Tigers Set to Sign Porcello

[knightni]

Here is another list...

 

Eggs

Broccoli

Cajun seasoning

Butter

Pepsi

Chicken livers

 

Broccoli = your post. Not worth eating.

 

 

Wait.

 

You think broccoli is not worth eating and you have chicken livers on your list?

 

You have some strange logic.

[southsider2k5]

Why expect it?! This is a concept I've never understood. A large percentage of our fans are completely passive concerning this issue.

 

Why should Kansas City, Pittsburgh, or Tampa Bay fans expect a championship? They don't do it well, right? If our fans have expectations of the White Sox to be the best team in baseball, why can't this sentiment transfer itself to player development? Management from Williams on down should strive to not only have a championship calibur ballclub, but a minor league system capable of producing replacement level players. Andy Gonzalez and Jerry Owens just won't cut it.

 

Personally, and I don't believe I'm alone here, I expect more from this organization. Everyone should be aboard and hold player development to the same elevated standards they have towards the major league team.

What do we have to show for the last two years of scouting other teams minor league systems and selling players at the right time? Danny Richar? Maybe. Nick "Tick Below Jenks" Masset and Gavin "Arizona Fall League" Floyd don't do much for me. I probably wouldn't have cared as much if it weren't for Williams proudly raving on the talent both possessed. As of now, either appear major league ready, and as a result, Williams looks foolish. Any benefit we've had recently from obtaining other teams prospects is minimal and overstated because of Jenks.

 

Until we have a deal comparable to that of which Minnesota received for Pierzynski, or Cleveland for Bartolo Colon (ie, franchise changing trades), then I'm not going to give Williams much credit for receiving Gonzalez and Danks in what's beginning to look more and more like one-for-one deals. I credit him for dealing McCarthy, but not for only one player worth a damn. Championships won't be won with small steps such as those. More contributing players need to return in trades if, according to you, our draft success is poor and that's just the way it is.

 

In addition, if they truly knew the best oportunity to trade players Garland would have been traded last month. We're going to go through the same issues with his contract extension as what occured with Buehrle, and -- judging from his post ASB performance -- there's a chance we're not going to receive much for him if he doesn't rebound soon. Why didn't they see this coming? I wasn't the only one on Soxtalk practically begging Garland to be traded for positional prospects.

 

Or how about Crede? He should have been traded with lingering back issues and Fields in the wing, correct? Because they were dangling him to Anaheim suggests to me the thought atleast entered their minds. It wasn't as if it was an impossible turn of events to predict. Certaintly more predictable than McCarthy breaking down.

Why not? Why can't we be the Twins? This is exactly the problem I have with comments such as yours. We're so willing to emulate the Twins on the field with their philosophy of "playing the game right" and having "grinders," yet we're not willing to match the Twins and their success from within?

 

It's just strange to me how you show absolutely no faith in the system, yet provide no criticism of Williams or anyone else. Almost as if you're virtually shrugging your shoulders. Even if you're more confident in him extracting talent from other clubs, shouldn't it be a priority of a contending ballclub to have their own draft picks succeed?

 

Our ways of acquiring talent is really more limited than people think.

 

-Boras re: draft/FA

-Don't select players overslot

-Don't have much success developing players on national or international level

-Never can be expected to outbid anyone for a high profile player

-Nature of market has made finding low-key FA's with high potential less and less likely

-Few players on the team hold significant trade value

-Fewer players on the team with value are expendable because of someone in the minors ready to replace them. Of course, the one scenario this could have benefited us was with backless Crede and Josh Fields. Only seems fitting Crede undergoes surgery.

 

I don't know about you, but I believe one of these is the easiest to change. That's option #3. To hear people dismiss it is the equivalent, in my mind, of accepting failure. I believe Shaffer's firing two months ago suggests Williams doesn't take such failures very lightly.

 

I think you all forget that the Sox are a zero sum operation as an organization. If they Sox were suddenly to start drafting the highest dollar players with every pick, and screw signability, that money would come out of the major league payroll. So which marketable $10 million dollar player are going to trade off and convince the general public that this is a good move, all to draft and sign guys that won't be in the majors for years, if ever. Are you willing to deal Jim Thome or Javy Vazquez for what might happen in 2010, 2011, or so, and still think that people will come to the ballpark and support a smaller payroll until that point? Again the Sox do not draft and develop talent well. I don't know how you can't take that as a critizism of the Williams group, but I guess I have to post it all caps or something to make that clear. The difference is that I understand the effort and our payroll go to the major league side of things. In the Williams time as GM, we have usually been a good team. This is the first time in almost 20 years that we are looking at this bad of a team, so it is hard to say that they have been doing it wrong.

 

Secondly if having such an awesome minor league organization was so easy, why don't all of the other teams do it, and forget all of the high dollar players? I love pointing to two of the most lopsided trades in the last 20 years, and making it seem like those deals happen all of the time. How many of those type of deals really happen? Again, if there were that many completely stupid GMs out there, everyone would be doing those deals. If you are lucky, you see a deal that lopsided every few years.

[iamshack]

I think you all forget that the Sox are a zero sum operation as an organization. If they Sox were suddenly to start drafting the highest dollar players with every pick, and screw signability, that money would come out of the major league payroll. So which marketable $10 million dollar player are going to trade off and convince the general public that this is a good move, all to draft and sign guys that won't be in the majors for years, if ever. Are you willing to deal Jim Thome or Javy Vazquez for what might happen in 2010, 2011, or so, and still think that people will come to the ballpark and support a smaller payroll until that point? Again the Sox do not draft and develop talent well. I don't know how you can't take that as a critizism of the Williams group, but I guess I have to post it all caps or something to make that clear. The difference is that I understand the effort and our payroll go to the major league side of things. In the Williams time as GM, we have usually been a good team. This is the first time in almost 20 years that we are looking at this bad of a team, so it is hard to say that they have been doing it wrong.

 

Secondly if having such an awesome minor league organization was so easy, why don't all of the other teams do it, and forget all of the high dollar players? I love pointing to two of the most lopsided trades in the last 20 years, and making it seem like those deals happen all of the time. How many of those type of deals really happen? Again, if there were that many completely stupid GMs out there, everyone would be doing those deals. If you are lucky, you see a deal that lopsided every few years.

 

Great post.

 

I cannot stand this nonsense about the Bartolo Colon deal and the Aj Pierzynski deal. Go to other team's message boards, and on EVERY one of them you will find their fans demanding their GM make a deal similar to those two. If the fans know it, you don't think the GM's recognize that? If anything, those two deals and the attention they have continually received has made it far less likely that another will occur. No GM wants to make a deal like that and get fleeced. And if we haven't seen the evidence of that in the last two years, I don't know what we've seen.

 

As for Liriano, the key to his return is that the very pitch that made him so dominant is the same that caused his injury. That slider creates enormous stress on his elbow and obviously caused him to miss this entire season. When he returns, will he attempt to throw it? Will he throw a variation of it? Will he reinjure his arm again and again and again like Kerry Wood? To say he can return to duplicate or even at all closely replicate his 06' success is extraordinarily speculative at the very least.

 

In terms of MichaelAngelosMonkey, he was not trying to claim that the White Sox have not been as lucky as any other team. What he was claiming is that you cannot praise the Twin's success as a skill, and at the same time chalk up all the White Sox' success as luck. Both have received plenty of luck within the last several years.

 

What the Twins have done well over the past several years is put together amazing bullpens and tailor their ballclub to the Humphreydome. They have not produced an amazing number of solid homegrown position players, their success developing starting pitchers has been overstated, and they have continually been exposed in the postseason. Certainly their sustained success in this decade has been admirable, but basically, if things hold true this season, they will have won 1 postseason series while having the best starting pitcher in baseball and one of the best bullpens in baseball for the last 4-5 years. It's great and all that they have won division titles with a lower payroll, but let's not confuse their run with the Oakland A's of the early seventies.

 

I think it's fairly clear that there are several issues within the White Sox organization which need to be addressed. One is certainly international scouting. Another is their refusal to wholeheartedly consider players represented by Scott Boras. Another is their philosophy of drafting low-risk pitchers. However, anyone who has watched baseball for any sustained period of time realizes how quickly things can change, especially when there is a little money that can be spent. Certainly this organization does some things better than they do others; however, I must say I have faith in their overall ability to position this team in a favorable spot for the next several years, despite how putrid the major league team has looked throughout this season.

 

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

Great post.

 

I cannot stand this nonsense about the Bartolo Colon deal and the Aj Pierzynski deal. Go to other team's message boards, and on EVERY one of them you will find their fans demanding their GM make a deal similar to those two. If the fans know it, you don't think the GM's recognize that? If anything, those two deals and the attention they have continually received has made it far less likely that another will occur. No GM wants to make a deal like that and get fleeced. And if we haven't seen the evidence of that in the last two years, I don't know what we've seen.

 

As for Liriano, the key to his return is that the very pitch that made him so dominant is the same that caused his injury. That slider creates enormous stress on his elbow and obviously caused him to miss this entire season. When he returns, will he attempt to throw it? Will he throw a variation of it? Will he reinjure his arm again and again and again like Kerry Wood? To say he can return to duplicate or even at all closely replicate his 06' success is extraordinarily speculative at the very least.

 

In terms of MichaelAngelosMonkey, he was not trying to claim that the White Sox have not been as lucky as any other team. What he was claiming is that you cannot praise the Twin's success as a skill, and at the same time chalk up all the White Sox' success as luck. Both have received plenty of luck within the last several years.

 

What the Twins have done well over the past several years is put together amazing bullpens and tailor their ballclub to the Humphreydome. They have not produced an amazing number of solid homegrown position players, their success developing starting pitchers has been overstated, and they have continually been exposed in the postseason. Certainly their sustained success in this decade has been admirable, but basically, if things hold true this season, they will have won 1 postseason series while having the best starting pitcher in baseball and one of the best bullpens in baseball for the last 4-5 years. It's great and all that they have won division titles with a lower payroll, but let's not confuse their run with the Oakland A's of the early seventies.

 

I think it's fairly clear that there are several issues within the White Sox organization which need to be addressed. One is certainly international scouting. Another is their refusal to wholeheartedly consider players represented by Scott Boras. Another is their philosophy of drafting low-risk pitchers. However, anyone who has watched baseball for any sustained period of time realizes how quickly things can change, especially when there is a little money that can be spent. Certainly this organization does some things better than they do others; however, I must say I have faith in their overall ability to position this team in a favorable spot for the next several years, despite how putrid the major league team has looked throughout this season.

Thanks for the support, iamshack. I think the one thing we can all agree on is we are White Sox fans and want the team better. I fully support the position that our farm system has been disappointing. I remember in 2000 when we were voted farm system of the year by BA. And who came out of that mix? In fact here's a decade worth of our picks that made some impact in the majors...and I don't include long relievers or back up infielders. A team gets FIFTY picks a year and if you figure a team needs 20 real good players to compete...and a players career is five years. Well you ought to be adding four real good players a year:

1992: Crap

1993: PLacido Polanco

1994: ERic Gagne

1995: crap

1996: Crede/Chad Bradford

1997: Jeff Weaver

1998: Kip Wells, Aaron Rowand, Nate Robertson, Josh Fogg, Mark Buehrle

1999: crap

2000: crap

2001: Chris Young

There's no all star team in THAT mix. 500 picks and only Buehrle, Rowand and Crede made their impact with the Sox. But let's look at a team everyone said was a super drafting team...the Expos:

92: Jose Vidro

93: Brad Fulmer

94: Geoff Blum

95: Michael Barret

96: Milton Bradly

97-crap

98-Brad Wilkerson

99--Brandon Phillips

00--Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Jason Bay

01--crap

02--crap

That's a lot closer to an allstar team...but it's only 10 players.

And the Yankees who can afford the best of everything:

92: Derek Jeter

93: Chad Moeller

95: Mike Lowell, Casey Blake

96: Eric Milton, Nick Johnson

97: Mark Prior.

So...that basically NOTHING since 1992.

And the Twins?

92-nothing

93: Torri Hunter, Jason Varitek, Javier Valentin, Alex Cora, Danny Kolb

94: Todd Walker, AJ, David Dellucci, Corey Koskie

95: Mark Redmon, Doug Mientkiewitz

96: Travis Lee, Jacques Jones, Chad Moller, Mike Lamb, Josh bard

97: Michael Cuddyer, Matt Lecroy, Nick Punto

98:crap

99:Morneau

00: crap

01: Mauer

02: Crap

The twins did something right in the mid 90's. That's 19 pretty good major leaguers in a 5 year span. That's your core of grinderstads. But then what happened?

 

It's clear you need to concurrently take many paths to build a championship team. Drafting better is important...but it's not the only thing. One could certainly argue that the sole pick of Jeter has served the yankees as well as all the Expos draft picks. So the Sox need to be smart developing Latin American talent. Going after Japanese players. Trading. Free agent bargains (Dye) and big time free agents. Kenny's approach brought one world series championship. Let's see if he's smart enough to cobble together another.

 

 

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Great post.

 

I cannot stand this nonsense about the Bartolo Colon deal and the Aj Pierzynski deal. Go to other team's message boards, and on EVERY one of them you will find their fans demanding their GM make a deal similar to those two. If the fans know it, you don't think the GM's recognize that? If anything, those two deals and the attention they have continually received has made it far less likely that another will occur. No GM wants to make a deal like that and get fleeced. And if we haven't seen the evidence of that in the last two years, I don't know what we've seen.

 

As for Liriano, the key to his return is that the very pitch that made him so dominant is the same that caused his injury. That slider creates enormous stress on his elbow and obviously caused him to miss this entire season. When he returns, will he attempt to throw it? Will he throw a variation of it? Will he reinjure his arm again and again and again like Kerry Wood? To say he can return to duplicate or even at all closely replicate his 06' success is extraordinarily speculative at the very least.

 

In terms of MichaelAngelosMonkey, he was not trying to claim that the White Sox have not been as lucky as any other team. What he was claiming is that you cannot praise the Twin's success as a skill, and at the same time chalk up all the White Sox' success as luck. Both have received plenty of luck within the last several years.

 

What the Twins have done well over the past several years is put together amazing bullpens and tailor their ballclub to the Humphreydome. They have not produced an amazing number of solid homegrown position players, their success developing starting pitchers has been overstated, and they have continually been exposed in the postseason. Certainly their sustained success in this decade has been admirable, but basically, if things hold true this season, they will have won 1 postseason series while having the best starting pitcher in baseball and one of the best bullpens in baseball for the last 4-5 years. It's great and all that they have won division titles with a lower payroll, but let's not confuse their run with the Oakland A's of the early seventies.

 

I think it's fairly clear that there are several issues within the White Sox organization which need to be addressed. One is certainly international scouting. Another is their refusal to wholeheartedly consider players represented by Scott Boras. Another is their philosophy of drafting low-risk pitchers. However, anyone who has watched baseball for any sustained period of time realizes how quickly things can change, especially when there is a little money that can be spent. Certainly this organization does some things better than they do others; however, I must say I have faith in their overall ability to position this team in a favorable spot for the next several years, despite how putrid the major league team has looked throughout this season.

 

I agree with the first part, those kind of deals are extremely rare. A lot of things have to go right to get that kind of fleecing. Even if your timing is right and you successfully find the desperate GM that'll overpay, you never know if the guys will develop like you hope.

 

The Twins have produced enough homegrown players to stay competitive despite a mid-range payroll at best. There are 4 All-stars on their roster that came up through their system and several other productive players. That's pretty impressive. While you'd like to see more playoff success if you're a Twins fan, don't you think the payroll had an effect on that? They can't amass the kind of depth that a lot of other teams can because of it. Just look at some of their off-season signings. They're basically forced to add guys like Tony Batista and Sidney Ponson because of their restraints. If things work out on signings like that you get a reasonably productive major leaguer like Shannon Stewart or Luis Castillo. Even someone like a Jermaine Dye is often more than they can afford because Carl Pohland is so cheap. Right now they have 11 players making over $1 mil on their roster and 3 making over $5 mil. The Sox by comparison have 14 and 8 respectively. That makes it kind of hard to hang with some of the other top teams, especially when you often run into a team like the Red Sox or Yankees in the playoffs that can spend twice as much as you can.

[iamshack]

I agree with the first part, those kind of deals are extremely rare. A lot of things have to go right to get that kind of fleecing. Even if your timing is right and you successfully find the desperate GM that'll overpay, you never know if the guys will develop like you hope.

 

The Twins have produced enough homegrown players to stay competitive despite a mid-range payroll at best. There are 4 All-stars on their roster that came up through their system and several other productive players. That's pretty impressive. While you'd like to see more playoff success if you're a Twins fan, don't you think the payroll had an effect on that? They can't amass the kind of depth that a lot of other teams can because of it. Just look at some of their off-season signings. They're basically forced to add guys like Tony Batista and Sidney Ponson because of their restraints. If things work out on signings like that you get a reasonably productive major leaguer like Shannon Stewart or Luis Castillo. Even someone like a Jermaine Dye is often more than they can afford because Carl Pohland is so cheap. Right now they have 11 players making over $1 mil on their roster and 3 making over $5 mil. The Sox by comparison have 14 and 8 respectively. That makes it kind of hard to hang with some of the other top teams, especially when you often run into a team like the Red Sox or Yankees in the playoffs that can spend twice as much as you can.

 

Well, I give them absolutely ZERO credit for Mauer. They had the first pick, he's a Minnesota native, and they didn't have the money to sign Prior. Basically, they had no other choice but him.

 

As for their payroll and it's affect on their playoff chances, they have never really fortified their team going down the stretch. I understand that their payroll affects that possibility, but I think they have had opportunities to go for it a few times and Terry Ryan has never had the sack. That was evidenced by Santana's frustration at the deadline this season.

 

Eventually, when you don't win playoff series, winning division titles becomes a little hollow. It's never a bad thing, obviously. But when the goal continues to be championships, at least from a competitive standpoint (as opposed to a purely business standpoint), things begin to get a little bit stale.

 

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Well, I give them absolutely ZERO credit for Mauer. They had the first pick, he's a Minnesota native, and they didn't have the money to sign Prior. Basically, they had no other choice but him.

 

As for their payroll and it's affect on their playoff chances, they have never really fortified their team going down the stretch. I understand that their payroll affects that possibility, but I think they have had opportunities to go for it a few times and Terry Ryan has never had the sack. That was evidenced by Santana's frustration at the deadline this season.

 

Eventually, when you don't win playoff series, winning division titles becomes a little hollow. It's never a bad thing, obviously. But when the goal continues to be championships, at least from a competitive standpoint (as opposed to a purely business standpoint), things begin to get a little bit stale.

 

Well, the payroll SEVERELY limits your options at the deadline. Teams don't exactly deal cheap options that can help your major league team at that time. Basically everyone available that can help you is going to be a high-priced veteran that is going to be a free agent in the near future. Since the chances of re-signing those guys are slim and most of the time their salary is already pretty high, they simply can't afford to go after those guys. Pohland has NEVER shown the willingness to pay to add someone that could potentially put them over the top like a Freddy Garcia or Carlos Lee.

[iamshack]

Well, the payroll SEVERELY limits your options at the deadline. Teams don't exactly deal cheap options that can help your major league team at that time. Basically everyone available that can help you is going to be a high-priced veteran that is going to be a free agent in the near future. Since the chances of re-signing those guys are slim and most of the time their salary is already pretty high, they simply can't afford to go after those guys. Pohland has NEVER shown the willingness to pay to add someone that could potentially put them over the top like a Freddy Garcia or Carlos Lee.

 

Well, I agree and I disagree. I agree that they often would not be able to resign the players available at the deadline most years. But they certainly could afford to rent a guy. They certainly have the farm system to make such acquisitions. Take Carlos Lee last season. Or Jermaine Dye this season. Or Alfonso Soriano last season. Sure, it might hurt the depth of their system a bit short term, but if it is so strong in the first place, they should be able to take that risk every now and again. Perhaps Lee or Soriano would have put them over the top last season. Or Dye this season (they are still in this thing). They could certainly afford to pay for two months of those players' salaries and then take the picks when those players walk and sustain their system a bit that way (especially if they draft as well as many around here think).

[ZoomSlowik]

Well, I agree and I disagree. I agree that they often would not be able to resign the players available at the deadline most years. But they certainly could afford to rent a guy. They certainly have the farm system to make such acquisitions. Take Carlos Lee last season. Or Jermaine Dye this season. Or Alfonso Soriano last season. Sure, it might hurt the depth of their system a bit short term, but if it is so strong in the first place, they should be able to take that risk every now and again. Perhaps Lee or Soriano would have put them over the top last season. Or Dye this season (they are still in this thing). They could certainly afford to pay for two months of those players' salaries and then take the picks when those players walk and sustain their system a bit that way (especially if they draft as well as many around here think).

 

Lee might have worked, I don't remember the exact price, but I don't think it was too steep. However, for Soriano it probably would have cost them Garza and another piece or two, that's an awfully steep price to pay for 2 months. Plus with Dye this year there are still two teams ahead of them and he'd had a pretty rough season before the last couple of weeks before the deadline.

 

I have no doubt they could afford it on paper, but if Pohland doesn't want to add the few extra mil to the payroll there's not a whole lot Ryan can do about it.

 

[iamshack]

Lee might have worked, I don't remember the exact price, but I don't think it was too steep. However, for Soriano it probably would have cost them Garza and another piece or two, that's an awfully steep price to pay for 2 months. Plus with Dye this year there are still two teams ahead of them and he'd had a pretty rough season before the last couple of weeks before the deadline.

 

I have no doubt they could afford it on paper, but if Pohland doesn't want to add the few extra mil to the payroll there's not a whole lot Ryan can do about it.

 

Sure he can. He can save the money until the deadline instead of bringing in the Sidney Ponson's of the world at the beginning of the season and then releasing them.

 

And I don't think it is so much a case of Pohlad as it is Ryan refusing to take a gamble by relinquishing a prospect or two.

[ZoomSlowik]

Sure he can. He can save the money until the deadline instead of bringing in the Sidney Ponson's of the world at the beginning of the season and then releasing them.

 

And I don't think it is so much a case of Pohlad as it is Ryan refusing to take a gamble by relinquishing a prospect or two.

 

Ponson's salary was $1 mil for the entire year, and juding by the language in his contract he only gets that while he was on the major league roster (which didn't last long). Lee and Soriano still would have been due about $2.5 mil for the rest of the year when they got them besides the talent, which is 3 or 4 players for the Twins.

 

Considering this is the highest I've seen their payroll in a long time and all of the people getting real money now were home-grown/acquired cheap, I'd lean more towards Pohland. If they actually manage to keep Hunter and/or Satana I'll change my mind, but he's notoriously one of the cheapest owners in the league. I'm sure Ryan contributes, but that still wouldn't explain the total lack of decent free agent signings.

[iamshack]

Ponson's salary was $1 mil for the entire year, and juding by the language in his contract he only gets that while he was on the major league roster (which didn't last long). Lee and Soriano still would have been due about $2.5 mil for the rest of the year when they got them besides the talent, which is 3 or 4 players for the Twins.

 

Considering this is the highest I've seen their payroll in a long time and all of the people getting real money now were home-grown/acquired cheap, I'd lean more towards Pohland. If they actually manage to keep Hunter and/or Satana I'll change my mind, but he's notoriously one of the cheapest owners in the league. I'm sure Ryan contributes, but that still wouldn't explain the total lack of decent free agent signings.

 

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I absolutely agree with you that Pohlad is a cheap bastard. I actually caddied for him about 15 years ago at Butler National in Oakbrook. He was cheap then, I am sure he is cheap now. However, I highly doubt that the 2.5 million or whatever it would cost to fortify the team at the deadline was his doing. I think it has a lot more to do with the Twins falling in love with their prospects ala Bill Stoneman.

 

But let's face it- outside of the obvious goal of fielding a competitive team year in and year out, the overwhelming goal is winning a World Series championship. And the Twins don't do what it takes (obviously, within their power) to give them the best shot at succeeding in the playoffs. I'm not advocating they trade for ARod or Dontrelle Willis or something. But they certainly could add a bat with pop and/or a few bench players at the deadline every now and again to give themselves a better chance. Their payroll precludes them from signing premier free agents. It does not preclude them from adding some key pieces at the deadline.