Close and Late 38 7 11 2 0 1 9 11 1 15 0 0 .289 .451 .421 .872

None On 157 8 40 6 0 8 8 30 2 54 0 0 .255 .381 .446 .827

Runners On 118 42 35 7 0 10 51 44 1 37 0 0 .297 .482 .610 1.092

Scoring Position 68 33 19 3 0 7 45 26 1 20 0 0 .279 .469 .632 1.101

Scoring Posn, 2 out 16 12 6 1 0 2 14 9 0 3 0 0 .375 .600 .813 1.413

Men On, 2 out 28 15 9 2 0 3 16 15 0 7 0 0 .321 .558 .714 1.272

Man on 3rd,

Lead Off Inning 52 0 18 3 0 2 2 5 0 15 0 0 .346 .404 .519 .923

 

Glossary

Groundball - results vs. "groundball pitchers." Groundball pitchers defined as such before the season begins based on the past five year's performance. A groundball/flyball ratio of less than 1.0 classifies one as a flyball pitcher. A ratio of greater than 1.5 classifies one as a groundball pitcher. All others are neutral. Flyball - results vs. flyball pitchers. Average G:F - results vs. a pitcher classifed as neither a groundball or flyball pitcher. Finesse - results vs. "finesse" pitchers. Finesse pitchers defined as such before the season begins based on the past five year's performance. If the pitcher's BB+SO/IP is less than 0.93, he is classified as "finesse." If it's greater than 1.13, he's classified as "power." All others are neutral. Power - results vs. "power" pitchers. Average F:P - results vs. a pitcher classified as neither a finesse or power pitcher. Close And Late - results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck.

 

[kwolf68]

 

I have no problem bunting Owens over...you give Thome, Paulie, and AJ a chance to win it.

 

I'd rather have Konerko hitting 3rd and Thome 4th and AJP somewhere else, but that's just my op.

[kapkomet]

i was actually quite surprised with the splits from thome this year better than i had expected with men on late in games

 

By Situation AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

On Second 20 2 4 0 0 1 4 15 0 3 0 0 .200 .543 .350 .893

On Third 7 2 0 0 0 0 3 1 1 5 0 0 .000 .200 .000 .200

First and Second 20 7 8 2 0 2 13 4 0 5 0 0 .400 .500 .800 1.300

First and Third 10 6 3 0 0 3 12 3 0 3 0 0 .300 .400 1.200 1.600

Second and Third 3 8 2 1 0 1 6 1 0 0 0 0 .667 .750 2.000 2.750

Bases Loaded 8 8 2 0 0 0 7 2 0 4 0 0 .250 .400 .250 .650

1B Only 50 9 16 4 0 3 6 18 0 17 0 0 .320 .500 .580 1.080

None On/Out 54 2 19 4 0 2 2 6 0 15 0 0 .352 .417 .537 .954

None On, 1/2 out 103 6 21 2 0 6 6 24 2 39 0 0 .204 .364 .398 .762

Close and Late 38 7 11 2 0 1 9 11 1 15 0 0 .289 .451 .421 .872

None On 157 8 40 6 0 8 8 30 2 54 0 0 .255 .381 .446 .827

Runners On 118 42 35 7 0 10 51 44 1 37 0 0 .297 .482 .610 1.092

Scoring Position 68 33 19 3 0 7 45 26 1 20 0 0 .279 .469 .632 1.101

Scoring Posn, 2 out 16 12 6 1 0 2 14 9 0 3 0 0 .375 .600 .813 1.413

Men On, 2 out 28 15 9 2 0 3 16 15 0 7 0 0 .321 .558 .714 1.272

Man on 3rd,

Lead Off Inning 52 0 18 3 0 2 2 5 0 15 0 0 .346 .404 .519 .923

 

Glossary

Groundball - results vs. "groundball pitchers." Groundball pitchers defined as such before the season begins based on the past five year's performance. A groundball/flyball ratio of less than 1.0 classifies one as a flyball pitcher. A ratio of greater than 1.5 classifies one as a groundball pitcher. All others are neutral. Flyball - results vs. flyball pitchers. Average G:F - results vs. a pitcher classifed as neither a groundball or flyball pitcher. Finesse - results vs. "finesse" pitchers. Finesse pitchers defined as such before the season begins based on the past five year's performance. If the pitcher's BB+SO/IP is less than 0.93, he is classified as "finesse." If it's greater than 1.13, he's classified as "power." All others are neutral. Power - results vs. "power" pitchers. Average F:P - results vs. a pitcher classified as neither a finesse or power pitcher. Close And Late - results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck.

Thanks for this. Not bad, actually. Maybe it's just a "lately" thing.

[Steff]

I can only speak for myself but i've never gotten mad at Ozzie or any Sox manager for being overly-aggressive. I would rather lose by getting a guy thrown out trying to steal then to not be able to get hm in from scoring position with only 1 out.

 

 

Apologies as I didn't mean to single you out.

 

As for the call, I try to have confidence in the vets in the lineup. I have to realize that they don't deserve that automatically anymore.

[michelangelosmonkey]

When did I say he NEVER gets on base? I just agreed with the guy that said him not doing well in the clutch is getting old.

 

I think there's limited evidence that someone is really "clutch". Jeter for his career has a .317 batting average, and .463 Slg. With runners in scoring position he's .312 and .436. Yet if we listen to the media he's the greatest clutch guy of all time. Thome is .281/.563 career, and .279/.543 career with runners in scoring position. You look at one year and it's just small sample size confusion. Dimaggio was a .325 career BA/.579 slg hitter but a .271ba/.422slg hitter in the World Series. Does that mean you'd bench him for Juan URibe who has a .286 playoff batting average with a .422 playoff slugging percent. Or maybe, you know, you'd keep Joe D in the game figuring it was just a case of small sample size. (and yes...I'd bat the long dead Dimaggio over Uribe).

[SoxPride56]

Since when did actual comments take precedence around here...

 

 

Good point Steff, good point.

[Yossarian]

I honestly think if after Owens reached on the gift dropped 3rd strike, Ozzie could have called time, went out on the field, told Borowski and Martinez that Owens was running on the 1st pitch, and he'd have STILL stolen 2nd base pretty easily. It's bad enough to give a pitcher as bad as Joe Borowski a free out, but AT LEAST take the easy stolen base off the worst defensive catcher in the game before you do it. That way, the bunt gets Owens to 3rd and Thome's just missed it flyout to right field ties the game. What a concept!! I mean come on, Owens stole 2nd on the first pitch earlier, Pods stole 2nd on the 1st pitch earlier, they both were safe by a mile, AND that was off Jack Westbrook, who has a far, far better pickoff move than Joe Blow. Ozzie should be glad we suck and that the newspaper writers here never ask him a tough question, because that was epic work in the bottom of the 9th last night.

I'm with you on this one. Not only that, I wouldn't criticize Ozzie if Owens had been thrown out. I'm not crazy about the sac bunt when you're behind, and the Sox shouldn't have been giving up an out last night, when they struggled to get any kind of hit. That being said, a sac bunt moving the runner to third was much more preferable. I'm not a big fan of Ozzie as a game day manager, never have been.

[striker]

How about dogging Thome, Kornerko and Pierzynski? They all had a chance to tie the game. All they had to do is get a single off Joe Fing Borowski. This team, even though they tease us with wins, is still full of losers.

[Kalapse]

When did I say he NEVER gets on base? I just agreed with the guy that said him not doing well in the clutch is getting old.

You're high, either that or you're not watching the games. I broke it down about 2 weeks ago, I went through each and every one of his HRs from last season and found that the GREAT majority of them were crucial, playing a HUGE part in the success of a team that won 90 games. I'll go back and repost it in here since apparently the whole lot of you need a refresher course every other week or so. If you want to see it yourself go back to the July 24th game thread somewhere near the end, if you don't know what game that is, it's the one where Jim "insanely unclutch" Thome hit a 3 run HR in the bottom of the 7th to put the Sox within 1 run in a game they ended up winning. Without that blast they lose but I know, he loves the solo HR in the 8th inning of blowouts. He sucks. He needs to go.

 

And only with Sox fans would a .289 batting average and .451 on base percentage in close and late situations be a bad thing.

[CWSGuy406]

Frankly I thought that we executed perfectly with the middle of the order coming up. If he got thrown out trying to steal would you have created the thread for Ozzie sending him?

 

If we can't trust Jerry Owens to steal a bag in that situation, pray tell, what exactly is Jerry Owens on the big leaguer roster for?

 

And if Owens would've gotten thrown out, the blame would've been squarely on Jerry Owens for getting thrown out by Victor f***ing Martinez.

[Yossarian]

How about dogging Thome, Kornerko and Pierzynski? They all had a chance to tie the game. All they had to do is get a single off Joe Fing Borowski. This team, even though they tease us with wins, is still full of losers.

Of course that is also correct. Some of us may criticize Ozzie from time to time, but his players are having trouble executing any kind of strategy he may employ.

 

[LVSoxFan]

I'm not sure what Ozzie did wrong last night. We had a guy in scoring position and three of our slugging veterans come up to the plate. One even with a fourth out after that botched foul.

 

And none of them delivered.

 

Ozzie screwed up how again?

[iamshack]

He should have been stealing. That's what he is on this team to do. Lost in all this is that Fields laid down a crap bunt that if Victor Martinez has any stones he tells JoBo to go to second where they had Jerry Owens dead to rights with any kind of throw. The entire thing should have backfired. Luckily, it didn't.

 

I'm sorry, I understand that JoBo is a tightrope closer, but he's 31 for 34 in save opportunties. Teams have been putting the tying run in scoring position with less than two outs on him all damn year, and he's not giving up the big hit.

 

Based on the performance of our offense all night long, I'm excited as hell that Jerry gets on thanks to a gift from Victor and I am taking my chances running on a righthander. If we were three games up in this division, and have been executing all year long, I lay the bunt down and hope for the base hit. But we have not been executing. We are 10.5 games out of first place. Desperate times call for desperate measures. This is not even counting the fact that Victor is probably a little nervy after not catching the third strike. I tell Josh to take two, and tell Jerry to pick a pitch and get a jump. If he beats it, you need Josh to get him over. If he gets thrown out, you still have three home run hitters in a row at the dish.

[Harry Chappas]

I think what this thread is coming down to is the fact that there were options here and the one's choosen failed.

 

If Uribe is on first in that situation or say Fields then the bunt works. The thing was the battery combination along with Owens speed is what this team wants to be known for. If I-Rod is behind the plate or a leftie is on the mound then the bunt is best.

 

Flip the situation to this, Granderson on first, no outs, Polanco-Sheffield-Ordonez up, what do you do with Jenks/AJ.....

 

I think the situation last evening had the opportuntiy to see waht Owens was made of. Stone said Owens could get a huge lead.

 

I would've liked to have seen the Fields at-bat play out a little more. There just never seems to be a creative managerial move made from the White Sox and I think the lack of a good bench coach is the reason.

[iamshack]

No.

 

But there would be some more evidence against Jerry Owens as a major leaguer. And I'm sure there would have been a thread on that.

 

Let's remember Game 4 of the World Series. Willie harris reaches on a single, but Ozzie is bunting with Pods. Why? Because Willie has been killed by the media and the team for his inability to steal a base. JD comes through with 2 outs.

 

If Owens can't be counted on to steal in a key situation, why isn't he being run out of town like Harris?

 

In a tie game you go the more conservative route. When you're down a run, you have to gamble a bit more in my opinion.

Edited August 8, 2007 by iamshack