And That's a White Sox Loser

[Dick Allen]

Well I'd guess on his stuff, the fact that not many knuckleballers have made it over the past 20 years, and his record this season in the minors.

 

Just on Floyd, how did his curveball look in his start yesterday? From what I heard in Detroit it was really working for him.

 

If he's missing his 1st pitch strikes as well, really sounds like the problem Jon Garland had 3-4 years ago.

Its a pretty bold move to say he has no chance, but Floyd does. Haeger has had just as much, if not more success in the minors than Floyd and I look at Tim Wakefield when I say be patient with Haeger. Charlie hasn't been throwing the knuckler that long. Wakefield started out great for Pittsburgh but the next season was awful in Pittsburgh and the minor leagues, the following season struggled at AAA, got released, but has been a pretty decent pitcher for the past 13 seasons in Boston. I would say there is a far better chance of Haeger being an average pitcher than there is of Floyd matching Wakefield's career.

[kwolf68]

Its a pretty bold move to say he has no chance, but Floyd does. Haeger has had just as much, if not more success in the minors than Floyd and I look at Tim Wakefield when I say be patient with Haeger. Charlie hasn't been throwing the knuckler that long. Wakefield started out great for Pittsburgh but the next season was awful in Pittsburgh and the minor leagues, the following season struggled at AAA, got released, but has been a pretty decent pitcher for the past 13 seasons in Boston. I would say there is a far better chance of Haeger being an average pitcher than there is of Floyd matching Wakefield's career.

 

 

Haeger and Floyd have pitched about the exact same number of AAA innings this year...Haeger has given up more hits, more runs, more walks, more homers, has a higher WHIP, far higher era, 9 more losses, and a grand total of 2 more strikeouts.

 

and as far as this quote...

 

I would say there is a far better chance of Haeger being an average pitcher than there is of Floyd matching Wakefield's career.

 

is mixing up multiple arguments. Tim Wakefield is the benchmark for Haeger...I guess Tim Seaver is the benchmark for Floyd then. But you are right, there is a better chance of Haeger being average because I doubt Floyd ever sniffs 160+ career wins. However, that doesn't mean Haeger will do crap either. Actually, I bet Floyd wins more career major league games than Haeger...Ill say Floyd wins 18 career games and Haeger wins 8...they both stink.

[Balta1701]

Well I'd guess on his stuff, the fact that not many knuckleballers have made it over the past 20 years, and his record this season in the minors.

 

Just on Floyd, how did his curveball look in his start yesterday? From what I heard in Detroit it was really working for him.

 

If he's missing his 1st pitch strikes as well, really sounds like the problem Jon Garland had 3-4 years ago.

The Granny was on a curve ball.

 

Hawk commented on this a couple times during the game...all Floyd really threw in a couple of his problem innings was fastballs. The first inning and the 4th, he mainly featured just the fastball. In the in-between innings, he was mixing it up quite a bit more, esp. getting in a few changeups. In the 4th, he was back to mostly fastball, and when he did throw the curve, it hung like nobody's business and flew 375 feet.

[CWSGuy406]

Inconclusive.

 

Haeger hasn't gotten AAA hitters out this year and didn't get major league hitters out in his stint this season.

 

As to why Floyd deserves a shot over Haeger? It's simple, really, and not very hard to understand -- Floyd is out of options beyond this season, Haeger isn't (at least that I know of). We can afford to be patient with Haeger so he can learn to get AAA hitters outdo his work.

 

Haeger has had just as much, if not more success in the minors than Floyd and I look at Tim Wakefield when I say be patient with Haeger.

 

The knuckleball is all cute and dandy, but I'll say it again -- there's a reason there's only been ONE successful knuckleballer over the past twenty years. Me? I see it more likely that Haeger becomes Steve Sparks than Tim Wakefield.

[Gregory Pratt]

Haeger hasn't gotten AAA hitters out this year and didn't get major league hitters out in his stint this season.

 

As to why Floyd deserves a shot over Haeger? It's simple, really, and not very hard to understand -- Floyd is out of options beyond this season, Haeger isn't (at least that I know of). We can afford to be patient with Haeger so he can learn to get AAA hitters outdo his work.

 

Haeger has had just as much, if not more success in the minors than Floyd and I look at Tim Wakefield when I say be patient with Haeger.

 

The knuckleball is all cute and dandy, but I'll say it again -- there's a reason there's only been ONE successful knuckleballer over the past twenty years. Me? I see it more likely that Haeger becomes Steve Sparks than Tim Wakefield.

 

I didn't ask why Floyd deserves a shot over Haeger, did I?

[Gregory Pratt]

PS: I see you're really going out on a limb by predicting that Haeger won't amount to anything.

[jasonxctf]

Haeger (5/8 outings= good)

 

first 5 outings= good

last 3 outings= bad

 

Floyd (2/6 outings=good)

 

first 2 outings= bad

next 1 outing= good

next 1 outing= bad

next 1 outing= good

next 1 outing= bad

 

Neither is starter material currently, however I'd take Haeger out of the pen any day of the week.

 

[Dick Allen]

Haeger hasn't gotten AAA hitters out this year and didn't get major league hitters out in his stint this season.

 

As to why Floyd deserves a shot over Haeger? It's simple, really, and not very hard to understand -- Floyd is out of options beyond this season, Haeger isn't (at least that I know of). We can afford to be patient with Haeger so he can learn to get AAA hitters outdo his work.

 

Haeger has had just as much, if not more success in the minors than Floyd and I look at Tim Wakefield when I say be patient with Haeger.

 

The knuckleball is all cute and dandy, but I'll say it again -- there's a reason there's only been ONE successful knuckleballer over the past twenty years. Me? I see it more likely that Haeger becomes Steve Sparks than Tim Wakefield.

Floyd has had his shot. How many times do you have to bang your head into a wall before you realize it hurts so you stop? That's what I think when people say he needs a chance. Seriously, what would Floyd have to do for the White Sox to say, you know what, that guy is the fifth starter next year? Aren't we really past the point of no doubt with him? Even if he was pretty good the rest of the year which is about as likely as Pratt and me buying Floyd jerseys and starting a fan club for him, you still couldn't count on him. These games are meaningless to evaluate. Its going to come down to next spring no matter what happens the rest of the year, unless he is so horrible they don't even bother with that. Put him in relief and pick his spots, maybe he'll get some confidence and will get that look that he is about to cry off his face. I doubt it, but the rotation is a waste of time. Put Contreras back in the rotation or give someone else a shot, whether its Haeger or Gio or whatever. BTW Tom Candiotti was a decent knuckleballer as was Charlie Hough.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Dick Allen

[Gregory Pratt]

Floyd has had his shot. How many times do you have to bang your head into a wall before you realize it hurts so you stop? That's what I think when people say he needs a chance. Seriously, what would Floyd have to do for the White Sox to say, you know what, that guy is the fifth starter next year? Aren't we really past the point of no doubt with him? Even if he was pretty good the rest of the year which is about as likely as Pratt and me buying Floyd jerseys and starting a fan club for him, you still couldn't count on him. These games are meaningless to evaluate. Its going to come down to next spring no matter what happens the rest of the year, unless he is so horrible they don't even bother with that. Put him in relief and pick his spots, maybe he'll get some confidence and will get that look that he is about to cry off his face. I doubt it, but the rotation is a waste of time. Put Contreras back in the rotation or give someone else a shot, whether its Haeger or Gio or whatever. BTW Tom Candiotti was a decent knuckleballer as was Charlie Hough.

 

I was there Saturday with my cousins who are sort of like my younger brothers and we were there, mainly, to watch Ichiro because they know as well as I that he's something special and it's great to go to the ballpark and watch the men who'll be legends you tell your kids about. (They're also big on the young guys. Much bigger on Owens than I or anyone else is, but they're young kids, so it's okay. They like Fields a lot, too, but so do I.) Well, they're well-versed in the legend of Gavin Floyd as told by me, and one of my cousins said that watching Floyd made him feel like he'd been robbed because he doesn't throw consistent strikes, has an ugly motion, lacks confidence and his stuff isn't that good (cue: BETTER ARM THAN VAZQUEZ[in High School, right?]talk).

 

Floyd just doesn't have it. I, too, wonder when enough will be enough, for him and the fans. I think Ozzie's leash on him is pretty short and might have been cut already if not for the fact that KW traded Garcia for him.

[southsider2k5]

Floyd has had his shot. How many times do you have to bang your head into a wall before you realize it hurts so you stop? That's what I think when people say he needs a chance. Seriously, what would Floyd have to do for the White Sox to say, you know what, that guy is the fifth starter next year? Aren't we really past the point of no doubt with him? Even if he was pretty good the rest of the year which is about as likely as Pratt and me buying Floyd jerseys and starting a fan club for him, you still couldn't count on him. These games are meaningless to evaluate. Its going to come down to next spring no matter what happens the rest of the year, unless he is so horrible they don't even bother with that. Put him in relief and pick his spots, maybe he'll get some confidence and will get that look that he is about to cry off his face. I doubt it, but the rotation is a waste of time. Put Contreras back in the rotation or give someone else a shot, whether its Haeger or Gio or whatever. BTW Tom Candiotti was a decent knuckleballer as was Charlie Hough.

 

So truthfully, how quickly would you have traded off Jon Garland his career? The second year? How about a guy like Greg Maddux who got off to an awful start, or even a Jeremy Bonderman?

[Dick Allen]

So truthfully, how quickly would you have traded off Jon Garland his career? The second year? How about a guy like Greg Maddux who got off to an awful start, or even a Jeremy Bonderman?

You have 5,000,000 posts and this is the first really silly one I've ever seen.

[Gregory Pratt]

The comparisons begin with mediocrity at the ML level at a fairly young age. The comparison ends there, too. Floyd was never able to adjust or get better and in fact is getting worse. Garland and Maddux are far and above him.

[Heads22]

The comparisons begin with mediocrity at the ML level at a fairly young age. The comparison ends there, too. Floyd was never able to adjust or get better and in fact is getting worse. Garland and Maddux are far and above him.

 

 

Garland sucked pretty hard his first year (69 innings) and took like half the year in the next year before settling down.

[Dick Allen]

Garland sucked pretty hard his first year (69 innings) and took like half the year in the next year before settling down.

He was 20 years old. Maddux sucked pretty bad too, but he won 19 when he was 23. Bonderman is 3 months older than Floyd. Comparing those guys with Floyd makes no sense.

[Gregory Pratt]

He was 20 years old. Maddux sucked pretty bad too, but he won 19 when he was 23. Bonderman is 3 months older than Floyd. Comparing those guys with Floyd makes no sense.

 

Thanks.

[CWSGuy406]

Comparing those guys with Floyd makes no sense.

 

Makes about as much sense as comparing Charlie Haeger and Tim Wakefield.

[greg775]

Man, Fields homered again tonight.

That guy is blasting a lotta homers.

Maybe it's time to move him to leftfield.

If Crede comes back he plays third. Of course if Crede doesn't come

back then we're hosed in my scenario.

But Fields may be the real deal power wise.

 

I don't know why a lot of you are convinced Richar is gonna be good.

It's easy to find a serviceable second baseman like Durham and Richar

isn't hitting yet. We need a second baseman to hit at least .270.

Owens is still a hitting risk in the of.

We definitely need to buy some ballplayers from other organizations

if we hope to win next year.

Fields looks like the real deal; verdict out on most other of our youngsters

except

maybe Danks. Danks has done decent hasn't he?

Edited August 15, 2007 by greg775

[briguy27]

Man, Fields homered again tonight.

That guy is blasting a lotta homers.

Maybe it's time to move him to leftfield.

If Crede comes back he plays third. Of course if Crede doesn't come

back then we're hosed in my scenario.

But Fields may be the real deal power wise.

 

I don't know why a lot of you are convinced Richar is gonna be good.

It's easy to find a serviceable second baseman like Durham and Richar

isn't hitting yet. We need a second baseman to hit at least .270.

Owens is still a hitting risk in the of.

We definitely need to buy some ballplayers from other organizations

if we hope to win next year.

Fields looks like the real deal; verdict out on most other of our youngsters

except

maybe Danks. Danks has done decent hasn't he?

 

[witesoxfan]

Haeger has absolutely no shot at being an above average major league pitcher. Gavin Floyd does.

Based on what?

 

 

Its a pretty bold move to say he has no chance, but Floyd does. Haeger has had just as much, if not more success in the minors than Floyd and I look at Tim Wakefield when I say be patient with Haeger. Charlie hasn't been throwing the knuckler that long. Wakefield started out great for Pittsburgh but the next season was awful in Pittsburgh and the minor leagues, the following season struggled at AAA, got released, but has been a pretty decent pitcher for the past 13 seasons in Boston. I would say there is a far better chance of Haeger being an average pitcher than there is of Floyd matching Wakefield's career.

 

What exactly are you arguing again?

 

I've said before that we already know what Haeger is, and that's a 5.00 ERA, without ever having him set foot in the rotation. I don't find it to be a bold statement, and I may be wrong and he may turn into a 4.50 ERA starter. So, he turns from a 5 starter to a 4 starter. Or he may bounce around from team to team only to find himself in Japan by the age of 32, ala Jared Fernandez (though he was 33), and never find success in the majors. Whatever the case, I think you'll agree that over the course of his career, Haeger will not be an above average starting pitcher.

 

However, for every Chad Durbin, Ruben Quevedo, Bob Wolcott, John Snyder, Mark Thompson, Carlton Loewer, Brian Rose, Jose Acevedo, Sean Douglass, etc, etc, there is one Roy Halladay. Or perhaps Jon Garland or Jeremy Bonderman (age aside, because that's not the argument). Odds are against him, and I would honestly be surprised if he were on the roster come next April, but that doesn't change the fact that the possibility remains that he can become an above average major league pitcher. And all I was saying was that Floyd's 1% shot at being an above average major league starting pitcher is better than Haeger's 0% shot.

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Good God. First of all, what a typical bull s*** ending to a loss at Oakland, figures. And DAMN I didn't see it live, but that Fields homer easily cleared that all 388 sign out there, another 415 foot or so home run. He doesn't get cheated on his bombs at all. Great job once again by the bullpen too, they are really showing some encouraging signs for 2008.

[Dick Allen]

Good God. First of all, what a typical bull s*** ending to a loss at Oakland, figures. And DAMN I didn't see it live, but that Fields homer easily cleared that all 388 sign out there, another 415 foot or so home run. He doesn't get cheated on his bombs at all. Great job once again by the bullpen too, they are really showing some encouraging signs for 2008.

How can you take what the bullpen does from here on out and possibly think that will translate to success next year? Wasn't MacDougal lights out last year? Didn't Aardsma pitch well for the Cubs the last couple of months? Didn't Masset show signs with Texas and in Mexico of being a solid contributor? In fact the one guy who was pretty bad the second half of last year now has a major league record for consecutive batters retired. Its nice that the bullpen is doing better, but its too little, too late, and as Steve Stone said, the front of the bullpen is "a mess".

[EvilJester99]

Only bad thing about these bullpen guys pitching so well is that the pressure is off now. I am just hoping KW doesn't get fooled by this recent surge by the pen.

[Yossarian]

And all I was saying was that Floyd's 1% shot at being an above average major league starting pitcher is better than Haeger's 0% shot.

I disagree with your math. I give Floyd a 1% shot at being about as good as Jaime Navarro was when he pitched for us.

[witesoxfan]

I disagree with your math. I give Floyd a 1% shot at being about as good as Jaime Navarro was when he pitched for us.

 

and a 99% chance of being better

[Yossarian]

and a 99% chance of being better

As bad as Navarro was, Floyd isn't even close to that effective yet. I've been following the Sox longer than most here have been alive, and I'm trying to think of a starting pitcher who's looked and performed worse. I'm still trying. I think I should call a truce on this. Enough of Sox fans beating each other up over this guy. Obviously lots of you want to, or need to believe in him. I see no Maddux, or Garland, or Verlander in him.

 

and one of my cousins said that watching Floyd made him feel like he'd been robbed because he doesn't throw consistent strikes, has an ugly motion, lacks confidence and his stuff isn't that good (cue: BETTER ARM THAN VAZQUEZ[in High School, right?]talk).

 

Floyd just doesn't have it. I, too, wonder when enough will be enough, for him and the fans. I think Ozzie's leash on him is pretty short and might have been cut already if not for the fact that KW traded Garcia for him.

That about sums it up for me. Your cousin's a sharp kid.