Mike Myers Signs/ Andy Gonzalez optioned to Charlotte

[29andPoplar]

All three left handers in the bullpen have had their bad moments, Thronton, Logan, and Myers. On the surface many of the stats for their respective 2007 seasons are remarkably similar, although Thornton K's more guys.

Of course many of these stats don't tell the whole story as I'm sure a stat-friendly poster would tell me.

 

Cooper and Guillen seem to like the idea of three LH's in the bullpen. There are some obvious questions,

 

- Can you carry three and what are their roles

 

- Can you find another LH better in trade than these three guys at their cost, which frankly is minimal

 

- Do you rely on any of the three to get right handed hitters out, you'd have to if you carry three LH's

 

Let's assume for a moment they carry three LH's in the bullpen and let's further assume they feel each of these three guys will have a better '08 than '07. That's three bullpen jobs, you'd have to say Jenks has a job and I would say Wasserman has a leg up.

 

Five guys in the pen: Jenks, Thornton, Logan, Wasserman, Myers. That gives you room for two more righthanders. One needs to be a 7th/8th inning guy and one would probably need to have long relief capability. To me their biggest bullpen need is the MacDougal role, he will not be back as they are totally frustrated with him.

 

I would not be surprised if they keep all of Thornton, Logan, and Myers. But I am also mindful there will be trades and the White Sox have holes. To get somethng you have to give something, and it is a certainty other clubs will ask about both Thornton and Logan.

 

On this Myers thing, I believe they will pick up his option because it gives them flexibility. Yes he has been mediocre but he has a long track record of being a serviceable reliever. If they are forced to trade Thornton or Logan to get something they really want/need, Myers at $1.1M is a reasonable cost stop gap type guy until they can find or develop something else. No it is not ideal but this is what I think they will do.

[santo=dorf]

The Tribune makes it sound like the Sox want to bring Myers back for next year. This is going to be a long offseason.

Mike Myers' ERA has grown from 2.66 to 4.14 in the six weeks he has been with the White Sox, but the White Sox will likely bring him back next season.

 

"I'm not looking at ERA," pitching coach Don Cooper said. "Every club would like to have three lefties in the bullpen. We have that ability to have three lefties every day, at least two, especially in our division where we have a lot of good-hitting lefties and guys who switch-hit."

 

notice how Cooper said absolutley nothing about how well our left handers actually pitch against those left handed batters.

 

They may give up lots of inherited runs, but damnit, at least they're doing it left handed.

[CWSGuy406]

Unbelievable... are the Sox trying to best the Podsednik signing from last year?

 

Logan should be guaranteed the LOOGY spot for next season -- he held lefties to a .606 OPS and even though righties torched him, I'd expect his numbers vs them to improve.

 

Why are we still having these conversations about this lefty-righty bulls***? You have your LOOGY for next year in Logan, you have your ROOGY in Wassermann. You have your closer. Fill the rest of the bullpen with guys who can get outs -- hell, I don't care if they throw underhand.

[Rowand44]

Unbelievable... are the Sox trying to best the Podsednik signing from last year?

 

Logan should be guaranteed the LOOGY spot for next season -- he held lefties to a .606 OPS and even though righties torched him, I'd expect his numbers vs them to improve.

 

Why are we still having these conversations about this lefty-righty bulls***? You have your LOOGY for next year in Logan, you have your ROOGY in Wassermann. You have your closer. Fill the rest of the bullpen with guys who can get outs -- hell, I don't care if they throw underhand.

Bingo. Wasserman+Logan=one fantastic pitcher. Not that hard really.

[29andPoplar]

Whatever they do with this bullpen, they will need a backup plan. If they keep 3 LH or not, whatever. No more Ryan Bukvich's or Brett Prinz's and so on as a backup plan.

 

They miscalculated on Masset, Aardsma, Sisco, and I would also say MacDougal. Aardsma and MacDougal are what I would call head cases, they are afraid to throw strikes. Sisco is a long term project and a big maybe. Masset has talent but I think they will cut the cord on him, he would look good on an NL team as a 5th starter.

 

It is very easy for me to sit here and say they better have a backup plan but it's much harder to do. This is where scouting and your minor league system comes in. They need a surprise guy basically every year, like Wasserman. People are penciling him into the bullpen when, in March, only the hardcore knew his name. Which also goes to show the unpredictability of bullpen arms. Who is to say, for example, that Wasserman will be good once the league gets a good look at him. I like him, but I believe it's a legitimate question.

 

Any GM can generally land "project" pitchers from other teams, like at least 3 of the 4 guys mentioned. But they simply can not go 0 for 4 and have to start over every winter.

 

By the way, the common denominator on all six names mentioned in this post? Trouble throwing strikes.

[Flash Tizzle]

All three left handers in the bullpen have had their bad moments, Thronton, Logan, and Myers. On the surface many of the stats for their respective 2007 seasons are remarkably similar, although Thornton K's more guys.

Of course many of these stats don't tell the whole story as I'm sure a stat-friendly poster would tell me.

 

Actually, no one would tell you statistics don't tell the whole story in relation to Thornton and Myers. Logan, at least, is capable of retiring lefthanders. His role has been defined this season. Not many statistical measures available support Thornton, much less Myers, as viable options. One advantage Thornton has is his velocity (which has decreased from last season) and an extended contract which may make dealing him difficult.

 

On this Myers thing, I believe they will pick up his option because it gives them flexibility. Yes he has been mediocre but he has a long track record of being a serviceable reliever. If they are forced to trade Thornton or Logan to get something they really want/need, Myers at $1.1M is a reasonable cost stop gap type guy until they can find or develop something else. No it is not ideal but this is what I think they will do.

 

It will be an embarrassment if Myers is extended. Flexibility should not be the issue, here. I'm tired of acquiring stop-gap solutions to compensate for the inability of this organization to develop replacement level players. Myers is somehow the solution because he has a proven track record? Why isn't it just as likely that maybe his decline has begun?

 

I'm more willing to accept that what we've seen from Myers in a White Sox uniform is all there is, then devoting over a million dollars for a mere 'stopgap.' And by stopgap, of course, you're suggesting that production isn't key; rather, he's a warm body throwing with his left arm.

 

This decision is more the reason why this organizaiton is no where near competing. Myers as a legitimate option out of the bullpen? A bullpen that still needs its share of upgrades, lol.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Flash Tizzle]

Whatever they do with this bullpen, they will need a backup plan. If they keep 3 LH or not, whatever. No more Ryan Bukvich's or Brett Prinz's and so on as a backup plan.

 

They miscalculated on Masset, Aardsma, Sisco, and I would also say MacDougal. Aardsma and MacDougal are what I would call head cases, they are afraid to throw strikes. Sisco is a long term project and a big maybe. Masset has talent but I think they will cut the cord on him, he would look good on an NL team as a 5th starter.

 

This I agree with. Particularly how Williams was proven wrong with every offseason acquisition in the bullpen.

 

What I would like to see is several of our in-house options to be given extra opportunities. Whether that's Day, Perez, Vasquez; anything which limits the need of Williams to trade/sign for more bullpen arms.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[CWSGuy406]

It is very easy for me to sit here and say they better have a backup plan but it's much harder to do. This is where scouting and your minor league system comes in. They need a surprise guy basically every year, like Wasserman. People are penciling him into the bullpen when, in March, only the hardcore knew his name. Which also goes to show the unpredictability of bullpen arms. Who is to say, for example, that Wasserman will be good once the league gets a good look at him. I like him, but I believe it's a legitimate question.

 

I'm not questioning what you said here, 29th, but why can't that guy be Oneli Perez (in 2008)? His numbers over the past two years at Kannapolis, Winston Salem and Birmingham -- ~153 IP, 178 (!) Ks, 106 (!!) hits, 38 BBs. That's a 4.68/1 K/BB ratio and a WHIP of .81.

 

I know there's more to putting together a bullpen than "luck" -- although I understand sometimes I probably make it sound like that -- but I really hope Kenny doesn't do a heckuva lot different than he did last season. For all of these guys this year to suck -- Aardsma, Sisco, Masset, MacDougal, Thorton (to a lesser extent) -- that's a lot of bad luck right there.

 

As I said before, you have (or should have) three spots currently locked up -- Jenks, Logan and Wassermann. If Thorton and MacDougal aren't traded, I think both have good enough track records to count on a reasonable bounce-back in 2008. That leaves you two more spots -- I'd give one of those spots to a guy who can go multiple innings -- Broadway? Haeger? Perez? That leaves one more spot which I'd fill with a guy who stands out in Spring Training or with a guy you bring in -- if I was GM, I'd look for Shingo Takatsu #2.

Edited September 29, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[Rowand44]

I'd look for Shingo Takatsu #2.

I say get the real Shingo, put him in for his entrance and then just have him fake an injury every time.

 

I miss that entrance.

[29andPoplar]

I'm not questioning what you said here, 29th, but why can't that guy be Oneli Perez (in 2008)? His numbers over the past two years at Kannapolis, Winston Salem and Birmingham -- ~153 IP, 178 (!) Ks, 106 (!!) hits, 38 BBs. That's a 4.68/1 K/BB ratio and a WHIP of .81.

 

I know there's more to putting together a bullpen than "luck" -- although I understand sometimes I probably make it sound like that -- but I really hope Kenny doesn't do a heckuva lot different than he did last season. For all of these guys this year to suck -- Aardsma, Sisco, Masset, MacDougal, Thorton (to a lesser extent) -- that's a lot of bad luck right there.

 

As I said before, you have (or should have) three spots currently locked up -- Jenks, Logan and Wassermann. If Thorton and MacDougal aren't traded, I think both have good enough track records to count on a reasonable bounce-back in 2008. That leaves you two more spots -- I'd give one of those spots to a guy who can go multiple innings -- Broadway? Haeger? Perez? That leaves one more spot which I'd fill with a guy who stands out in Spring Training or with a guy you bring in -- if I was GM, I'd look for Shingo Takatsu #2.

 

It certainly could be Oneli Perez, as you suggest. Sox brass is in no position to be picky and it comes down to what was said in this thread, I believe by you ... all that matters is guys who can get outs. There is no reason he shouldn't get an opportunity if he is kept on the 40 man. His stuff is pedestrian but his stats show he knows how to pitch. Whether that translates to a major league reliever, the only way to find out is to give him a chance.

[29andPoplar]

What I would like to see is several of our in-house options to be given extra opportunities. Whether that's Day, Perez, Vasquez; anything which limits the need of Williams to trade/sign for more bullpen arms.

 

And then what happens when these guys are bad? Rock and hard place, again.

 

If they are good, that's fine. But just as you said with Myers, it could easily be that Dewon Day and Oneli Perez and Carlos Vasquez are "never were's".

 

And by the way, if some of the bullpen guys drove you nuts with all the walks this year, Carlos Vasquez was the same way in AAA. And hitters up here don't get themselves out as much as in AAA.

 

If you want to win, you need to have a backup plan consisting of quality players. Maybe Day, Perez, etc. are in fact quality players. They're on the 40 man which says something. Day did have a great opportunity though and he wasn't good.

[29andPoplar]

And by stopgap, of course, you're suggesting that production isn't key; rather, he's a warm body throwing with his left arm.

 

Actually no, that was not what I was suggesting at all. I will suggest you're putting words in my mouth and I'd be right.

 

Myers will be 39 years old next year. Math alone suggests he won't be around long term. That is what I meant by stop gap, until such time as they can develop someone, sign, trade, whatever.

 

The issue is, can he be effective enough to warrant what they'd pay him, which in today's day and age is nominal for a baseball pitcher. I am not arguing he will or won't, I am simply saying I believe the White Sox will pick up his option because they will feel it gives them flexibility. Take your argument(s) up with Kenny Williams. Maybe write him a letter? Oh never mind, I think we've covered that already haven't we.

[Flash Tizzle]

Actually no, that was not what I was suggesting at all. I will suggest you're putting words in my mouth and I'd be right.

 

Myers will be 39 years old next year. Math alone suggests he won't be around long term. That is what I meant by stop gap, until such time as they can develop someone, sign, trade, whatever.

 

The issue is, can he be effective enough to warrant what they'd pay him, which in today's day and age is nominal for a baseball pitcher. I am not arguing he will or won't, I am simply saying I believe the White Sox will pick up his option because they will feel it gives them flexibility. Take your argument(s) up with Kenny Williams. Maybe write him a letter? Oh never mind, I think we've covered that already haven't we.

Myers as a stop gap solution and, say, Dye are two entirely different variations of the term.

 

Myers isn't the best option (and I believe this), yet he'll be given an opportunity because of his past success against lefthanders. Dye was signed an extension because there are, without question, no better options for the production he'll provide. Give me all the outfielders within the system and I guarantee none would outproduce Dye next season -- even during his injury stinct. Yet, do the same for Myers and I would venture to bet several come ahead.

 

This is what I consider wasting money. Even if it's for a little over a million, the difference between someone getting paid the minimum and Myers' salary could be used for better purposes (ie, draft).

 

I don't know why you continue this "write a letter!1!!" campaign. The next time I ever hear of management expressing their true feelings in a letter for everyone to read will be the first time.

 

Flash Tizzle: "Mr. Williams, why would you consider extending Myers when there are several interesting options in the minors?"

 

Williams: "Thank you devoted fan for your concern. It's my belief that the 2008 White Sox will once again rise atop the American League Central in route to another World Series championship. Make sure to call a friendly White Sox ticket representative today to pre-order your season tickets, group tickets, or various other ticket plans to fit your schedule (Letter continues without addressing question)...

Edited September 30, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[3E8]

Williams: "Thank you devoted fan for your concern. It's my belief that the 2008 White Sox will once again rise atop the American League Central in route to another World Series championship. Make sure to call a friendly White Sox ticket representative today to pre-order your season tickets, group tickets, or various other ticket plans to fit your schedule (Letter continues without addressing question)...

Dear Mr. Tizzle,

 

Show your family and friends how 'Flashy' you are by engraving yourself in a part of our Commemerative Legacy Brick Program

[29andPoplar]

I don't know why you continue this "write a letter!1!!" campaign. The next time I ever hear of management expressing their true feelings in a letter for everyone to read will be the first time.

 

Flash Tizzle: "Mr. Williams, why would you consider extending Myers when there are several interesting options in the minors?"

 

Williams: "Thank you devoted fan for your concern. It's my belief that the 2008 White Sox will once again rise atop the American League Central in route to another World Series championship. Make sure to call a friendly White Sox ticket representative today to pre-order your season tickets, group tickets, or various other ticket plans to fit your schedule (Letter continues without addressing question)...

 

You might be surprised. I have talked to him and many others in the organization and have gotten thoughtful, reasoned responses. Not that I always agree with what I'm told, and they very well may be wrong. I expressed real concern about Aardsma this spring because I heard from a media guy he was gun shy and I was told by a pitching coach type (not Cooper) they felt he'd turned a corner and felt he was more confident and ready to be more aggressive and attack the strike zone. Obviously, they were wrong.

 

But at least I got an answer, instead of saying the same old things on a message board, believing the brass will magically read pronouncements and decide a SoxTalk poster is a genious.

[NorthSideSox72]

I've been more a defender of KW here than most. But I'll tell you right now, for every logical reason I can see (ability, age, salary, chemistry, history), bringing Myers back makes NO sense. He does zero good in the pen. He is a 39 year old LOOGY who allows lefthanders to hit .288 against him. Year before that? .257. These are not the mark of a good LOOGY - they are the mark of a pitcher losing his stuff.

 

Please. No.

 

This is not even to mention that, believe it or not, the bullpen as it stands now other than Myers has four guys who look pretty darn good for 2008 (Jenks, Logan, Wassermann, Thornton). And with the talent they have, some of those hard-throwing relievers will have figured it out this season and this fall (Aardsma, MacD, Day, O Perez, Vasquez), and if you need just one or two, its OK to take the chance.

 

I'd rather take the 4 solids I mentioned, find one decent setup guy on the market for via trade (who isn't 39 and who actually gets guys out), and throw in one of the fireball crew.

 

[fathom]

He better not be back. No excuses....we don't need 3 specialists on this team.

[Soxfest]

Myers does NOT help this team at all in 2008............. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!