Why can't it be both ways?

[whitesoxfan101]

I keep seeing it, all over the boards. It's always the same argument, one person says "we suck, we need a new GM, we need a new manager" and the other person says "Why? We just won 2 years ago. Yeah this year is horrible, but don't panic so fast, Ozzie and KW led us to glory in 2005. I'd rather be us than the Cubs". It's not always like that exactly, but it's pretty much close to that at all times, you see my point.

 

Now, I'd assume that person means it's better to have won and lost than never to have won it all as the one thread here says, but why can't we have it both ways. Why can't we be like the Angels, who won it all in 2002 and have been in contention/in the playoffs every year since? Why can't we be the Yankees, who yeah "haven't won" since 2000, but are also in the playoffs every year and won all those titles. What about the Red Sox, who are always right there as we saw this weekend and did win it in 2004? Why can't we even be the damn Cardinals, who have won all but 1 division title this decade, won it all last year, and are 2 games out of 1st place right now? (I could keep going on with examples like the Braves and Mets and such, but people will just say "but we won it all", so forget it).

 

Well, the problem is some of our fans have lowered their standards and lost the hunger they had that made our fanbase so great before 2005. I don't think our fanbase has fallen into a post 2005 post bandwagon depression and turned awful after our title like the Red Sox, but it seems that a lot of our fans are saying "well, that's it, we won a title, time for me to be happy and wait to die". Didn't 2005 feel good? Don't you want that to happen again? And most of all, do you find the 2nd worst record in baseball and a farm system barren of talent acceptable? If so, continue to defend our manager and GM until the death, but when a team is this bad and has a system that might be even worse in a division full of talent all around, I think questions need to be asked and changes need to be made.

Edited August 27, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[fathom]

Ozzie embarassed himself by saying that even though we got swept this wknd, we did sweep them "when it counted" in 2005. It's that type of living in the past attitude which is killing this organization.

[Chisoxrd5]

I still feel gitty just thinking about how great the 2005 WS was and forever will be. To have a World Series happen during my lifetime, especially while I was young and reckless enough to fully enjoy it, definitely rocks.

 

HOWEVER, the fact is the year is 2007. We're now the second worst team in baseball. We have a horrific offense, and a barren farm system. The team looks old and has quit. I have season tickets that I can't get rid of and I find myself wandering the park instead of watching a listless team lose night in and night out.

 

I am on record for saying that if we were to never, ever again win another WS I would be fine with it. Sure, I will be fine. Granted, I never thought a half season after the championship we would turn into a doormat. I just don't see how being content with the trophy and being upset that the team currently is a disaster area correlate.

 

I'm happy we won, but I would like to see a successful product on the field.

 

Also, if the traffic on this board doesn't speak for itself of what kind of disservice this organization has done to itself...Oye

 

 

[Gregory Pratt]

Ozzie embarassed himself by saying that even though we got swept this wknd, we did sweep them "when it counted" in 2005. It's that type of living in the past attitude which is killing this organization.

 

Our inability to scout, draft and develop is killing this organization; our inability to play at a Major League Level with Major League Players is killing this team; our owner and general manager are killing me.

[fathom]

Our inability to scout, draft and develop is killing this organization; our inability to play at a Major League Level with Major League Players is killing this team; our owner and general manager are killing me.

 

I just don't know how you still are 100 pct behind Ozzie. I know you place the blame on KW for the lack of talent, which is fine. But the seemingly lack of motivation Ozzie is supplying this team is mind-blowing. Ever since the reports started about problems in the clubhouse a few months ago, things have gone from bad to horrible. Jerry Manuel was always criticized for his supposed lack of motivation, and he never, ever saw a stretch as bad as this. And for the record, I thought Manuel deserved to be fired when he was, as it was clear his players were turning him out. I'm very concerned that's happening with Ozzie.

Edited August 27, 2007 by fathom

[Flash Tizzle]

I believe entering 2008, it'd be best for no one within the organization to reference 2005 anymore. It'd be great if such a loose restriction were placed on this website as well. Yes, we're all happy the White Sox won a championship; but two seasons will have passed. Reminds me of Soxtalk in 2003, and how you'd frequently find someone mentioning the 2000 team. It just becomes a stale comparison after while. This team within this division has changed for the worse since then. Time to move on and begin concerning ourselves with this current team and its forseeable future. That should extend to the possible job security of management and the coaching staff. Don't tell us how the same core is remaining. Try to look forward, not backwards.

 

I'm actually awaiting this offseason. It'll be vitally important for Williams first, to acquire talented prospects, and second -- assemble a ballclub capable of contending (such everyone seems convinced those are his intentions.) He's only making it more difficult on himself, to be truthful. If Williams were to begin a rebuilding phase, we'd atleast expect hardships. What's the excuse going to be when he has every intention of competing next season, as he did for 2007, and the team again finishes poorly? 2005 nonwithstanding, his future with this organization should be short.

 

My number one goal leading into Spring of 2008 (because I honestly don't have any expectations for the season) is to improve the minor league system by any means. I don't even want to hear about "prospects being worth their weight in gold." I just don't care. Get it done, Williams. Find your ballclub talented prospects, and not just "diamonds in the roughs." You sure have quite the mess to overcome.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Gregory Pratt]

I just don't know how you still are 100 pct behind Ozzie. I know you place the blame on KW for the lack of talent, which is fine. But the seemingly lack of motivation Ozzie is supplying this team is mind-blowing. Ever since the reports started about problems in the clubhouse a few months ago, things have gone from bad to horrible. Jerry Manuel was always criticized for his supposed lack of motivation, and he never, ever saw a stretch as bad as this. And for the record, I thought Manuel deserved to be fired when he was, as it was clear his players were turning him out. I'm very concerned that's happening with Ozzie.

 

I couldn't believe my eyes with that Hinske shift or the Cuban Death March v. Boston. I have been very disappointed with Ozzie this year, but he is the least of them all. I will say this, though: if it ever becomes clear that Ozzie has been tuned out, he should be fired immediately, or the players should be (and you know what I mean: meaning: not literally). Some of me thinks that Ozzie simply needs a better team and he isn't trying so hard either. Some of me believes that this team has tuned him out, though a few sources say nonono! to that. Most of me believes that the problems are 95% roster construction, poor scouting and awful coaching. Assuming this team is upgraded next year, we'll see if that's true or not.

[fathom]

I couldn't believe my eyes with that Hinske shift or the Cuban Death March v. Boston. I have been very disappointed with Ozzie this year, but he is the least of them all. I will say this, though: if it ever becomes clear that Ozzie has been tuned out, he should be fired immediately, or the players should be (and you know what I mean: meaning: not literally). Some of me thinks that Ozzie simply needs a better team and he isn't trying so hard either. Some of me believes that this team has tuned him out, though a few sources say nonono! to that. Most of me believes that the problems are 95% roster construction, poor scouting and awful coaching. Assuming this team is upgraded next year, we'll see if that's true or not.

 

Good job with this post.

[kapkomet]

I couldn't believe my eyes with that Hinske shift or the Cuban Death March v. Boston. I have been very disappointed with Ozzie this year, but he is the least of them all. I will say this, though: if it ever becomes clear that Ozzie has been tuned out, he should be fired immediately, or the players should be (and you know what I mean: meaning: not literally). Some of me thinks that Ozzie simply needs a better team and he isn't trying so hard either. Some of me believes that this team has tuned him out, though a few sources say nonono! to that. Most of me believes that the problems are 95% roster construction, poor scouting and awful coaching. Assuming this team is upgraded next year, we'll see if that's true or not.

Very well put.

 

 

[TLAK]

Danks, Floyd, Logan, Wasserman, Fields, Richar, Gonzalez, Owens.

 

8 rookies or first full season men out of the 25 on the roster. Thats a lot.

 

 

[Yossarian]

Danks, Floyd, Logan, Wasserman, Fields, Richar, Gonzalez, Owens.

 

8 rookies or first full season men out of the 25 on the roster. Thats a lot.

Those names leave me trembling with excitement.

 

[Dick Allen]

Ozzie had a comment yesterday to Jerry Remy where he said Boston was in a pennant race and implied that would make them play harder. If the White Sox have quit because they haven't been successful, more than just Ozzie needs to be fired.

[Balance]

I couldn't believe my eyes with that Hinske shift or the Cuban Death March v. Boston. I have been very disappointed with Ozzie this year, but he is the least of them all. I will say this, though: if it ever becomes clear that Ozzie has been tuned out, he should be fired immediately, or the players should be (and you know what I mean: meaning: not literally). Some of me thinks that Ozzie simply needs a better team and he isn't trying so hard either. Some of me believes that this team has tuned him out, though a few sources say nonono! to that. Most of me believes that the problems are 95% roster construction, poor scouting and awful coaching. Assuming this team is upgraded next year, we'll see if that's true or not.

Quoted for Troof.

 

[LVSoxFan]

I will say that when you get somebody as emotional as Ozzie, perhaps that is a problem. Or better: somebody who doesn't hide their emotions. Sure when things were good and he was bouncing around the dugout in '05 we loved it. Then after the ASB Cliff of 2006 gone were the smiles and the clowning and the "Let's go boys!" and instead we got Sulking Ozzie, sitting there, hell... bringing me down. Plus, the tirades with the pitchers in front of the team.

 

I think of managers like Joe Torre, LaRussa, Leland, the Cleveland guy, Gardenhire... they're pretty much poker faced during games unless they get pissed.

 

So I wonder if he's awesome when things are good but those manic/DP lows are what's just exacerbating the problem.

 

Just a thought, don't know this for sure.

[Allsox]

Ozzie embarassed himself by saying that even though we got swept this wknd, we did sweep them "when it counted" in 2005. It's that type of living in the past attitude which is killing this organization.

 

Actually, I didn't mind that quote at all. I mean, what else can Ozzie say after that series and the amount of Red Cub fans, I mean, Red Sox fans in the stands?

[greg775]

I believe entering 2008, it'd be best for no one within the organization to reference 2005 anymore. It'd be great if such a loose restriction were placed on this website as well. Yes, we're all happy the White Sox won a championship; but two seasons will have passed. Reminds me of Soxtalk in 2003, and how you'd frequently find someone mentioning the 2000 team. It just becomes a stale comparison after while. This team within this division has changed for the worse since then. Time to move on and begin concerning ourselves with this current team and its forseeable future. That should extend to the possible job security of management and the coaching staff. Don't tell us how the same core is remaining. Try to look forward, not backwards.

 

I'm actually awaiting this offseason. It'll be vitally important for Williams first, to acquire talented prospects, and second -- assemble a ballclub capable of contending (such everyone seems convinced those are his intentions.) He's only making it more difficult on himself, to be truthful. If Williams were to begin a rebuilding phase, we'd atleast expect hardships. What's the excuse going to be when he has every intention of competing next season, as he did for 2007, and the team again finishes poorly? 2005 nonwithstanding, his future with this organization should be short.

 

My number one goal leading into Spring of 2008 (because I honestly don't have any expectations for the season) is to improve the minor league system by any means. I don't even want to hear about "prospects being worth their weight in gold." I just don't care. Get it done, Williams. Find your ballclub talented prospects, and not just "diamonds in the roughs." You sure have quite the mess to overcome.

 

Tizzle said it all. Yes all Sox fans should forever be grateful to this cast of characters who won it all.

I think they all deserve the benefit of the doubt for 2 seasons. I never thought of it that way til Tizzle brought it up.

I'd think starting next season everybody should be judged with a clean slate, like Tizzle said. But I think they did all deserve these 2 seasons of getting the benefit of the doubt.

If the team remains Royals-like in June next year, some heads should roll.

Probably Oz first, then KW. I'd prefer the other order, though.