Who would you like to see fired the most?

[NorthSideSox72]

Those numbers are misleading. Except for 2005 which nobody can take away from him, he's about right there despite having 38 games a year against DET and KC from 2001-2004, arguably the worst teams in the majors. How does KW's rank in payroll in the AL central compare to the result? I'm sure it will be a little different.

So far, I've provided W-L in baseball as a measure... putting competitive teams on the fields as a measure... and world championships as a measure. In all three areas, KW does better than the majority of GM's.

 

And what responses have there been? "Those numbers are misleading." Why? "You are as wrong as can be." Any reason why?

 

Seriously. This season is a disaster, and KW should take a significant chunk of the responsibility for it. Also, he is NOT the best in the game. But if you think KW is somehow a substandard GM (which the majority here seem to), then you are simply choosing to be in denial of the facts, and of the nature of the game.

 

Can anyone provide any actual information other than this one lousy season, that shows that KW is worse than the majority of GM's?

 

[Dick Allen]

So far, I've provided W-L in baseball as a measure... putting competitive teams on the fields as a measure... and world championships as a measure. In all three areas, KW does better than the majority of GM's.

 

And what responses have there been? "Those numbers are misleading." Why? "You are as wrong as can be." Any reason why?

 

Seriously. This season is a disaster, and KW should take a significant chunk of the responsibility for it. Also, he is NOT the best in the game. But if you think KW is somehow a substandard GM (which the majority here seem to), then you are simply choosing to be in denial of the facts, and of the nature of the game.

 

Can anyone provide any actual information other than this one lousy season, that shows that KW is worse than the majority of GM's?

Yes because you get measured by how you do in the division. The schedule is unbalanced. Would St. Louis have a championship in 2006 if its W-L record were measured by baseball as a whole? For the first 3 years of Kenny's reign he had the second highest payroll in the AL Central and finished second all 3 times. In the last 4, all under Ozzie, the White Sox have by far the highest payroll in the AL Central. He has finished 2nd, 1st, 3rd, and now 5th. So if you do it by your method in the AL central he has finished where he should have finished 4 years and below where he should have finished 3 years. That is below average. Of course that is a little misleading as well. He certainly isn't the worst GM in baseball, but to say he's in the top 5, or go overboard like Hawk and call him the best, based on 1 season out of 7 isn't right. Roland Hemond's team won 99 games in 1983, they just didn't win in the playoffs. Close but no win. Roland was gone 2 years later. Its a very similar situation. The 2 year records are pretty close to the same, and the farm system is questionable at best. KW needs to be on a short leash. I can only hope he is truly humbled by this season, because his ego has become as big as some of his mistakes.

[iamshack]

Someone dig out the Chuck Norris thread about Kenny....it seemed like just yesterday we were giggling about what a badass GM he was.

 

It just shocks me that people can look back at everything in hindsight, post hoc, and claim that KW should be fired. As if we all saw this terrible season coming. As if all his moves were immediately thought to be terrible. I certainly agree that he must be accountable for this debacle, but WHY DOES EVERYONE REFUSE TO HOLD THE PLAYERS ACCOUNTABLE?!? At some point, the players have to get the job done, and many, so many of ours just haven't gotten the job done this season. Now we can all point to certain guys and say with reasonable certainty that KW should have anticipated some injuries or drop offs or whatever. But to predict that all of these guys would be this poor? Come on now. That's hinsight 20/20 and pure bs.

 

Not sure how many of you heard the JR interview the other morning, but he mentioned that even Jim Leyland mentioned to him early this season that we would have the best bullpen in the division. Not all of this was forseeable, folks. Not even close...

[hitlesswonder]

While I'm no fan, winning a championship does qualify him for a lifetime of at least mediocre.

When I started that post I meant to type "anything more than mediocre", which is more accurate. Should probably edit that....

[hitlesswonder]

I suppose the argument is there, would you rather a Terry Ryan who's much better at building a system but hasn't had major success, or a Kenny Williams who's more aggressive and has won a world series, but can get into trouble sometimes with his moves that he's made?

 

Or a Mark Shapiro as well, who's starting to have some success with the Indians now.

To me, winning a World Series has a huge amount of luck involved. I think making the playoffs is the measure of a GM. To say that Ryan hasn't had major success is as silly as me writing that KW isn't even mediocre (I'm going to go edit that now....).

[29andPoplar]

If Kenny had his way we would've traded Big Jon for Erstand and perhaps wouldn't have won the World Series so I certainly don't think he gets much credit.

I think every team in baseball establishes a budget for player personnel but I don't see how you can say that a GM who can't exceed a $70 million payroll and a GM who can't exceed a $40 million payroll can just as easily put a winner on the field.

I guess the Contreras move would look mighty good for Kenny if he hadn't resigned him to that ridiculous extension. At the time he made the move, I thought it looked crazy. The market was severely depressed and instead of getting out from under Loaiza's contract and using the $ freed up to sign a free agent, Kenny took on a huge contract that was on the verge of becoming unmovable. I'll give Kenny the benefit of the doubt that he had good insight to realize that Contreras could be fixed and realized the market would bounce back.

 

The Garcia deal certainly worked out well also but I think Kenny was a little bit lucky that Freddy had one of his best seasons in '05 and that Reed flamed out so badly. Maybe Kenny had great scouting insight on Reed or wisely raised an eye brow given how much of his minor league success was driven by batting average. It's hard to say exactly what the thought process was but it's hard for me to give Kenny tons of credit when his public rationale for trading elite prospects is generally "1917" and his comments about Young basically indicated that he realized the odds were that some of them would turn into stars. I guess this is where everyone jumps on me screaming about how that move won us a World Series but to me the thought process is more important than the results. Maybe we wouldn't have won a World Series without Geoff Blum, but I don't think that makes it one of the 10 most brilliant trades of all time. Obviously there are things that are out of your control - players slack off, players get injured, players become free agents, players age - but part of me thinks the fact that two years after we won we're practically in the cellar suggests that Kenny's brilliance wasn't responsible for assembling an awesome collection of talent and/or he's performed terribly ever since we won (as pleased as I am to have won the Series, I lean more towards the former).

 

Also, I think it's important to emphasize that Kenny didn't just start making poor moves or having a lack of success in 2007. We've had several mediocre seasons under his tenure and some of the groundwork for this season's failure (Contreras' extension, neglect of the farm system, depletion of the farm system) occurred prior to this past off-season. I understand that if you think Kenny did a great job from 2001-2006 - and Reinsdorf probably does - then it would be ridiculous to can him for one bad season. Personally, I've just had complaints pretty much since day one and don't see too many opportunities to salvage things in the near future.

 

The baseball world is full of woulda, coulda, shoulda. When I posted my comment about Garland, I just knew someone would respond with the "well he almost traded him to Anahiem" comment. This is reality, not what ifs. I can respond to your comment by saying "what if" that trade went thru and Williams turned around and used those assets to get something else, something better. See, the "he almost traded Garland" argument doesn't wash because no one knows what would've happened afterwards.

 

To further the "what if" game on the other side of the coin, are you aware of the trade offers Williams and Hahn turned down? I'm sure there have been many, many of which would've (there's that word again) been bad for the franchise. None of us know what they've turned down, we just read rumors which may or may not be truthful. To pinch an old phrase Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make.

 

Again, this entire argument can be spun 100 times over, depending on what side of the fence you're on. Many of you have the impression Williams is arrogant, have you met him personally, have you interacted with him, or is this merely an impression you've picked up by reading message boards and newspapers. For what it's worth I have met him, probably a dozen times, and have had the pleasure of interacting with him several times. He is engaging, quick to give credit to others, is often self depreciating, with an obvious competitive streak. And by all accounts has a very strong work ethic. I don't see arrogant at all, I see confidence and a competitive streak which is what I want for my team's GM. Rick Hahn is the same way. See, the whole perception thing can be spun 100 ways too.

 

Lastly ... "the thought process is worth more than the results" ???? No thanks, I'll take results. We're not getting the results this year, in past years the team has been competitive for the most part. How about this, those who want them fired, who do you hire in their place and why? Please give specifics. Not just "let's hire Steve Stone, ummm, he's a smart guy and knows the game".

Edited August 29, 2007 by 29andPoplar

[iamshack]

To me, winning a World Series has a huge amount of luck involved. I think making the playoffs is the measure of a GM. To say that Ryan hasn't had major success is as silly as me writing that KW isn't even mediocre (I'm going to go edit that now....).

 

Everything about baseball has a huge amount of luck involved. Why would "making the playoffs" be the measure of a GM, but not winning a World Series? Isn't the ultimate goal to win the whole thing? I don't doubt that making the playoffs would be a solid business goal, but in terms of the game, the ultimate goal is to win the World Series. Why that should not be a measure of a GM seems foolish to me...

[29andPoplar]

To me, winning a World Series has a huge amount of luck involved. I think making the playoffs is the measure of a GM. To say that Ryan hasn't had major success is as silly as me writing that KW isn't even mediocre (I'm going to go edit that now....).

 

Ryan is an excellent GM. His downfall is his continued non-aggressiveness at the deadlines. Maybe that means he has a big ego, maybe that means he's stubborn? Who knows, it's all how people choose to spin it.

[hitlesswonder]

Everything about baseball has a huge amount of luck involved. Why would "making the playoffs" be the measure of a GM, but not winning a World Series? Isn't the ultimate goal to win the whole thing? I don't doubt that making the playoffs would be a solid business goal, but in terms of the game, the ultimate goal is to win the World Series. Why that should not be a measure of a GM seems foolish to me...

I think it's a sample size argument. Excellent teams can have a stretch of 7 games when they play terribly. But over 162 games, the strongest teams and organizations should be the ones that make the playoffs -- for the most part. I think luck has less influence over the larger stretch of games. I think a GM that gives his team the more shots to win the series, i.e. one that makes the playoffs more often, is better than a guy that has given his team one shot and won it on that one try.

[hitlesswonder]

Ryan is an excellent GM. His downfall is his continued non-aggressiveness at the deadlines. Maybe that means he has a big ego, maybe that means he's stubborn? Who knows, it's all how people choose to spin it.

I agree with that. I think the budget situation in Minnesota has made him very, very conservative with regard to trading prospects. I think he feels that he can't afford to part with cheap talent without significantly risking the future of the team, and who knows if the Twins owner would even shell out a few extra million for a mid-season pickup.

[Dick Allen]

Ryan is an excellent GM. His downfall is his continued non-aggressiveness at the deadlines. Maybe that means he has a big ego, maybe that means he's stubborn? Who knows, it's all how people choose to spin it.

Maybe its just that he doesn't want to overpay for garbage. He can't pick up a lot of money because although Pohlad may be the richest owner in baseball, he's also the cheapest. Their payroll used to be lower than their revenue sharing check. KW wanted to be aggressive at the deadline in 2005 and all he could do was Geoff Blum. That worked out fine, although Blum contributed just about nothing during the regular season.

[RockRaines]

once again, whats with all this "measured by finish place" etc etc. He has a ring. Thats the ultimate goal in professional sports. I would gladly trade in 10 division titles for one World Series ring.

[Steff]

once again, whats with all this "measured by finish place" etc etc. He has a ring. Thats the ultimate goal in professional sports. I would gladly trade in 10 division titles for one World Series ring.

 

 

As those of us "old folks" understand, and have done.

 

 

[29andPoplar]

Maybe its just that he doesn't want to overpay for garbage.

Could be.

 

Then again, maybe he just doesn't quite have the skill to pull the trigger on the right trade to get his team over the hump and win it all.

 

Again, it all depends how one wants to spin this.

 

[Dick Allen]

once again, whats with all this "measured by finish place" etc etc. He has a ring. Thats the ultimate goal in professional sports. I would gladly trade in 10 division titles for one World Series ring.

Considering the White Sox don't have 10 divisional titles in their history and have 3 WS wins, it wouldn't be a good trade.

[RockRaines]

Considering the White Sox don't have 10 divisional titles in their history and have 3 WS wins, it wouldn't be a good trade.

Even easier, I will trade a handful of division titles for the WS ring. So its an even better deal.

[WCSox]

I love how you go on about the ring but ignore Gillick's, too.

 

I love you how compare the track record of a guy who's been in the business about 20 years longer than KW to what KW has done in his first 6+ years as a GM.

 

And I love how you're trying to convince me that Omar Minaya's a better GM than Kenny because he's done... um... pretty much nothing with either the Expos or Mets. And that's pretty sad, because I think that Kenny's maybe an above-average GM at best.

 

Outside of your unhealthy fascination with Schuerholz, I don't really understand why you really care where KW ranks among baseball's other GMs. The goal is to win in October, not to have the strongest farm system or even to win 90+ games every year and go one-and-out in the playoffs. I don't think that any Sox fan with more than two functioning brain cells would trade what Kenny did for their team for what, say, Larry Himes did.

Edited August 29, 2007 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

I love you how compare the track record of a guy who's been in the business about 20 years longer than KW to what KW has done in his first 6+ years as a GM.

 

And I love how you're trying to convince me that Omar Minaya's a better GM than Kenny because he's done... um... pretty much nothing with either the Expos or Mets. And that's pretty sad, because I think that Kenny's maybe an above-average GM at best.

 

Outside of your unhealthy fascination with Schuerholz, I don't really understand why you really care where KW ranks among baseball's other GMs. The goal is to win in October, not to have the strongest farm system or even to win 90+ games every year and go one-and-out in the playoffs. I don't think that any Sox fan with more than two functioning brain cells would trade what Kenny did for their team for what, say, Larry Himes did.

 

I don't think any Sox fans here have said, "I'll trade what KW has done for what Himes has done." But why let that get in the way of your strawman? I love the argument you and Northside have put up: "It's the young people that don't value KW." DA isn't young. "It's the ring! Who cares about the rest? it's the ring! Screw Billy Beane." What about Gillick? "Oh, he been in the game so long, oh, but he's not good. Not like KW." Further: I didn't try to convince you that Minaya is better than KW. I said, "He's on my list of better GMs, and most people would agree." And then you guys say, "A GM does nothing. It's the players!" But with Beane? "No, no, he sucks, what's it all gotten him? Nothing!"

 

Sorry, KW isn't very good, especially not compared to the other GMs on the list I provided earlier. And now we're just going around in circles with nonsense about rings, and when someone confronts you with that, you say, 'Well, Gillick traded for Sweaty Freddy, so bleh! Convince me otherwise!" As if KW has never made a bad trade and in fact has so many terrible, terrible trades under his belt that he should be embarrassed, especially that trade for the wrong player.

 

And why do I care about what KW is compared to other GMs? It's important to the discussion that he isn't that good, and there are so many better men out there than him who could lead us, from the GM offices all over baseball to guys who need work (the Dodgers guy, Podesta, comes to mind).

 

If KW is in charge for the future, we're going to have problems consistently. And what kind of person says, "The goal is to win in October, not to have the strongest farm system or even to win 90+ games every year and go one-and-out in the playoffs." as if it means much to this discussion? It all comes back to being able to supplement your team with internal talent.

 

Kenny Williams is closer to Bill Bavasi than Terry Ryan, that's for sure.

 

Of course, if the Cubs win the World Series next year, Hendry will forever be better than GMs who have never won it like that hack in Oakland, eh? Give me a break. Your arguments are getting worse and worse.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[hammerhead johnson]

As I read my last post, I suppose I should explain why I think a GM doesn't win a world series, since I seem to be alone in that view...

 

Yes, you are most definitely alone in that view. The man with the blueprints always gets the most credit. There are no exceptions.

[StrangeSox]

once again, whats with all this "measured by finish place" etc etc. He has a ring. Thats the ultimate goal in professional sports. I would gladly trade in 10 division titles for one World Series ring.

 

The goal is to win a ring every year, not once in a career. 2005 was great. Let's do it again. KW's lack of success outside of 2005 isn't a indicator that we will any time soon.

[knightni]

The guy in charge of minor league development.

 

...

 

 

Oh wait.

 

 

He's already gone.

 

 

KW gets 3 years more grace in my mind for 2005.

 

 

Fix it by 2010 or he should be gone.

[iamshack]

I don't think any Sox fans here have said, "I'll trade what KW has done for what Himes has done." But why let that get in the way of your strawman? I love the argument you and Northside have put up: "It's the young people that don't value KW." DA isn't young. "It's the ring! Who cares about the rest? it's the ring! Screw Billy Beane." What about Gillick? "Oh, he been in the game so long, oh, but he's not good. Not like KW." Further: I didn't try to convince you that Minaya is better than KW. I said, "He's on my list of better GMs, and most people would agree." And then you guys say, "A GM does nothing. It's the players!" But with Beane? "No, no, he sucks, what's it all gotten him? Nothing!"

 

Sorry, KW isn't very good, especially not compared to the other GMs on the list I provided earlier. And now we're just going around in circles with nonsense about rings, and when someone confronts you with that, you say, 'Well, Gillick traded for Sweaty Freddy, so bleh! Convince me otherwise!" As if KW has never made a bad trade and in fact has so many terrible, terrible trades under his belt that he should be embarrassed, especially that trade for the wrong player.

 

And why do I care about what KW is compared to other GMs? It's important to the discussion that he isn't that good, and there are so many better men out there than him who could lead us, from the GM offices all over baseball to guys who need work (the Dodgers guy, Podesta, comes to mind).

 

If KW is in charge for the future, we're going to have problems consistently. And what kind of person says, "The goal is to win in October, not to have the strongest farm system or even to win 90+ games every year and go one-and-out in the playoffs." as if it means much to this discussion? It all comes back to being able to supplement your team with internal talent.

 

Kenny Williams is closer to Bill Bavasi than Terry Ryan, that's for sure.

 

Of course, if the Cubs win the World Series next year, Hendry will forever be better than GMs who have never won it like that hack in Oakland, eh? Give me a break. Your arguments are getting worse and worse.

 

The problem with your argument is that you are premising everything on the idea that there is some set criterion by which to judge a GM. There really are not. One with every team is to win a World Series, but certainly that is weighed more or less depending on the individual job. That criteria is weighed more heavily with say, the Yankees or Mets job than the Pirates or Devil Ray job. Certainly building a farm system is important for all teams, but obviously it is more important for some teams than others. It also depends upon the general landscape of the free agent marketplace. Currently, building a farm system is far more important than it has been in probably thirty years. However, as recently as 5-6 years ago, it really meant far less to teams that could support an above-average payroll. Suddenly now, that the free agency market has exploded again it is very important. But you're judging him as if that has been the number one priority all along. Certainly you will argue he should have anticipated that, however.

 

In my mind, for this team, the goal is to try to win championships. I don't care if Kenny trades every one of our prospects away if it results in championships. Granted, doing so would likely not be wise, but I don't see the point in bemoaning the trading of certain prospects or the overall strength of the farm system if Kenny proves he can get the job done in other fashions. There is more than one way to reach the end goal, and I don't particularly care which one he chooses. But to judge him as a poor GM because he hasn't taken the particular route which is currently in vogue is to not see the forest for the trees. Especially when he has proven he could reach the end goal through other means.

 

 

 

[WCSox]

What about Gillick? "Oh, he been in the game so long, oh, but he's not good.

 

You saying that Gillick is "better" than Kenny Williams is like saying that Tony LaRussa is a better manager than Ozzie. How long did it take Gillick and LaRussa to encounter any significant success? And what has Gillick done over the past 10 years, besides fail to get the Phillies to the playoffs and ruin Seattle's farm system? It might be more accurate to say that KW has not achieved the success that Gillick did in Toronto 15 or so years ago. And it would be equally-accurate to say that Gillick has not achieved the success that Kenny has in this century.

 

Not like KW." Further: I didn't try to convince you that Minaya is better than KW. I said, "He's on my list of better GMs, and most people would agree.

 

Since you obviously don't remember, this is what you said...

 

But I can think of ten thirteen [edited for accuracy] GMs who are, in my view, better than KW:

 

Jocketty

Towers

Gillick

Minaya

Beinfest

Beane

Ryan

Cashman

Moore

Stoneman

Epstein

Shapiro

Schuerholz

 

I'd take any of these guys over KW, WS ring or not.

 

So, Minaya isn't a better GM than Kenny, but he's on your list of "better GMs than Kenny." Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Minaya has accomplished crap, even when being allowed to spend like a madman on the FA market. So I don't know what you're basing your argument on, other than a blatant dislike for KW.

 

Your arguments are getting worse and worse.

 

You're right, I can't match your "Omar Minaya logic."

Edited August 29, 2007 by WCSox

[Soxbadger]

I guess to me its plain and simple, black and white. Either you won the World Series, or you didnt. That is the goal of a GM, that is the goal of a baseball franchise (unless you want to say its a business and then the goal is to make money and so far no one is even arguing about how KW is one of the most successful Sox GM's in terms of getting fans back in the park since 1994, raising revenue, and being able to spend more money on the team).

 

But lets say that baseball is about winning. When you play you can do 1 of 2 things, win or lose. You cant "play really hard but come up short" thats losing. I dont care how you slice it, I dont care what you say, 10 years of divisions with no World Series is worthless, its a whole bunch of losing.

 

So I ask the Gregory Pratt's of the world, how many on your list have won a world series. Because that is really the only measuring stick, sure Beane may be a great GM, he may have talent skills, etc. But until he wins a World Series he is nothing more than a guy who can put together a successful regular season team. He doesnt have the money to spend, well thats his fault. Hes the gm he should be talking to his owner about getting more money, or he should go some where else. If hes so great why is he still in Oakland?

 

The answer is simple, in Oakland the expectations are much lower than a NY, Boston, etc. Just putting on a good show is enough to keep you there forever. Its comparing apples to oranges, Beane is under no pressure to "win today" he never has to make a bad trade to try and make the playoffs that year, because if he doesnt there wont be a bunch of fans who are calling for him to be fired 2 years after a WS or 1 year after winning 90 games and then missing the playoffs.

 

So its easy to say the grass is greener, but who here would be happy with what Beane has done? Who here would trade the A's under Beane for the Sox under KW?

 

I know I wouldnt, I wouldnt for 1 second. Playoffs come and go, the memories fade. I can remember seeing the Blue Jays-Sox, a Sox team that was one of the best ever, but just couldnt win in the playoffs. The 2000 playoffs with the Mariners, etc etc. They all leave bitter tastes in your mouth, I dont remember after the Sox lost to the Blue Jaysthinking "Well atleast the Sox won the division".

 

I remember thinking "This sucks, the Sox could have won the World Series this year, who knows when the next time they may get this chance, who knows if I will ever live to see a White Sox world series."

 

Maybe it would be different if in the last 100 years the White Sox averaged a World Series appearance every 10 years, even if maybe they won 1 every 20. But look at the past, there are plenty of Sox fans who never saw 1 World Series game, who never saw 1 World Series game victory.

 

Let alone being able to watch the White Sox win the world series, being able to go to a parade for the White Sox winning the World Series.

 

Those are memories that no amount of division championships can replace, it just is not comparable.

 

So as a fan I judge the team, the coaches, the players, the GM, by one simple thing, the ultimate success. KW won a world series less than 3 seasons ago, and has hit a bump in the road. Every one does, everyone who shoots for the top prize eventually will get burned at some point.

 

But I want the guy who shoots for everything, who goes for the gold. Because guys like Beane, they are great, they are good, but they are happy with second place, with putting on a good show. And thats not me, second place is the first loser, and honestly there is no difference between 2nd and last, except a whole bunch of excuses.

 

I know that the Sox organization feels the same way as me, because they are filled with people who have suffered like me.

 

I dont have any second favorite teams like the Braves or A's who I can conveniently follow when the Sox arent doing well. For me its the Sox or nothing, and right now its a bad year. But ya know what, I dont mind, I dont mind watching young guys, I dont mind some times having to take the lumps.

 

Because I have confidence that a guy like KW is suffering right now. He isnt sitting around smiling writing a book like Billy Beane telling the world how great he is. Hes working to win next year, my feeling is probably no one is more upset/pissed about this year than KW himself, and thats the type of GM I want.

 

I dont want a guy like Beane who is happy with 2nd.

[WCSox]

But ya know what, I dont mind, I dont mind watching young guys, I dont mind some times having to take the lumps.

 

Because I have confidence that a guy like KW is suffering right now. He isnt sitting around smiling writing a book like Billy Beane telling the world how great he is.