Rogers: Young trade haunting Sox

[Rowand44]

Vazquez has been pretty awesome this year. This was his first bad outing in a long freakin time, it's going to happen at times. I'm starting to despise Chris Young and I don't even have anything against him.

[Brian]

Vazquez has been pretty awesome this year. This was his first bad outing in a long freakin time, it's going to happen at times. I'm starting to despise Chris Young and I don't even have anything against him.

 

I'm with you. The kid K's a lot and doesn't hit for average. Pitchers could figure him out next year and show that he can not adjust.

[rangercal]

Kenny has his eye on the prize at all times. Some of the experts in this forum would be too much of a pussy to ever win the World Series. You will always be the oaklands of the world, always a solid team but not in the World Series. Keep taking the safe route, have fun with the 1st rd exits.

[witesoxfan]

One bad outing and the flood gates open up for Vazquez, yet we can't trade Jon Garland because he's one of the best starters in the league. Where is the ripping on of Garland? Pratt has, but if you are going to say Vazquez blows up for a good portion of the season, you have to include Garland. ERA of like 6 or 7 since the ASB and an ERA of like 6.50 in the first two months of last season.

 

I don't know about you, but I'll gladly take a pitcher with a 3.89 ERA who got roughed up by one of the best offenses in baseball, instead of tearing into him for his first bad outing in like 2 months. 7 ER in 6 innings is his worst outing of the year...I wonder how other Sox starters stack up to that...?

[Jeremy]

I'm with you. The kid K's a lot and doesn't hit for average. Pitchers could figure him out next year and show that he can not adjust.

 

Huh? Kinda like how pitchers have figured out Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, Mike Cameron and will soon figure out Josh Fields?

 

And thats not a knock on Josh. I just have to laugh at those pilling on the Sox, getting on them for the Young trade, will also be critical of Fields, when he has been more productive than Young(over 500 projected AB's)

 

I love Josh and I'm pretty consistent in my evaluations, so you won't see my pilling on him any time soon. Their rate numbers are virtually identical though and Chris probably has the edge in defense and certainly base running so I don't see Josh as more productive. I sure wish we had both guys.

 

 

[Gregory Pratt]

One bad outing and the flood gates open up for Vazquez, yet we can't trade Jon Garland because he's one of the best starters in the league. Where is the ripping on of Garland? Pratt has, but if you are going to say Vazquez blows up for a good portion of the season, you have to include Garland. ERA of like 6 or 7 since the ASB and an ERA of like 6.50 in the first two months of last season.

 

I don't know about you, but I'll gladly take a pitcher with a 3.89 ERA who got roughed up by one of the best offenses in baseball, instead of tearing into him for his first bad outing in like 2 months. 7 ER in 6 innings is his worst outing of the year...I wonder how other Sox starters stack up to that...?

 

I think Vazquez is a very good 3/4 pitcher, nothing more, strikeouts be damned. I expect his ERA to wind up higher than it is and higher next year than it is for sure. That said, he's a good guy to have, as above-average and even average-innings are extremely valuable, but either he or Garland can be dealt and I'd have no issue with it, especially if we can get them to overpay but nobody's going to overpay for either because KW doesn't know how to force people to overpay and besides that, the time to make people overpay was when Jon Garland was coming off a great and good season with some years left on his contract and not now.

[hitlesswonder]

One bad outing and the flood gates open up for Vazquez, yet we can't trade Jon Garland because he's one of the best starters in the league. Where is the ripping on of Garland?

 

I'll rip on both. Neither one of Garland or Vazquez is a top-tier or even second-tier pitcher at this point in their careers. Neither one is more than a #4 starter on a playoff team. Both are overpaid. And if Williams has any clue what he's doing, Vazquez needs to be traded this offseason. He's having a decent season, and someone might get suckered like the Sox did.

Edited August 27, 2007 by hitlesswonder

[hitlesswonder]

 

 

Sorry, I'm not seeing #4 at best there.

 

I'll switch to saying #3 then...

[Flash Tizzle]

I wonder if you're just being rhetorical, because you've spoken about how Garland needs to go and KW needs to do whatever or we need to draft whatnot and "KW better not fail," and he always does by your standards and mine, but you seem to cut him more slack.

I just phrased it wrong. Probably should have proof read the post first.

 

I meant "assembling a trade package" as in receiving a trade package from another team. One in which, several years from now, the journalists responsible for covering said team write how much the trade has haunted them. Meaning, quite simply, Williams had pulled ahead in the deal.

[witesoxfan]

I think Vazquez is a very good 3/4 pitcher, nothing more, strikeouts be damned. I expect his ERA to wind up higher than it is and higher next year than it is for sure. That said, he's a good guy to have, as above-average and even average-innings are extremely valuable, but either he or Garland can be dealt and I'd have no issue with it, especially if we can get them to overpay but nobody's going to overpay for either because KW doesn't know how to force people to overpay and besides that, the time to make people overpay was when Jon Garland was coming off a great and good season with some years left on his contract and not now.

 

You can get teams to overpay for Vazquez, especially if he's coming off a good year. So long as Johan Santana doesn't become available on the trade market next year, Minaya will be calling about Javy, and that I have no doubt about. Schuerholz could be too, but he kind of traded every last chip he had that the Sox should be interested in, unless they are willing to deal Escobar - at that point, the two can atleast talk. Add to it that there are several others who would be interested in a pitcher whose stuff has not fallen off the table, and a pitcher who has never had injury problems in his life.

 

Garland I agree with partly because of his bum shoulder, partly because he always has been a mediocre pitcher, and partly because he only has 1 year left on his deal. I was all for the Sox dealing him at the deadline, but they felt it necessary to hang onto him; now, I'd be surprised if the Sox can get Hu and a reliever from LA for him (though I may actually take that deal).

 

I'll rip on both. Neither one of Garland or Vazquez is a top-tier or even second-tier pitcher at this point in their careers. Neither one is more than a #4 starter on a playoff team. Both are overpaid. And if Williams has any clue what he's doing, Vazquez needs to be traded this offseason. He's having a decent season, and someone might get suckered like the Sox did.

 

So would you rather have Gil Meche, Ted Lilly, or Javier Vazquez? Overpaid my ass, he's going to give you 200 innings of atleast average pitching with the potential to be more; Meche has a history of injuries, Lilly put up an ERA over 5.50 as recently as 2005, while the worst ERA Vazquez has put up in the 2000s is a 4.91.

 

They aren't aces, but you try and find me aces who have signed contracts after 6 years of service (thus, excluding Johan because he signed his contract after I believe his 4th year in the league) that have signed for $11.5 mill, let alone the $10 mill a year that Garland got. Vazquez I will depend upon to be my 3rd starter all day long, and Garland is a good 4th.

 

And needs to get traded, GTFO...there's something wrong with a pitcher who puts up a sub 4 ERA nowadays huh? Who are you going to replace him with, Nick Masset? Or would you rather have Garcia and McCarthy too? I'm all for a rebuild - which would involve trading Vazquez - but if the Sox think they have a shot at competing, Vazquez is going to be here no questions asked.

 

The Young trade isn't haunting the Sox, because this situation would not have been avoided had they kept Young, Duque, and Vizcaino. People are merely using the trade as a scapegoat because Young is having a good rookie season. I'm not going to lie, I think the world of Chris Young, but he couldn't take this chicken s*** and turn it into chicken soup. It would be nice to have him penciled in CF for the next 5 years, but it's also nice to know that the Sox have a valuable trading chip in their rotation who just so happens to be a really good starting pitcher.

[CWSGuy406]

The topic of Young vs Vazquez is always quite interesting. Vazquez is more valuable in that it's harder to find starting pitcher's of his quality for his price (I'll qualify this saying if he gives the Sox 600 innings of a ~4.00 ERA over the life of his three year deal), but Young, in my mind, projects to be more valuable in the 'on-field' value sense -- he's a CFer who gives you plus defense, plus baserunning and a league average bat, all for the league minimum.

 

I didn't RTFA, but it seems to me like Rogers is missing the point. Having Young instead of Vazquez would make the Sox marginally better over the next couple years, even if the Sox had that extra $30 million. The trade itself isn't the problem. The problem is that there haven't been more Chris Young's or Josh Fields' in the system to replace CY himself. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but has anyone in the media called out just how awful Sox player (minor league) development has been or how poorly they've (seemingly) drafed? I'm not talking about the Marrioti "the Sox are cheap scumbags!" hogwash either -- has anybody gone beyond the Scott Podsednik's and Darin Erstad's of the world?

 

I'm going off on another tangent here, but damn do the beat writers for the Sox suck. I would trade every writer in this town for Joe Posnanski in KC...

[Dick Allen]

Ah, the old W-L argument with pitchers. A fantastic way to tell you the capability of a pitcher...

If you look at his ERA vs. the league ERA over his career, more often than not, his ERA is higher than the league's. I would rather base a guy's performance on wins and losses and ERA than strikeouts.

[RockRaines]

Duque is 9-4 with a 3.07'

Vizcaino is 8-2 with a 3.66

 

Chris Young is 23 years old. He will eventually get on base more often than Jerry Owens, and he can drive in a run once in a while. He's far and away a better player than Owens.

Yes, but at the time it was the correct move.

[elrockinMT]

Unless he had defenders stationed in the bleachers, they weren't going to help him much.

 

 

Our pitchers do seem to give up a lot of homers

[sircaffey]

Kenny has his eye on the prize at all times. Some of the experts in this forum would be too much of a pussy to ever win the World Series. You will always be the oaklands of the world, always a solid team but not in the World Series. Keep taking the safe route, have fun with the 1st rd exits.

 

That's all and well if you consistently produce quality prospects, but pretty soon the way KW has been going the cupboard is going to be completely bare (it's already pathetic). If KW doesnt change his philosophy, then all the Sox are going to be, is an old patchwork team for the rest of his tenure. Luckily for us, it should only be one more pathetic season.

 

Can't wait for Kenny to blow his load on Hunter this offseason, locking in another aging veteran for the next 5 years. So glad he's not playing it safe. At least he doesnt have to trade for him.

[Balta1701]

Can't wait for Kenny to blow his load on Hunter this offseason, locking in another aging veteran for the next 5 years. So glad he's not playing it safe. At least he doesnt have to trade for him.

And the good news is...we can sign an A-level free agent and not have to worry about losing our first round pick!

[sircaffey]

And the good news is...we can sign an A-level free agent and not have to worry about losing our first round pick!

 

Who needs those anyways? Certainly not one of the worst farm systems in the league.

[sircaffey]

At least we save money on that draft pick!

[WCSox]

As much as I like Young, we're going to need Javy to anchor the middle of the rotation after Jon leaves (which could be in less than 12 months).

 

[RockRaines]

As much as I like Young, we're going to need Javy to anchor the middle of the rotation after Jon leaves (which could be in less than 12 months).

Yup.

 

Hopefully our new top draft pick next year will be both high-priced and highly talented.

[Dick Allen]

The cost is prohibitive. You have to pay Vazquez $11 million a year. You will have to pay a Rowand or a Hunter $12million to $18 million a year. You could have Young making close to minimum in CF and $25 million a year to play with.

[witesoxfan]

The cost is prohibitive. You have to pay Vazquez $11 million a year. You will have to pay a Rowand or a Hunter $12million to $18 million a year. You could have Young making close to minimum in CF and $25 million a year to play with.

 

and who's the 3rd starter?

[Dick Allen]

and who's the 3rd starter?

You would have $25 million a year to find one. Even KW probably could do that.

[Jeremy]

The topic of Young vs Vazquez is always quite interesting. Vazquez is more valuable in that it's harder to find starting pitcher's of his quality for his price (I'll qualify this saying if he gives the Sox 600 innings of a ~4.00 ERA over the life of his three year deal), but Young, in my mind, projects to be more valuable in the 'on-field' value sense -- he's a CFer who gives you plus defense, plus baserunning and a league average bat, all for the league minimum.

 

I didn't RTFA, but it seems to me like Rogers is missing the point. Having Young instead of Vazquez would make the Sox marginally better over the next couple years, even if the Sox had that extra $30 million. The trade itself isn't the problem. The problem is that there haven't been more Chris Young's or Josh Fields' in the system to replace CY himself. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but has anyone in the media called out just how awful Sox player (minor league) development has been or how poorly they've (seemingly) drafed? I'm not talking about the Marrioti "the Sox are cheap scumbags!" hogwash either -- has anybody gone beyond the Scott Podsednik's and Darin Erstad's of the world?

 

I'm going off on another tangent here, but damn do the beat writers for the Sox suck. I would trade every writer in this town for Joe Posnanski in KC...

 

Hmm. I think that unless you believe you couldn't sign remotely as valuable as Javy for a similar amount of money then the $30 million and Young makes the team more than marginally better. You'd essentially be able to have Young and use that money to sign a pitcher who's not much worse than Javy.

 

Your point about the farm system is well taken but I also feel that some teams who evaluate players differently wouldn't have parted with a Chris Young nearly as easily and that's interesting to me. I could be wrong, for e.g. Oakland shocked a lot of people when they moved Carlos Pena who people assumed they'd be really high on. Generally though, teams aren't trading their elite level prospects. Kenny was either really desperate to land Vazquez, didn't regard Chris as highly as others, or both.

[jasonxctf]

The cost is prohibitive. You have to pay Vazquez $11 million a year. You will have to pay a Rowand or a Hunter $12million to $18 million a year. You could have Young making close to minimum in CF and $25 million a year to play with.

 

or do the same with Jerry Owens.