Rogers: Young trade haunting Sox

[Jeremy]

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...cs-home-utility

 

I bring this up not to bash Kenny yet again for trading Young but because it provides some insight into what I see as some flaws in the team's thinking.

 

Sure, Ken Williams knew he was taking a risk when he traded Chris Young to the Arizona Diamondbacks two years ago. He was living dangerously, and he knew it, but he couldn't foresee how little impact Javier Vazquez would have on the White Sox. Nor could he know that Brian Anderson would suffer an allergic reaction to big-league pitching.

 

Still, in the spring of 2006, when he was still dreaming of a long run atop the American League, Williams acknowledged the risks he was taking in regularly trading young talent for known quantities like Vazquez.

 

"One of these deals is going to come back to haunt us," Williams said during a talk at the Sox's Tucson minor-league complex. "It's part of the price that we pay to try to win on a consistent basis, not just every now and then. I know that's going to happen.

 

Kenny often gets credit for being bold. When the price is right as it was for Colon and Thome, his willingness to make big moves works well. The problem is that sometimes when the price is high as it was with Vazquez and Ritchie, he's overly aggressive. I guess what I'm saying is that the boldness can be a good thing but it definitely needs to be taken down a few notches.

 

 

"There's going to be a guy who shows up in the ESPN highlights all the time, making me get sick to my stomach. Chris could be that guy. He's a really good player, but not the only one we've got."

 

...

 

Williams also knew that Ryan Sweeney and Jerry Owens, who had played alongside Young in Birmingham, were on a similar developmental path. Owens, in fact, had just won a batting title at Birmingham and was having a great winter in Venezuela.

 

No one knew that Anderson and Sweeney would go backward, or that Owens would need 99 at-bats to drive in his first big-league run.

 

"You can't predict stuff like that," Young said. "Those guys are great players. You can't predict who's going to do what, all that. I don't keep up with their stats but I know all those guys have a ton of talent."

 

Young, it would appear, is the special one in the quartet. He didn't allow his career path to veer in the wrong direction either by being traded as a 22-year-old or because he missed his first spring training with Arizona after breaking a hand while working out.

 

I think we've had some struggles evaluating players in our own organization. Apparently, I was wrong about Jeremy Reed and the verdict is still out on BMac. However, I think we clearly made mistakes evaluating the quartet of Young, Sweeney, Anderson, and Owens. I find it problematic that the organization seems to place such a strong emphasis on the opinions of its scouts and as a result has a tendency to fall in love with players.

 

It troubled me that our apparent strategy for acquiring young pitchers (the Danks and Freddy trades) was to hand pick a number of minor league pitchers, send out scouts to watch them repeatedly, and then acquire the pitchers the scouts liked most. It seemed as though we didn't consider pitchers that weren't in the original group picked to focus on and it seems unwise to me to limit your scope like that. It seemed we maybe gave the scouts' opinions too much credit, particularly when we acquired Floyd. Based on quotes from Kenny or whatever other reason, I wondered whether we could've gotten players more highly regarded than Floyd but our scouts were particularly high on him so that's the deal we went with.

 

I think Young is right about Anderson: it was hard to predict he'd fall off the way that he has after he had back to back strong seasons in AA and AAA. Still, you have to keep in mind that some prospects will surprise you like that; you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket if you can avoid it. It's harder for me to forgive the team for putting so much faith in Sweeney and Owens. Owens hasn't drawn walks or hit for power at any level and was always old for his level. Sweeney obviously had potential but was always a big question mark because there was no telling whether or not he'd ever develop power. Kenny was willing to trade Reed and then Young because we had Owens, Sweeney, and Anderson and I've always thought it was a huge mistake to trade the A level prospects in the group because the team was infatuated with some of its B level prospects. Going forward, I think it's really important to hold onto the elite prospects in the system unless we're getting solid value in a prospect for prospect swap.

[3 BeWareTheNewSox 5]

Well for Colon (I still give Kenny credit for it), but it's not that hard to trade away Jeff Liefer.

 

I hated the Vazquez trade from day 1 because of Young, even if Vasquez is good this year, he was still looking average-below average in the NL, and we gave away a few potential relievers. Hate Viz as much as you want but his stats got inflated (in the bad way) and he was great to eat up innings. And I figured El Duque could be moved to the pen or traded again while BMac took the starting job. The worst part for me was also throwing in Young though, and it hurts to see all the multi HR games and the promising articles. The .avg/obp is bad, but it's still his rookie year, already close to 30/30, and he'd be good in the outfield. And Ari has plenty of young talent, yet they don't give up on him, wish we would've been as patient with some of our guys

 

[Jeremy]

The worst part for me was also throwing in Young though, and it hurts to see all the multi HR games and the promising articles. The .avg/obp is bad, but it's still his rookie year, already close to 30/30, and he'd be good in the outfield. And Ari has plenty of young talent, yet they don't give up on him, wish we would've been as patient with some of our guys

 

Yeah. I think the bottom line for me is that you just can't trade a blue chip prospect for a veteran unless you're getting great value. I guess part of the argument is that we were in win now mode but it's not like Young was that far away. Maybe some of it is just an issue of philosophy because mine is that you always have to be at least a little bit forward looking.

[jasonxctf]

personally i dont think chris young for Vazquez was such a bad deal. The sox were coming off a WS year knowing that Freddy Garcia was due to break down at any time, after El Duque broke down during the prior season.

 

Hell Chris Young is hitting all of .233 with a .286 OBP. (21 SB in 117 Games)

Jerry Owens is hitting .245 with a .295 OBP. (21 SB in 62 Games)

 

Yes, Chris has more power than Jerry, but Jerry has more speed. Right now the Sox don't need power hitters. We need OBP guys with some speed.

 

Vazquez by the way is 11-6 with a 3.66ERA.

[BearSox]

personally i dont think chris young for Vazquez was such a bad deal. The sox were coming off a WS year knowing that Freddy Garcia was due to break down at any time, after El Duque broke down during the prior season.

 

Hell Chris Young is hitting all of .233 with a .286 OBP. (21 SB in 117 Games)

Jerry Owens is hitting .245 with a .295 OBP. (21 SB in 62 Games)

 

Yes, Chris has more power than Jerry, but Jerry has more speed. Right now the Sox don't need power hitters. We need OBP guys with some speed.

 

Vazquez by the way is 11-6 with a 3.66ERA.

was... He got roughed up today thanks to no help from his defense and offense.

[Dick Allen]

was... He got roughed up today thanks to no help from his defense and offense.

Unless he had defenders stationed in the bleachers, they weren't going to help him much.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think this article is like critiquing the paint job on the titanic. That trade was, to me, a win. Still is. Might not be be later, but in any case, it is not even in the top 10 or 20 problems for this team. Vaz has been a very good pick up.

 

[Dick Allen]

personally i dont think chris young for Vazquez was such a bad deal. The sox were coming off a WS year knowing that Freddy Garcia was due to break down at any time, after El Duque broke down during the prior season.

 

Hell Chris Young is hitting all of .233 with a .286 OBP. (21 SB in 117 Games)

Jerry Owens is hitting .245 with a .295 OBP. (21 SB in 62 Games)

 

Yes, Chris has more power than Jerry, but Jerry has more speed. Right now the Sox don't need power hitters. We need OBP guys with some speed.

 

Vazquez by the way is 11-6 with a 3.66ERA.

Duque is 9-4 with a 3.07'

Vizcaino is 8-2 with a 3.66

 

Chris Young is 23 years old. He will eventually get on base more often than Jerry Owens, and he can drive in a run once in a while. He's far and away a better player than Owens.

[jasonxctf]

yeah i don't get it. people around here seem to have a big stiffy for Chris Young. Don't quite understand why. He nad Juan Uribe seem to be having a contest on who can be a worse hitter.

[jasonxctf]

Duque is 9-4 with a 3.07'

Vizcaino is 8-2 with a 3.66

 

Chris Young is 23 years old. He will eventually get on base more often than Jerry Owens, and he can drive in a run once in a while. He's far and away a better player than Owens.

 

fine, then the article and discussion should be why the Duque/Vizcaino portion of the deal was bad. Not Chris Young.

[BearSox]

Unless he had defenders stationed in the bleachers, they weren't going to help him much.

It might not show it in the boxscore, but the blown DP by Gonzalez opened up the game for the Red Sox.

[Dick Allen]

fine, then the article and discussion should be why the Duque/Vizcaino portion of the deal was bad. Not Chris Young.

Chris Young is the key to the deal. If he remains healthy, he most likely will be the best player out of all of the players in the deal. The Sox need a major league CF. Chris Young, while his OBP is not very good, is improving at the plate, hits with power, steals bases and according to Orlando Hudson is right there amoung the top defensive CF in baseball. Sounds like someone the Sox can use. The problem I had with getting rid of Duque wasn't really his pitching, which has really shocked me how good he's been, I thought his leaving would hurt Contreras. I don't know if it did, Contreras was pretty good the first half of last season, but I think if Duque was around right now, Jose would be a better pitcher. I have no proof, but just a feeling. Vizcaino is a pretty valuable guy himself. I didn't like the trade, Vazquez has been better this year, but I'm still not sold on him. The bottom line is if the trade hadn't been made the Sox still wouldn't have won last year, and they wouldn't have won this year.

[Dick Allen]

It might not show it in the boxscore, but the blown DP by Gonzalez opened up the game for the Red Sox.

White Sox pitchers as a group need to do a better job of pitching over miscues.

[BearSox]

Duque is 9-4 with a 3.07'

Vizcaino is 8-2 with a 3.66

 

Chris Young is 23 years old. He will eventually get on base more often than Jerry Owens, and he can drive in a run once in a while. He's far and away a better player than Owens.

Yeah... Duque would probably be dominating for the White Sox in the AL central and would be able to give the team 200+ innings and such for the next 3 years since he is what, only 30?

 

And Vizcaino would be the key to this bullpen...

 

And can't forget about the fact that with Chris Young, we would have had so many more key runs driven in with that great average of his with RISP.

 

It amazes me how people can underestimate how good of a pitcher Vazquez is. Believe it or not, but Vazquez is probably the best starter this team has.

[Jeremy]

personally i dont think chris young for Vazquez was such a bad deal. The sox were coming off a WS year knowing that Freddy Garcia was due to break down at any time, after El Duque broke down during the prior season.

 

Hell Chris Young is hitting all of .233 with a .286 OBP. (21 SB in 117 Games)

Jerry Owens is hitting .245 with a .295 OBP. (21 SB in 62 Games)

 

Yes, Chris has more power than Jerry, but Jerry has more speed. Right now the Sox don't need power hitters. We need OBP guys with some speed.

 

Vazquez by the way is 11-6 with a 3.66ERA.

 

I don't think an extra 10 SB's by Owens does much to close the massive gap created by the additional 30 home runs Young will hit. Owens would have to steal about 120 bases more than Young to do that.

 

Vazquez is outproducing Young this season but that's only part of the puzzle. Young is under the DBacks control for five seasons after this one and will make less than a million dollars for the next two seasons. It's really more like Young plus a $10 million a year free agent v. Javy. Also, Vazquez is 31 so his production will probably drop off over the course of the next few seasons while Young figures to improve substantially. In two years, Young might be hitting .280/.360/.580 while Javy's ERA is 4.8.

[Jeremy]

yeah i don't get it. people around here seem to have a big stiffy for Chris Young. Don't quite understand why. He nad Juan Uribe seem to be having a contest on who can be a worse hitter.

 

Chris Young is a 23 year old rookie hitting .236/.288/.476 while Uribe is a 28 year old veteran hitting .219/.271/.363. I'm not seeing it.

[santo=dorf]

Chris Young is a 23 year old rookie hitting .236/.288/.476 while Uribe is a 28 year old veteran hitting .219/.271/.363. I'm not seeing it.

Jason has no idea what that means. I guess the only stats you can use to compare Young and Owens are stolen bases and batting average.

[Flash Tizzle]

My expectations of Williams this winter is to assemble a trade package in which, two years from now, journalists of the opposing team are writing articles suggesting the deal is "haunting" them.

 

That's just the position he put himself in. He better not fail, for his sake and the success of his franchise.

[Chet Lemon]

I think that this was a semi-bad trade for the Sox, but not because of the season Young is currently having. Vazquez was brought in to help the team get back to the World Series in '06. He had some bad luck last season, but should have pitched much better. He has been excellent this year.

[RME JICO]

The key to the whole trade comes down to Anderson. Vazquez for Young would have been easier to swallow now if Anderson was the starting CF hitting around .250 and playing great D.

 

BTW, Young just hit 2 more HRs and drove in 4 in a victory over the Cubs.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah... Duque would probably be dominating for the White Sox in the AL central and would be able to give the team 200+ innings and such for the next 3 years since he is what, only 30?

 

And Vizcaino would be the key to this bullpen...

 

And can't forget about the fact that with Chris Young, we would have had so many more key runs driven in with that great average of his with RISP.

 

It amazes me how people can underestimate how good of a pitcher Vazquez is. Believe it or not, but Vazquez is probably the best starter this team has.

I wouldn't call Vazquez dominating. He had 10 ks today also 3 gopher balls. He's having a decent year, but he's been known to fall apart. If he's so great, how come he's not even .500 in his career? If you tell me its because he was on bad teams, how come he was below .500 last year on a team that won 90 games?

[fathom]

I wouldn't call Vazquez dominating. He had 10 ks today also 3 gopher balls. He's having a decent year, but he's been known to fall apart. If he's so great, how come he's not even .500 in his career? If you tell me its because he was on bad teams, how come he was below .500 last year on a team that won 90 games?

 

I was thinking of how typical Vazquez's game was, according to you. He looks great, but the results just aren't there too often.

[Gregory Pratt]

My expectations of Williams this winter is to assemble a trade package in which, two years from now, journalists of the opposing team are writing articles suggesting the deal is "haunting" them.

 

That's just the position he put himself in. He better not fail, for his sake and the success of his franchise.

 

I wonder if you're just being rhetorical, because you've spoken about how Garland needs to go and KW needs to do whatever or we need to draft whatnot and "KW better not fail," and he always does by your standards and mine, but you seem to cut him more slack.

[Gregory Pratt]

I was thinking of how typical Vazquez's game was, according to you. He looks great, but the results just aren't there too often.

 

You, me and DA are in complete agreement about Javier Vazquez. Good for him, having an alright season and year 1/2 since last year's ASB, but he isn't THAT good, and I definitely don't count him as a lock to do what he's done this year next year. He's a valuable enough guy, but he is more a three or four than a one or two, genuinely electric stuff be slammed over the wall.

[Gregory Pratt]

Ah, the old W-L argument with pitchers. A fantastic way to tell you the capability of a pitcher...

 

Better than ignoring his ERA over the years and W/L totals in favor of what computers project he SHOULD be at based on his strikeouts and groundball/flyball ratio.