29andPoplar Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Well I will respectfully bow out of this discussion because it seems like there's some personal history here and I don't want to be in the middle. Have a great afternoon and Saturday evening gents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Yeah, and Owens subsequently stole second without a throw from Martinez. Owens is stealing bases at an 84% clip this year. If he can't trust Owens to nab second in that situation (awful defensive catcher behind the plate, a soft-tosser with a below average move to first on the mound), what good is Owens to the Sox? CWS, I will answer this and then bow out, yes, I tend to agree that Owens is not much good if not using (or allowed to use) his speed. But then again I'm a bit biased because I don't think Jerry will ever be a key piece for a White Sox team that contends for a championship. But anyways I guess my main point was Guillen took the conservative route and showed faith in his proven veteran players to get the job done (get a base hit to drive in the tying run). One could certainly argue he did not show faith in Owens' ability to steal a key base. The flip side to that, of course, is he showed faith in a young player - Josh Fields - to get down a key bunt at a critical time. I understood why he made the bunt call. Thought it was conservative, but understood the rationale. We have to remember too, that if Owens swipes 2nd base, that changes Cleveland's strategy. The whole inning could've been played out differently and there is no guarantee Thome hits a deep fly ball. Anyways ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 11, 2007 -> 07:17 PM) But then again I'm a bit biased because I don't think Jerry will ever be a key piece for a White Sox team that contends for a championship. Oh, don't get me wrong -- if Jerry Owens is anything more than a fourth outfielder on next year's team, we're most likely in some trouble. I've been calling JO a fourth outfielder for more than a year now, so I know where you're coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 11, 2007 -> 02:09 PM) Lynch mob smartasses? When people can provide some reasonable content, like 29thandPoplar, we can have reasonable discussion/debate. [ If only you knew... But when you resort to the same irrelevant BS that pops up in just about every Ozzie thread: You get 'smartassery'. You get what you deserve. Tell me how Ozzie winning a ring holds ANY relevance to an individual move made in August of 2007. Oh, right... Two things. I was far from the first smartassed comment in this thread, but I am sure you wouldn't go back and give smartassery to anyone who disagreed with you. Two, it isn't just one critisizm of Guillen. If I went back and pulled up every mindless critizism of Ozzie my kids would be in college by the time I was done. If you think this is a one time thing, you are kidding yourself worse than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 (edited) I was here for a long time, and then gone for a longer time. I don't know who has what personal history with who. That being said, Ozzie has given many examples of his curious game day strategies dating back to his first year at the helm. Winning a World Series gives both Ozzie and KW lots of slack with most Sox fans, as witnessed by the 38-10 vote in Ozzie's favor here. Edited August 11, 2007 by Yossarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Look, it's not that Ozzie doesn't make mistakes. Far from it. But f***ing EVERY DAY we see the same second hand "outguess the manager" AFTER the game is over. Baseball is a game of strategy and odds. Ozzie plays the odds more often then not, but yet, when he plays it "conservative" to try to give his veterans on the club a chance to do their job, we get this s*** day in and day out and on and on and on and on. Again, he's not perfect. But he certainly has a lot more sense then 99.% of you f***s on this board and that includes me. To b**** about it EVERY DAY shows the shallowness of a lot of people. It's a GAME for cripes sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 QUOTE(Yossarian @ Aug 11, 2007 -> 06:34 PM) I was here for a long time, and then gone for a longer time. I don't know who has what personal history with who. That being said, Ozzie has given many examples of his curious game day strategies dating back to his first year at the helm. Winning a World Series gives both Ozzie and KW lots of slack with most Sox fans, as witnessed by the 38-10 vote in Ozzie's favor here. The question of the thread is "Is the Ozzie bashing getting old", not "Do you think Ozzie and KW deserve some slack because they won a world series" The answer to the thread question is yes. Nothing new is ever said, just complaining and second guessing continually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 I'm sure Konerko is well rested for tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 (edited) No because this isn't the same Ozzie that managed the WS. It was about the team, now it's all about Ozzie. I'll edit out the rest because it's been hashed enough. Edited August 12, 2007 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 No because this isn't the same Ozzie that managed the WS. It was about the team, now it's all about Ozzie. I'll edit out the rest because it's been hashed enough. You couldn't be more incorrect, but that's been hashed out enough as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 12, 2007 -> 10:08 AM) You couldn't be more incorrect, but that's been hashed out enough as well. You underestimate Ozzie's ego, temper, and at times favoritism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 You underestimate Ozzie's ego, temper, and at times favoritism. Actually I underestimate nothing. I have been around the team quite a bit in spring and see how much effort he and the coaches put into the players, the relationships, the teamwork and camaraderie. A lot of this ego, temper, and supposed favoritism is complete crap, a product of the media and message boards. A fan puts a spin on something and suddenly it's gospel. He is far from perfect, far from it. He makes mistakes but his heart is in the right place, and that place is wanting this team to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 12, 2007 -> 11:19 AM) Actually I underestimate nothing. I have been around the team quite a bit in spring and see how much effort he and the coaches put into the players, the relationships, the teamwork and camaraderie. A lot of this ego, temper, and supposed favoritism is complete crap, a product of the media and message boards. A fan puts a spin on something and suddenly it's gospel. He is far from perfect, far from it. He makes mistakes but his heart is in the right place, and that place is wanting this team to win. OK I respect your viewpoint. Even maybe to the point that I may "listen" more to your posts with the possible result of tempering some of my opinions. I doubt however, that we will ever see completely eye to eye on Ozzie. I'm not an "Ozzie is a total idiot" kind of guy. I just think he brings equally strong strengths and weaknesses to the table. Edit. 29 and Poplar Al Lopez is my favorite all time White Sox manager. I also think he's the best the Sox ever had. Lopez had a legendary temper, and at times could overdo it when a player of his got in the doghouse. He cost the Sox their best chance to win the 59 WS when he froze Billy Pierce out of the rotation. At various times he came down hard on Floyd Robinson, Ray Herbert and Jim Landis. He didn't campaign hard for Nellie Fox's induction into the HOF. Some say it was because Foxie took his roommate Pierce's side in 59. Still all in all, he got more out of less than any manager I've ever seen. He was the game day strategist that I wish Ozzie was. The debate for me about Ozzie isn't personal. In the same vein I see the faults of the late Al Lopez and still give him his HOF due. Give Ozzie another speed, pitching, defense team and see if he can do it again. Especially the speed part, an integral part of Ozzie's game. Edited August 12, 2007 by Yossarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Looks like I missed a good week to be out of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 There needs to be some more Greg Walker bashing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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