To contend next year...

[29andPoplar]

Nah, I've only written off 2008.

 

I just know, from looking at our system right now,

 

I recall a post from you saying 2008 and 2009 would be bad which is why I mentioned it, but it really doesn't matter. The second statement, "right now" are the key words in your post. Things change, it's baseball. Players will come and go. Most if not all teams fortunes will go up and down. So many things happen. They can be criticized for this year and rightfully. However this is the first really bad year in quite a while. People don't want to hear it but there needs to be a bigger picture view.

 

They have said constantly and I do mean constantly they plan to compete in 2008 and when they are rebuilding they will let us know. I have no reason to disbelieve what they're saying. They disagree with you who thinks rebuilding should come right now, and you will just have to get over that as many have pointed out to you. No offense but you will change nothing by posting it again and again on the boards, believe me the brass does not rely on this board for their strategy planning and anyone who says they know more than baseball lifers isn't thinking clearly. It is an up and down game from year to year. Baseball history shows this over and over.

 

As a fan, what you want to hear is "we are going to try to win". From my view anyways. What I don't want to hear is "the kids can play but we will be awful for a few years". I get a kick out of people on this and other boards who are trying to shoehorn prospects into the 2008 starting lineup when those prospects haven't even mastered AAA, among other issues.

 

You can expect some significant changes and you are not just hearing that from Williams and Guillen but you are also hearing it publically from Buehrle and Dye. Believe me they have more money than you think for next year and I will be just as annoyed as you if I don't see changes to scouting and aggressive pursuit of the right types of players and a hunger on this team.

[29andPoplar]

Another is our starting rotation -- how will Buehrle, Garland (if he's still around), Vazquez hold up? At which point, none would be classified as being in their prime.

 

I should have left it at that but this also needs to be addressed. Buehrle will be 30 in 2009, Garland 29 and Vazquez 32 going on 33. 30, 29, and 32 aren't prime?

[whitesoxfan101]

This division isn't as good as people think. We won't make the playoffs next year IMO, but this divisions greatness is a myth that will be exposed in 2008.

[Flash Tizzle]

I should have left it at that but this also needs to be addressed. Buehrle will be 30 in 2009, Garland 29 and Vazquez 32 going on 33. 30, 29, and 32 aren't prime?

I'm not looking at age, alone. Considering the amount of innings on their arms and the time all three have been in the majors, I'd say no.

[RME JICO]

The Sox need some impact players and will need to pay for them. At a minimum, they need an OF, SS, and one dependable bullpen arm. If they get those (unlikely) they have a decent chance.

 

However, if Pods or Erstad remain on the 2008 roster, this team will be lucky to break .500.

[Wanne]

I'm just sick of every other goddamn team in the majors at some point brings some young stud into there system that people go..."wow...he's a pretty good young talent". When is the last time this team brought somebody up...anybody...pitcher, outfielder...anybody who was actually really good. Sure...I'm very happy with Fields and Danks and all...but where the hell are our Ryan Howards, Ryan Brauns...somebody that just lights it up. I honestly wish they would blow this team up...but KW won't. It would be him admitting he failed.

[fathom]

I'm just sick of every other goddamn team in the majors at some point brings some young stud into there system that people go..."wow...he's a pretty good young talent". When is the last time this team brought somebody up...anybody...pitcher, outfielder...anybody who was actually really good. Sure...I'm very happy with Fields and Danks and all...but where the hell are our Ryan Howards, Ryan Brauns...somebody that just lights it up. I honestly wish they would blow this team up...but KW won't. It would be him admitting he failed.

 

Braun and Howard are HOF caliber players. Fields is a very talented young player.

[29andPoplar]

Sorry about this, I was making a post about Alan Regier (Sox farm director guy) in another thread, linking him with Schuerholz and Bill Lajoie and also BTW the Red Sox org. and the thread got archived I think, so anyways:

 

http://heraldargus.com/hanews/archives/ha/...y.php?id=383098

[Flash Tizzle]

I'm just sick of every other goddamn team in the majors at some point brings some young stud into there system that people go..."wow...he's a pretty good young talent". When is the last time this team brought somebody up...anybody...pitcher, outfielder...anybody who was actually really good. Sure...I'm very happy with Fields and Danks and all...but where the hell are our Ryan Howards, Ryan Brauns...somebody that just lights it up. I honestly wish they would blow this team up...but KW won't. It would be him admitting he failed.

It's to the point now where I'm convinced, by nothing other than blind optimism, that the White Sox will have a Top 5 prospect emerge from within their system by 2010. You just can't fail this many times with first round selections, international free agents, and value from a trade without ONE person emerging. Right? Right?!

 

Hopefully DLS will be that person.

[Gregory Pratt]

Sorry about this, I was making a post about Alan Regier (Sox farm director guy) in another thread, linking him with Schuerholz and Bill Lajoie and also BTW the Red Sox org. and the thread got archived I think, so anyways:

 

http://heraldargus.com/hanews/archives/ha/...y.php?id=383098

 

Hi. You should've PMed me.

 

Regier once worked in the Atlanta organization and favors a more conservative approach to development that could help salvage some disappointing careers.

 

Umm, I'm not sure where that says that he was one of Schuerholz's closest guys or a particularly important person in Atlanta, or that that necessarily means much.

[kwolf68]

 

To contend next year we'll need to be moved to the NL Central.

[Flash Tizzle]

Say what you want about Beane, but would I be the only one relieved if I heard Williams connected with these quotes? Just a sentence that atleast acknowledges the possibility of rebuilding.

 

“Will we do something radically different, like maybe start running the Wishbone? No, I don’t think so,” Beane said when asked if the A’s need to change things up in 2008.

 

“What we’ll do is what we always do. If we see the need to change or adjust anything, we’ll do that. Any template you have is never universal for the rest of your career. It just can’t be.

 

“The longer you do this job, you end up finding more about what you don’t know. If you think everything you do is infallible, you’re a fool.”

 

..."But there will be a time when we rebuild. And if you do it when everybody thinks and says it’s time for you to rebuild, you’re too late. So there will be a time when we take a full step back and do it the right way.”

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/sportsheadlines/ci_6663217

Edited August 20, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[BearSox]

I don't think we should be asking where our Braun is, as he was a top 5 pick or something like that. But where is our Ryan Howard, Matt Kemp, Russell Martin, etc.

 

Hopefully we won't be asking that question next season when we hopefully draft someone like Pedro Alveras.

[29andPoplar]

Umm, I'm not sure where that says that he was one of Schuerholz's closest guys or a particularly important person in Atlanta, or that that necessarily means much.

 

Articles and books don't tell everything. The point is, philosophically he picked up a lot from Schuerholz, he is highly respected and has made some positive changes already. In a brief conversation I had with him this spring he credited Schuerholz as being a big influence.

 

Many of these baseball people are more interconnected than any article or book would indicate.

[CanOfCorn]

As for the arms...Buehrle and Garland don't have enough torque on their pitches to screw up their arms. Vazquez is the only one that MAY...I repeat...MAY have arm trouble, but probably not. We have a good amount of pitchers that are serviceable coming through the system. But remember, Buehrle is our ace...and he was a 38th round pick.

 

Look, there are going to be your low pick, high reward guys like Buehrle and Piazza (51st round pick, IIRC). And you are going to have your busts...Gavin Floyd anyone? Or the Mets pitchers of the early 90's, Wilson, Van Poppel and I think Isringhausen.

 

Like Poplar said, baseball is up and down...the Tigers just a few years ago, were the absolute worst team in baseball...BY FAR. Now, not so much.

 

The White Sox need to do something about the instruction and the scouting, but I agree with Poplar that things can change, in a hurry. And I'd much rather have my team say, "We are going to retool and do our best to win NOW," than, "We are going to rebuild, enjoy these kids playing, but we are going to suck for a few years."

 

 

[Rowand44]

Fill the 43 holes we have in the lineup and add a reliever or two. The bullpen at least somewhat is starting to look better so hopefully that shouldn't be as big of a hole, but you just never know with relievers.

[Gregory Pratt]

Articles and books don't tell everything. The point is, philosophically he picked up a lot from Schuerholz, he is highly respected and has made some positive changes already. In a brief conversation I had with him this spring he credited Schuerholz as being a big influence.

 

Many of these baseball people are more interconnected than any article or book would indicate.

 

Sure, well, I hope so, but you were talking about how big and close to John Schuerholz he was and he doesn't even get any credit from Schuerholz for anything even though John writes about them all the time. Further, I've never heard him mentioned in any of the many many many interviews with JS, so I really dispute that we've brought over an integral part of Atlanta or even a semi-integral part. We should be bringing in guys with good track records in Atlanta, Florida and Minnesota but why when they've never played for the White Sox?

[ottawa_sox]

As for the arms...Buehrle and Garland don't have enough torque on their pitches to screw up their arms. Vazquez is the only one that MAY...I repeat...MAY have arm trouble, but probably not. We have a good amount of pitchers that are serviceable coming through the system. But remember, Buehrle is our ace...and he was a 38th round pick.

 

Look, there are going to be your low pick, high reward guys like Buehrle and Piazza (51st round pick, IIRC). And you are going to have your busts...Gavin Floyd anyone? Or the Mets pitchers of the early 90's, Wilson, Van Poppel and I think Isringhausen.

 

Like Poplar said, baseball is up and down...the Tigers just a few years ago, were the absolute worst team in baseball...BY FAR. Now, not so much.

 

The White Sox need to do something about the instruction and the scouting, but I agree with Poplar that things can change, in a hurry. And I'd much rather have my team say, "We are going to retool and do our best to win NOW," than, "We are going to rebuild, enjoy these kids playing, but we are going to suck for a few years."

 

This is a well thought out, sober analysis of the situation. A welcome repreive from all the jump off the cliff, doomsday reactions typically found on sports message boards.

 

[Kalapse]

As for the arms...Buehrle and Garland don't have enough torque on their pitches to screw up their arms. Vazquez is the only one that MAY...I repeat...MAY have arm trouble, but probably not. We have a good amount of pitchers that are serviceable coming through the system. But remember, Buehrle is our ace...and he was a 38th round pick.

 

Look, there are going to be your low pick, high reward guys like Buehrle and Piazza (51st round pick, IIRC). And you are going to have your busts...Gavin Floyd anyone? Or the Mets pitchers of the early 90's, Wilson, Van Poppel and I think Isringhausen.

 

Like Poplar said, baseball is up and down...the Tigers just a few years ago, were the absolute worst team in baseball...BY FAR. Now, not so much.

 

The White Sox need to do something about the instruction and the scouting, but I agree with Poplar that things can change, in a hurry. And I'd much rather have my team say, "We are going to retool and do our best to win NOW," than, "We are going to rebuild, enjoy these kids playing, but we are going to suck for a few years."

I'd say Garland's mysterious 2 year "knot" counts as arm trouble.

[Gregory Pratt]

As for the arms...Buehrle and Garland don't have enough torque on their pitches to screw up their arms. Vazquez is the only one that MAY...I repeat...MAY have arm trouble, but probably not. We have a good amount of pitchers that are serviceable coming through the system. But remember, Buehrle is our ace...and he was a 38th round pick.

 

Look, there are going to be your low pick, high reward guys like Buehrle and Piazza (51st round pick, IIRC). And you are going to have your busts...Gavin Floyd anyone? Or the Mets pitchers of the early 90's, Wilson, Van Poppel and I think Isringhausen.

 

Like Poplar said, baseball is up and down...the Tigers just a few years ago, were the absolute worst team in baseball...BY FAR. Now, not so much.

 

The White Sox need to do something about the instruction and the scouting, but I agree with Poplar that things can change, in a hurry. And I'd much rather have my team say, "We are going to retool and do our best to win NOW," than, "We are going to rebuild, enjoy these kids playing, but we are going to suck for a few years."

 

Buehrle and Garland don't have enough torque to hurt their arms? Ha!

 

Sure, they aren't throwing Felix Hernandez' slider, but their arms can go same as anyone's.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'd say Garland's mysterious 2 year "knot" counts as arm trouble.

 

He's always had it.

[29andPoplar]

Sure, well, I hope so, but you were talking about how big and close to John Schuerholz he was and he doesn't even get any credit from Schuerholz for anything even though John writes about them all the time. Further, I've never heard him mentioned in any of the many many many interviews with JS, so I really dispute that we've brought over an integral part of Atlanta or even a semi-integral part. We should be bringing in guys with good track records in Atlanta, Florida and Minnesota but why when they've never played for the White Sox?

 

Not to argue semantics but where exactly did I say anything about big and close? I did say he was a top protogee, maybe I should spell it out better, Regier is a guy who worked in the Atlanta org., the Milwaukee org, and the Red Sox org. Regier has said Schuerholz and Bill Lajoie have been big influences on him, he learned a lot from each. If I intimated that Regier sat in Schuerholz's office every day and listened in on his phone calls I certainly did not mean to imply that. Worked with him, influenced by him, yes. Lajoie and Schuerholz know each other very well and both were big influences on Regier.

 

Again not to argue here but not everything is in that book you own.

 

As for the last statement I'm not sure what difference it makes if someone has played for the White Sox or not. Good baseball people are good baseball people no matter where they're from.

[WCSox]

I'd say Garland's mysterious 2 year "knot" counts as arm trouble.

 

Or perhaps he's just not as good a pitcher as '05 suggested.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Or perhaps he's just not as good a pitcher as '05 suggested.

Ozzie made Garland after Jerry Manuel nearly ruined him, if you want to believe everything you hear and read. Garland goes on rolls. His shoulder was tight the first half last season and he was battered, and it was tight the second half this one with the same result. When it was "loose" he was outstanding. I wonder if there's a bigger problem than a knot.

[WCSox]

Ozzie made Garland after Jerry Manuel nearly ruined him, if you want to believe everything you hear and read. Garland goes on rolls. His shoulder was tight the first half last season and he was battered, and it was tight the second half this one with the same result. When it was "loose" he was outstanding. I wonder if there's a bigger problem than a knot.

 

So was he experiencing this same "tightness" from '00-'04?

 

Either way, he's maddeningly inconsistent.