Who would you like to see fired the most?

[Chet Lemon]

I voted Walker, but I believe if the team fails to make the playoffs next year, KW should be fired.

[WCSox]

Oh, so that's why Shapiro undeservingly gets more credit. I'd say the Indians were in a hell of a lot better shape before Shapiro than the White Sox before KW.

 

At least they were financially. They had 455 consecutive sellouts from '95-'01, right when Shapiro took over.

 

[Dick Allen]

That's great and all, but has little to do with KW.

 

The Bulls have won 6 championships over the past 15 NBA seasons (40%,) but that doesn't make Paxson the best GM in the NBA.

Just like wins and loses in the playoffs has little to do with KW. It wasn't because of KW the ball went through Tony G's legs. KW had nothing to do with Konerko hitting a grand slam. He didn't turn on a giant fan to push Pods homer into the seats. Once you get into the playoffs, it pretty much a crapshoot. Is Jockety a genius for winning with a team that won 83 regular season games? KW won one, I'll tip my hat, wire to wire, it doesn't happen very often, but it doesn't give him a lifetime pass. He'll be here next year, and probably a long time after that. It will be interesting to see how he intends to fix this. I think its more than tweaks which are needed. I hope he agrees.

[Dick Allen]

At least they were financially. They had 455 consecutive sellouts from '95-'01, right when Shapiro took over.

Actually the Indians were sold then, and I'm pretty sure that's why Hart bailed. The new owner paid a premium. He bought high. In fact, he probably couldn't have bought higher. I think he then started having other financial issues.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I voted Walker, but I believe if the team fails to make the playoffs next year, KW should be fired.

That ship has sailed. The '08 White Sox aren't going to the playoffs.

[Allsox]

I have to say no one.

 

2 years of 90+ wins, 1 year of bad.

 

Ill wait and see till next year, not exactly sure what other GM's would have done better or worse, considering the Sox have had a few GM's in my life time and most did not put together the winning teams that KW has.

 

I agree. The way the players have performed this yr, it's left this coaching staff and KW with absolutely nothing they can do. It's not like KW expected them to completely suck or Ozzie would see a complete lack of execution. All phases (Pitching, defense and offense) have been failures with a couple of exceptions (Jenks, Buerhle).

I fire none of the above.

[Gregory Pratt]

I don't know that the Sox have been so successful under KW. He did win , I'll give him that, but for the majority of the time he's been the GM the division has been weak. KC and Det. were absolutely atrocious, Cleveland rebuilt. Minnesota has turned over their roster. In the six years he didn't win a championship or division or wild card, KW's teams are a combined 9 games over .500. Considering the unbalanced schedule, its not so impressive, at least to the degree where you can say without a doubt that KW is the smartest GM around.

 

This is a great post. And it's not coming from one of the "younger" posters. I mean, I'm not calling you old homie, I'm just sayin' that choo are a grown ass man and so you obviously aren't being crazy and young. But really, he's been oh-so-successful and we've been "in the hunt!"

 

If someone HAD to be fired...I think it should be Walker. Only because the hitters haven't had hardly ANY success the last year and a half. Except for Dye last year and well, no one this year. But, I don't think he will be fired...he'll be re-assigned.

 

And 101...let's not go there, buddy. Schuerholz is one of the best in the game...he won 15 division titles in a row. How many rings with the Braves??? One. And I bet you can ask every single Braves fan that if they could either have 15 in a row or that one ring in the 90's, I think most would say the ring.

 

And I would as well. As I said in another thread...I like Kenny because he takes a risk...sometimes it backfires, obviously. Sometimes it doesn't, 2005. But, he's not afraid to pull the trigger and take the heat, even if he gets testy about it.

 

Schuerholz has little respect for the people who blame him for the Braves not winning more World Series rings. He doesn't make too many excuses for it, and says that he believes they lost a few they should've won, but believes that the current playoff structure is a bit of a crapshoot and has issues with it because of the nature of the tournament. He mocks sportswriters, especially, for it by saying "I wish I were smart enough to construct a Wild Card team." And he says that he really, really wants to win another WS so that "these negative observers who don't truly understand baseball would be stopped from continuing to refer to the 'postseason flameouts' of the Braves." Just an FYI. I'm not saying that you don't know anything about baseball and I'm not trying to be a jerk. That's just what he says.

 

And by the way, you wouldn't have to ask Braves fans "What do you prefer? A ring or all these division titles?" because it was both. And they made the World Series through most of the Nineties. In good divisions and bad, at a time when the NL was typically pretty good. When a team one the WS who'd come from their division but weren't good enough to be anywhere near his team in the regular season. In two divisions and three. All from the division. And they came oh-so-close so many times. We live in a world that prefers the 85 Bears for winning it all and gives no credit to the Buffalo Bills for making it four straight times. That's why Mike Ditka and Kenny Williams are more valued than, say, John Schuerholz and Bill Belichick.

 

The truth is that KW isn't even a top-ten GM and he might be an upper bottom fifteen GM. I think DA brings up great points about him. Me? I'm not impressed by his being able to break, for one season with a variety of breaks and reasons, the 87 year drought, as he doesn't do anything particularly well, IMO, but we all know how I feel about Kenny.

[eickevinmorris]

Fire KW and hire DePodesta. Problems solved.

[greg775]

I think next year is the "fire" year, though I would vote for firing Walker because of this year's horrible offense.

I could see firing Cooper also because of the bullpen mess.

 

But really next year is the year I'd start really assessing Ozzie and KW.

It appears the team quit on Ozzie. KW made some horrible horrible moves this past year and a half.

If the Sox stink again next year after all the moves KW makes this offseason, then I'd think KW could be axed.

If the team shows no spark next year Oz as well.

 

That said ... it appears Reinsdorf will fire neither. He appears to be loyal to the guys who brought him a WS and I can't argue with that.

It's nice to see some loyalty. I mean these guys were all dumping champagne over their heads just 2 years ago.

I'm sure as boss, Jerry figures they couldn't be genuises just two years ago and suddenly know nothing about baseball.

[NorthSideSox72]

1. A General Manager cannot win a world series. Can't be done. A General Manager can put the most talented team on the fields possible, within his/her budget constraints. In other words, they can field the most competitive team possible. That TEAM wins a World Series.

 

2. Just to be clear - I am not saying KW gets to stay as a reward for 2005, or as a reward for his success. Not at all. I am saying that his success thus far means that he is that much more likely to succeed in the future. Therefore, firing him after one bad year is short-sighted and very likely to result in the situation being worse.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

What do you say, Northside, to the points raised by Dick Allen about the overall mediocrity of KW's teams', especially relative to the division? Especially as it counters your points about KW's "past success."

[NorthSideSox72]

What do you say, Northside, to the points raised by Dick Allen about the overall mediocrity of KW's teams', especially relative to the division? Especially as it counters your points about KW's "past success."

I think there is some subjectivity. But I stand by my original statement - KW is among the better GM's. Not the best probably, but top quarter or so, if I had to take a flier. DA sees mediocrity. I see a GM who fit my definition of a winning GM as stated earlier - his teams were competitive, even late in the season, most years under his command. That, to me, is the best mark of a good GM.

 

I do understand DA's points about mediocrity in the final results (not making the playoffs). But I put that more on the shoulders of the players and coaches. Just my perspective on the way the game works.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

I think there is some subjectivity. But I stand by my original statement - KW is among the better GM's. Not the best probably, but top quarter or so, if I had to take a flier. DA sees mediocrity. I see a GM who fit my definition of a winning GM as stated earlier - his teams were competitive, even late in the season, most years under his command. That, to me, is the best mark of a good GM.

 

I do understand DA's points about mediocrity in the final results (not making the playoffs). But I put that more on the shoulders of the players and coaches. Just my perspective on the way the game works.

 

His points and mine about mediocrity "in the final results" isn't just about not making the playoffs it's about their not-much-better-than-average record over his tenure, even when they were "competitive" in a crap division against other abysmal teams, and our failure to cinch it up a few more times is especially embarrassing considering The Comedy Central. Personally, I don't think he's a top ten GM so he isn't even top third to me, but I suppose you see something I don't in those years. Thanks for the honest answers, though, even if I think you're wrong as can be.

[StrangeSox]

Isnt the goal of playing the MLB to win a ring? I didnt know that also-ran was the goal.

 

It sounds obvious, but you have to make the playoffs to win a ring. There's something to be said about sitting home in October 6 out of 7 years.

Edited August 29, 2007 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

As I read my last post, I suppose I should explain why I think a GM doesn't win a world series, since I seem to be alone in that view...

 

A GM builds a roster of players. These players are, despite what some seem to think, human beings. Because of that, there is not mathematical formula, no pure science that tells anyone exactly what a player will do in the future. I think we can all agree on that. Sabermetrics is a system - but even it is not 100% reliable. No such thing in the world of human behavior. So take all that, and then realize that assembling a roster is part math, part science, part psychology, part finance, and part art. That's uncontrollable dynamics, from the GM's perspective.

 

Here is another uncontrollable for a GM - he/she doesn't play. That means his relationship to winning and losing is indirect.

 

Oh, and one more factor - baseball involves some degree of randomness. Sometimes a lot of it.

 

So what this all means is... if a GM is good at all the math, science, psychology, finance and art... then they will field teams that are in the vicinity of the best teams, most years. Some years there may be titles - others not. But that final push is on the field of play - not in the GM's hands. Therefore, I see the GM's role as putting competitive teams on the field, and the players/coaches role as executing on the field.

 

Is that more clear, GP?

 

[NorthSideSox72]

His points and mine about mediocrity "in the final results" isn't just about not making the playoffs it's about their not-much-better-than-average record over his tenure, even when they were "competitive" in a crap division against other abysmal teams, and our failure to cinch it up a few more times is especially embarrassing considering The Comedy Central. Personally, I don't think he's a top ten GM so he isn't even top third to me, but I suppose you see something I don't in those years. Thanks for the honest answers, though, even if I think you're wrong as can be.

The "Comedy Central" was not easy throughout KW's time. Maybe in the few years you've been following, but not the entire stint. Some years have been tough - others not. The whole weak division / strong division thing tends to even out over a number of years. Doesn't last long.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

As I read my last post, I suppose I should explain why I think a GM doesn't win a world series, since I seem to be alone in that view...

 

A GM builds a roster of players. These players are, despite what some seem to think, human beings. Because of that, there is not mathematical formula, no pure science that tells anyone exactly what a player will do in the future. I think we can all agree on that. Sabermetrics is a system - but even it is not 100% reliable. No such thing in the world of human behavior. So take all that, and then realize that assembling a roster is part math, part science, part psychology, part finance, and part art. That's uncontrollable dynamics, from the GM's perspective.

 

Here is another uncontrollable for a GM - he/she doesn't play. That means his relationship to winning and losing is indirect.

 

Oh, and one more factor - baseball involves some degree of randomness. Sometimes a lot of it.

 

So what this all means is... if a GM is good at all the math, science, psychology, finance and art... then they will field teams that are in the vicinity of the best teams, most years. Some years there may be titles - others not. But that final push is on the field of play - not in the GM's hands. Therefore, I see the GM's role as putting competitive teams on the field, and the players/coaches role as executing on the field.

 

Is that more clear, GP?

 

I know someone just like that. I should say: I don't necessarily hold KW to Schuerholz. Nobody should be judged against John Schuerholz unequivocally. But I can think of ten GMs who are, in my view, better than KW:

 

Jocketty

Towers

Gillick

Minaya

Beinfest

Beane

Ryan

Cashman

Moore

Stoneman

Epstein

Shapiro

Schuerholz

 

I'd take any of these guys over KW, WS ring or not.

 

You know, it's an old embarrassment, but when you trade for the wrong player with the same name, it shows you don't do your homework. Maybe he's gotten better since then, you say, or "He has gotten better!" but I'd point you to Day's slider, Gavin Floyd and Nick Masset. Adkins. Plenty have pointed out how bad his original plan was for 2005, DA most explicitly, and other than that year and 06, he hasn't been that good. And considering he brought back the same team that died in the second half, and didn't do anything to upgrade it early in the season or prepare for next year with players who should go, I don't see how he's been good as the decision maker behind trades, prospect analysis and scouting. Maybe next year you'll agree with me. Maybe htis offseason he'll masterfully make trades and sign some good free agents and we'll be gravy. But I doubt it, and when things stay sour, I won't be surprised.

[Gregory Pratt]

The "Comedy Central" was not easy throughout KW's time. Maybe in the few years you've been following, but not the entire stint. Some years have been tough - others not. The whole weak division / strong division thing tends to even out over a number of years. Doesn't last long.

 

It was definitely easy for the early years of his stint. No powerhouses from 02-04, that's for sure.

[WCSox]

I know someone just like that. I should say: I don't necessarily hold KW to Schuerholz. Nobody should be judged against John Schuerholz unequivocally. But I can think of ten GMs who are, in my view, better than KW:

 

Jocketty

Towers

Gillick

Minaya

Beinfest

Beane

Ryan

Cashman

Moore

Stoneman

Epstein

Shapiro

Schuerholz

 

I'd take any of these guys over KW, WS ring or not.

 

What makes Omar Minaya a good GM? The fact that he took over a franchise with some good young players and was allowed to spend all that he wanted in free agency? Or perhaps over-paying for a declining and injury-prone Pedro? And Pat Gillick... the guy who paid $10 million for Freddy Garcia last winter and has yet to do anything in the post-season with a talented Phillies team? LOL!

 

I'll take KW and the ring over Minaya, Gillick, Beane, and Shapiro. The latter two are probably better GMs than Kenny, but I care about championships. Does Billy Beane have a trophy case for all of his Sabermetrics Championships?

Edited August 29, 2007 by WCSox

[fathom]

Pratt....how come you never mention that the LaRoche for Gonzalez trade killed the Braves this year? Gonzalez was a non-factor due to the injury, and because the lack of production they were getting from Thorman at 1b, they had to trade a huge package to get Teixeira. LaRoche hasn't been great this year, but I never understood why they were so eager to get rid of him.

[NorthSideSox72]

His points and mine about mediocrity "in the final results" isn't just about not making the playoffs it's about their not-much-better-than-average record over his tenure, even when they were "competitive" in a crap division against other abysmal teams, and our failure to cinch it up a few more times is especially embarrassing considering The Comedy Central. Personally, I don't think he's a top ten GM so he isn't even top third to me, but I suppose you see something I don't in those years. Thanks for the honest answers, though, even if I think you're wrong as can be.

 

Dude, you're killing me. That right there sums up why we see things differently. You think I'm wrong... I don't think anyone is wrong. Because baseball doesn't work that way. There is no magic formula, some secret that only a select few know. If there was, baseball would be boring as hell. Instead, its a game of chance and odds, and everything else I mentioned.

 

Want an analogy? Put together a lineup of random MLB players. Let's say the lineup contains both A-Rod and Gustavo Molina (stop laughing). On any given day, Molina might go 3-for-4 and knock in the winning run, while A-Rod gets the golden sombrero. So do we fire A-Rod? Or do we know that 5 games out of 7, he'll do better than Molina. Kind of like 5 years out of 7, KW put teams out there that were in the hunt into the second half, which by nature means the Sox were among the top third of teams competitively. Therefore, KW is better than your average GM.

 

So, I say keep him.

 

If this last analogy doesn't work for anyone, then I give up.

 

[winninguglyin83]

gotta be ozzie.

 

team has quit on him.

 

that's simply unacceptable.

 

hasn't found a way to win with these guys.

 

And i'm sure his chatter has gotten really stale in the clubhouse.

 

 

[Gregory Pratt]

What makes Omar Minaya a good GM? The fact that he took over a franchise with some good young players and was allowed to spend all that he wanted in free agency? Or perhaps over-paying for a declining and injury-prone Pedro? And Pat Gillick... the guy who paid $10 million for Freddy Garcia last winter and has yet to do anything in the post-season with a talented Phillies team? LOL!

 

I'll take KW and the ring over Minaya, Gillick, Beane, and Shapiro. The latter two are probably better GMs than Kenny, but I care about championships. Does Billy Beane have a trophy case for all of his Sabermetrics Championships?

 

Right, it's KW's responsibility for us winning but Beane and Shapiro for them losing.

 

Gillick has a longer track record of success than KW and is a better GM. I'm not going to spend time arguing over whether or not Minaya is better than KW. Most people would tell you so. Ask around somewhere else and see what you get.

[Gregory Pratt]

Pratt....how come you never mention that the LaRoche for Gonzalez trade killed the Braves this year? Gonzalez was a non-factor due to the injury, and because the lack of production they were getting from Thorman at 1b, they had to trade a huge package to get Teixeira. LaRoche hasn't been great this year, but I never understood why they were so eager to get rid of him.

 

Uh, because Mike Gonzalez is very good and they couldn't really have foreseen his injury and they wanted to build up the bullpen. It wasn't a bad move at all especially since they got Lillibridge. But no, LaRoche wouldn't have made a big difference at first this year. He hasn't been that good at all. That trade "killed the Braves"? Give me a break.

[Gregory Pratt]

What makes Omar Minaya a good GM? The fact that he took over a franchise with some good young players and was allowed to spend all that he wanted in free agency? Or perhaps over-paying for a declining and injury-prone Pedro? And Pat Gillick... the guy who paid $10 million for Freddy Garcia last winter and has yet to do anything in the post-season with a talented Phillies team? LOL!

 

I'll take KW and the ring over Minaya, Gillick, Beane, and Shapiro. The latter two are probably better GMs than Kenny, but I care about championships. Does Billy Beane have a trophy case for all of his Sabermetrics Championships?

 

I love how you go on about the ring but ignore Gillick's, too.