Are you religious?

[FlaSoxxJim]

So we can decide morality for the nation? My views should be rejected because I go to Church? How about anyone that drinks beer shouldn't be allowed to force their views of alcohol laws on anyone? If you own stocks you shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on financial matters?

 

Perhaps I mis-speak when I say morality cannot be legislated, and I really mean morality ought not be legislated. Cartainly laws can and do have moral weight, but they should not be based on relativistic moral positions (e.g., I'm a racist so I'm going to push for a new set of Jim Crow laws even if my position is not representative of societal mores.).

[FlaSoxxJim]

I feel bad whenever I "sin"... the thing is though, I sin a lot.

 

Left hand or right hand?

 

[Controlled Chaos]

 

I'm not the one going to hell!!

[Texsox]

Perhaps I mis-speak when I say morality cannot be legislated, and I really mean morality ought not be legislated. Cartainly laws can and do have moral weight, but they should not be based on relativistic moral positions (e.g., I'm a racist so I'm going to push for a new set of Jim Crow laws even if my position is not representative of societal mores.).

 

Aren't all laws based on morality?

[vandy125]

Perhaps I mis-speak when I say morality cannot be legislated, and I really mean morality ought not be legislated. Cartainly laws can and do have moral weight, but they should not be based on relativistic moral positions (e.g., I'm a racist so I'm going to push for a new set of Jim Crow laws even if my position is not representative of societal mores.).

So laws should be based upon a common agreed societal position? What if the racist position was a representative of societal mores? Can you say that the Jim Crow laws are wrong if everyone else says they are right? What if 50% say it is right and 50% say that it is not?

[hammerhead johnson]

So laws should be based upon a common agreed societal position? What if the racist position was a representative of societal mores? Can you say that the Jim Crow laws are wrong if everyone else says they are right? What if 50% say it is right and 50% say that it is not?

 

Taken from my old Criminal Justice book:

 

The Consensus Model assumes that as people gather together to form a society, its members will naturally come to a basic agreement with regard to shared norms and values. To a certain extent, it assumes that a diverse group of people can have similar morals; that is, they share an idea of what is "right" and what is "wrong". Consequently, as public attitudes toward morality change, so do laws. In colonial times, those found guilty of adultery were subjected to corporal punishment; a century ago, one could walk into a pharmacy and purchase heroin. Today, social attitudes have shifted to consider adultery a personal issue, beyond the purview of the state, and to consider the sale of heroin a criminal act. When a consensus does not exist as to whether a certain act falls within the parameters of acceptable behavior, a period of uncertainty ensues as society struggles to formalize its attitudes as law.

 

Those who reject the consensus model do so on the ground that moral attitudes are not absolute. In large democratic societies such as the United States, different segments of society will inevitably have different value systems and shared norms. According to the Conflict Model, these different segments - separated by social class, income, age, and race - are engaged in a constant struggle with one another for control of society. The victorious groups exercise their power by codifying their value systems into criminal laws. Consequently, what is deemed criminal activity is determined by whichever group happens to be holding power at any given time. Because certain groups do not have access to political power, their interestes are not served by the criminal justice system . To give one example, the penalty (five years in prison) for possession of 5 grams of crack cocaine is the same as for possession of 500 grams of powder cocaine. This 1:100 ratio has widespread implications for inner-city African Americans, who are statistically more likley to get caught using crack cocaine than are white suburbanites, who appear to favor the illicit drug in its powdered form.

Edited August 14, 2007 by hammerhead johnson

[BearSox]

Left hand or right hand?

 

 

both....

[sox4lifeinPA]

looks like 3 to 2 in favor of the non-religious.

 

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

looks like 3 to 2 in favor of the non-religious.

 

That's some Karl Rove Math there, huh? As of right now. 19 people have confirmed spiritual leanings, 4 are undecided, and 17 are decidedly secular.

 

Remind me not to have you do my banking.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Aren't all laws based on morality?

 

 

So laws should be based upon a common agreed societal position? What if the racist position was a representative of societal mores? Can you say that the Jim Crow laws are wrong if everyone else says they are right? What if 50% say it is right and 50% say that it is not?

 

Hammerhead pretty much encapsulated the response I'd give. And I concede the real question is not then can we legislate morality, but whose morality do we legislate?

[sox4lifeinPA]

That's some Karl Rove Math there, huh? As of right now. 19 people have confirmed spiritual leanings, 4 are undecided, and 17 are decidedly secular.

 

Remind me not to have you do my banking.

 

 

Religious

 

Yes, I attend services 3 or 4 times a month [ 9 ]

Yes, but I don't make it to services very often [ 5 ]

Christmas and Easter (and when someone drags me) Christian, baby! (or Yom Kippur Jew or Ramadan Muslim, etc) [ 2 ]

 

total: 16

 

Non Religious

 

I'm more spiritual than religious, per se [ 3 ]

I'm still trying to figure that out [ 4 ]

Nope, not at all. [ 10 ]

Is atheism a religion? [ 7 ]

 

total: 24

 

in otherwords: 3 to 2

 

 

Remind me not to have you do my science....

[vandy125]

Hammerhead pretty much encapsulated the response I'd give. And I concede the real question is not then can we legislate morality, but whose morality do we legislate?

Didn't you say we legislate by popular opinion, or did I read it wrong? If it is by popular opinion, then you have to say that there is no true right and wrong, it is a matter of opinion. And the moment, you say that your opinion is right and mine is wrong, you are bringing a standard into the equation. So, which would it be? Is there a standard, or is it an opinion of the masses?

[Soxy]

Religious

 

Yes, I attend services 3 or 4 times a month [ 9 ]

Yes, but I don't make it to services very often [ 5 ]

Christmas and Easter (and when someone drags me) Christian, baby! (or Yom Kippur Jew or Ramadan Muslim, etc) [ 2 ]

 

total: 16

 

Non Religious

 

I'm more spiritual than religious, per se [ 3 ]

I'm still trying to figure that out [ 4 ]

Nope, not at all. [ 10 ]

Is atheism a religion? [ 7 ]

 

total: 24

 

in otherwords: 3 to 2

Remind me not to have you do my science....

 

Personally, I would group the spiritual but not religious and the seekers in sort of a no man's land. Not necessarily non-religious, more of a still looking sort of thing.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'd consider the "still trying to figure it out" group to be like an abstain vote - they aren't religious fully, but they may be involved and doubting. That makes the current count 20 non-religious, 17 religious and 4 undetermined. And the "spiritual more than religious" group is interesting to me.

 

Maybe another poll question should be... do you believe in some sort of God(s), divine power(s), first mover or spiritual presence(s)? I'd be curious to see if that number was as close a call as the religious/non-religious is.

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

Religious

 

Yes, I attend services 3 or 4 times a month [ 9 ]

Yes, but I don't make it to services very often [ 5 ]

Christmas and Easter (and when someone drags me) Christian, baby! (or Yom Kippur Jew or Ramadan Muslim, etc) [ 2 ]

 

total: 16

 

Non Religious

 

I'm more spiritual than religious, per se [ 3 ]

I'm still trying to figure that out [ 4 ]

Nope, not at all. [ 10 ]

Is atheism a religion? [ 7 ]

 

total: 24

 

in otherwords: 3 to 2

Remind me not to have you do my science....

 

The spiritualists are confirming their belief in some metaphysical agent and the undecided are exactly that. Whether the undecidess are agnostic (in which case they can be tallied with the secularists) or whether they are wrestling with spiritual issues is left undetermined by the survey question. But the spiritual folks believe in something beyond the physical plane so I'd not lump them with the heathens.

[NorthSideSox72]

Personally, I would group the spiritual but not religious and the seekers in sort of a no man's land. Not necessarily non-religious, more of a still looking sort of thing.

No matter how you qualify the ones in that middle ground, I think its interesting to note that there seems to be close to an even balance or religious/non, or spiritual/non. Especially since some posters (myself included) assumed there would be a landslide to one side or the other.

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

Personally, I would group the spiritual but not religious and the seekers in sort of a no man's land. Not necessarily non-religious, more of a still looking sort of thing.

 

I can accept that categorization.

[Felix]

I'm atheist, and very opposed to religion, so I'm voting for "Not at all" as opposed to "Is atheism a religion?" (maybe its just the wording or my interpretation, but "Is atheism a religion" just doesn't sound like the right answer, even though I'm very atheist)

Edited August 14, 2007 by Felix

[sox4lifeinPA]

The spiritualists are confirming their belief in some metaphysical agent and the undecided are exactly that. Whether the undecidess are agnostic (in which case they can be tallied with the secularists) or whether they are wrestling with spiritual issues is left undetermined by the survey question. But the spiritual folks believe in something beyond the physical plane so I'd not lump them with the heathens.

 

Still, Religious is different than spiritual.

 

The question is "Are you religious?"

 

the answer is that 24 people are not.

[Felix]

Still, Religious is different than spiritual.

To me, the only difference between a person that is spiritual and a person that is religious is that the religious person is just a member of an organized religion. Past that, I consider them the same thing.

 

If you're truly interested in how many people belong to an organized religion, then yes, I think you're probably right in the grouping that you've chosen. If you're interested in seeing how many people believe in any sort of god, then spiritual has to be grouped with religious.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Still, Religious is different than spiritual.

 

The question is "Are you religious?"

 

the answer is that 24 people are not.

 

Yes, I guess we've established there is an open-endedness to the categories.

 

Here's a good summarization of some 2001, 2002, 1nd 2004, national survey data. It does show a substantial decline in those who identify themselves as religious in the last 15 years, but still has over 80% of the country espousing either a religious or a spiritual bent.

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac...g/chr_prac2.htm

Edited August 14, 2007 by FlaSoxxJim

[Soxy]

I think the most interesting to me is how few people there are in the middle. Although, this is a very lovely example of a bimodal distribution. Ha.

[kapkomet]

To me, the only difference between a person that is spiritual and a person that is religious is that the religious person is just a member of an organized religion. Past that, I consider them the same thing.

 

If you're truly interested in how many people belong to an organized religion, then yes, I think you're probably right in the grouping that you've chosen. If you're interested in seeing how many people believe in any sort of god, then spiritual has to be grouped with religious.

No it doesn't.

 

Religion=something humans created to try and connect with God.

 

Spiritual=something God created and humans choose what to do with that belief, which can include "religion".

 

Loosely translated, of course.

[kapkomet]

I think the most interesting to me is how few people there are in the middle. Although, this is a very lovely example of a bimodal distribution. Ha.

Stop that statistics junk, missy...

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

To me, the only difference between a person that is spiritual and a person that is religious is that the religious person is just a member of an organized religion. Past that, I consider them the same thing.

 

If you're truly interested in how many people belong to an organized religion, then yes, I think you're probably right in the grouping that you've chosen. If you're interested in seeing how many people believe in any sort of god, then spiritual has to be grouped with religious.

 

 

I would say that someone that is religious probably has some introductory level knowledge to their religion of choice. Someone that is spiritual wouldn't necessarily have to have much knowledge other than a willingness to be open to the idea of a higher power.

 

Neither of these require a connection to an organized religion, imo. It might be splitting hairs, but I believe there are distinct differences between an "I'm not sure yet," an "I'm a spiritual person, and an "I'm a religious person"