Who would you like to see fired the most?

[Gregory Pratt]

I agree completely, your points were made very well. I also think they were countered exceptionally well.

 

Bottom line I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's minds here. It is pretty apparant where everyone stands and hopefully a re-hash doesn't happen every day like some topics do.

 

To be sure, I disagree, but the rest is right.

 

"KW builds good teams"

KW mediocre teams that lost the Comedy Central time after time

"KW keeps us "in the hunt"

KW lost the hunt to a bunch of dying dogs

"KW is shrewd and aggressive"

KW thinks terrible prospects are good prospects, trades for the wrong player and refuses to ever concede errors (Podsednik is one, the whole essential team being brought back after they were clearly AWFUL in the second half is another)

"KW doesn't play for them and what does he have to do with constructing the team, anyway?"

Everything.

"He has a ring. Ergo, elite."

Ay ay.

"And that's why you're speechless, because you know I'm right."

[Gregory Pratt]

Nice strawman argument, but that's not what I said.

Yep, with a blank check to sign as many free agents as he needed and the young talent that was drafted/developed by his predecessors. Minaya hasn't done anything that the average person on Soxtalk couldn't have done.

 

KW built this piece of crap with a hundred million payroll, so money isn't everything.

[WCSox]

KW built this piece of crap with a hundred million payroll, so money isn't everything.

 

Kenny built a championship team (a dominant one that won 99 games and went 11-1 in the playoffs) with a $70 million payroll (about $40 million less than what Minaya had to work with last year) via a series of smart, relatively low-cost trades (Garcia, Contreras, etc.) and FA signings (JD, Jenks, Tad, AJ, etc.). But that was AFTER he had to shed payroll by parting ways with a large portion of his offense (Maggs, Carlos). Minaya didn't have those financial constraints.

 

I'm in no way arguing that KW is a great GM or even a good one, but arguing that Minaya is BETTER than him (given the evidence, rather than personal prejudice) is just silly.

Edited August 29, 2007 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Yah. Disagreement.

[WCSox]

Yah. Disagreement.

 

Agreed with 29th that's it's silly to continue arguing.

 

[Soxbadger]

Your right you should leave the thread, you are starting to grasp for straws on your arguments. It was pretty clear my Beane remark was a joke, it was more to the point of, when YOU read their book, you annoint them gods. It doesnt seem odd to you that you have read the Braves and A's books and then you think that they are the 2 best GM's? Im sure I could write a story about how KW is the best gm in baseball, how he reinvented the wheel, etc etc, and use the 2005 season as the proof. Any one can write a story, so the question becomes, what has KW done that another GM of the "top 13" hasnt done to be considerd a good GM.

 

You point to Gillick, you say that KW saying Floyd was a top spect was a mistake, yet you completely dont say a word about the Garcia trade? That just completely shows bias, can you imagine if KW traded a former top 5 draft pick and a very promising lefty for a player that was injured. Who cost them millions? Can you imagine the threads on this board over that?

 

You point to the clerical error on Berry, and realyl who cares. Its not like the guy he missed out on became even a mlb player, it was insignificant.

 

The biggest thing you can call the Sox org on is drafting. They consistently blow first round picks. They do well in the later rounds, but they really have not drafted a stud in the top rounds for a long time (I mean guys like Thomas and Ventura are huge to draft). We will see what happens on the drafting front, right now prospects are getting really hyped and I think that is some what of a mistake. People are falling in love with "young and cheap" and its great, but unless you can draft it or sign it from outside the US, you just are not going to have a great farm system.

 

If anything the White Sox need to start to put more emphasis on latin american player development and trying to find guys to supplement the draft. People here were yelling for Porcello at $5mil, but I think the money would be better placed in Latin America setting up developmental facilities and beating other teams to the Jose Reyes of the world. The Sox have a latin manager, they should be taking advantage of this and trying to get talent.

 

Other than that, the White Sox have been pretty well run. And i hope that they are able to surprise some people next year.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Soxbadger

[Gregory Pratt]

Your right you should leave the thread, you are starting to grasp for straws on your arguments. It was pretty clear my Beane remark was a joke, it was more to the point of, when YOU read their book, you annoint them gods. It doesnt seem odd to you that you have read the Braves and A's books and then you think that they are the 2 best GM's? Im sure I could write a story about how KW is the best gm in baseball, how he reinvented the wheel, etc etc, and use the 2005 season as the proof. Any one can write a story, so the question becomes, what has KW done that another GM of the "top 13" hasnt done to be considerd a good GM.

 

I'm not grasping at straws. And actually I'm not a huge fan of Beane but he does good work, that's undeniable.

 

You point to Gillick, you say that KW saying Floyd was a top spect was a mistake, yet you completely dont say a word about the Garcia trade? That just completely shows bias, can you imagine if KW traded a former top 5 draft pick and a very promising lefty for a player that was injured. Who cost them millions? Can you imagine the threads on this board over that?

 

KW traded away the hitting version of Floyd: Borchard. And that was fine by me. And if KW made a mistake like Garcia, I could definitely forgive that. It's an understandable risk, especially with their position, and when you consider that most people think KW could've gotten more, you don't really see it as a huge error by Gillick. A mistake, sure, but nothing fatal.

 

You point to the clerical error on Berry, and realyl who cares. Its not like the guy he missed out on became even a mlb player, it was insignificant.

 

It is telling about the man and the way he works.

 

If anything the White Sox need to start to put more emphasis on latin american player development and trying to find guys to supplement the draft. People here were yelling for Porcello at $5mil, but I think the money would be better placed in Latin America setting up developmental facilities and beating other teams to the Jose Reyes of the world. The Sox have a latin manager, they should be taking advantage of this and trying to get talent.

 

Absolutely. I've been saying that for awhile, too, but Flash is the king of THAT realm.

 

Other than that, the White Sox have been pretty well run. And i hope that they are able to surprise some people next year.

 

Disagree. Agree, but don't believe.

[WCSox]

The biggest thing you can call the Sox org on is drafting. They consistently blow first round picks. They do well in the later rounds, but they really have not drafted a stud in the top rounds for a long time (I mean guys like Thomas and Ventura are huge to draft).

 

It's a lot easier to land studs like Frank, Robin, and Blackjack when you've sucked for several years on end ('86-'89) and are in the position to draft a few "can't-miss" prospects. The "problem" with the Sox is that they haven't had any of those 70-75-win years for a long time. If we had sucked like the Tigers and Twins have in the recent past, we may have had the opportunity to draft guys like Verlander and Mauer.

Edited August 29, 2007 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

If it was KW who shipped Gio and Gavin Floyd out somewhere to acquire Freddy Garcia, and what happened still happened, the KW fans would say Garcia throws 200 innings and wins 15 games every year, how could KW have foreseen what happened? They would have said getting rid of Floyd was no loss (I agree) and shipping a AA pitcher like Gio was a good gamble on a guy with Garcia's track record. Of course since KW is on the other side of the trade he is a genius as well. Read the article I posted about Rosenthal's interview with KW in spring training, just how pompous he was. The bullpen arms, how the White Sox don't care what others think, they have their own evaluation procedure. Now when it blows up one reason being KW forgot that you still have to throw an occassional strike at the major league level, we hear how no one could possibly have seen this coming. JR mentions Jim Leyland praising their bullpen. I thought others opinions didn't matter? I'll just say that I certainly don't think KW is the best GM, I don't think he's the worst. I do appreciate his agressiveness and his effort, but in business, which baseball is, results are what counts. If I had a say, he'd definitely would be put on notice that the lackluster play, and the losing will not be tolerated any more. He has been given the resources to succeed. He succeeded with a lot less. The years of minor league neglect probably have finally caught up to the White Sox. They just don't have many cheap guys they can plug in to fill holes, so the payroll is going to have to go even higher, which means Brooks and his guys are going to have to sell a team that may lose 90+ games and have a price increase on tickets. The minor league problems should have been sorted out a lot sooner than they were. Its amazing they have bottomed out. It makes me sick when the broadcasters try to sell an Andy Gonzalez on the viewers. C'mon, I'm not that dumb.

[WCSox]

If it was KW who shipped Gio and Gavin Floyd out somewhere to acquire Freddy Garcia, and what happened still happened, the KW fans would say Garcia throws 200 innings and wins 15 games every year, how could KW have foreseen what happened? They would have said getting rid of Floyd was no loss (I agree) and shipping a AA pitcher like Gio was a good gamble on a guy with Garcia's track record. Of course since KW is on the other side of the trade he is a genius as well.

 

When a pitcher who has several 200+ inning seasons on his arm hits 31 and fastball drops 6-7 mph in one season, it's pretty obvious that he's declining. That was obvious to everyone last year, except apparently Pat Gillick. The Garcia deal wasn't so much about Kenny being some sort of genius, but Gillick being a fool.

 

Edited August 30, 2007 by WCSox

[Soxbadger]

Are you seriously saying the following:

 

That you think it is worse for a GM to mistake Berry for Barry over a GM who fails to have a player take a physical?

 

One of them is just a mistake, it happens every day. I have never met a perfect person, I have never met some one who didnt transpose a number or make a mistake on a name before.

 

What I do expect on the other hand, is that a GM would give every single player a physical. That is derelict in your duties.

 

I mean this was an $8mil contract, a top 10 organization wise prospect, for a guy that all you had to do was watch for 10 minutes last year to know he was injured. And he failed miserably.

 

That is inexcusable, and Im sorry but if KW said "Well the deal is off if you give him a physical" then itd be pretty clear Freddy was damaged.

 

I think that if KW could GM like Beane, that KW could win more games every year. But I do not think that the White Sox would have a World Series ring. I mean would people in Chicago really be happy with Beane's results?

[Gregory Pratt]

Most trades don't involve a physical, if I recall correctly, beyond the one that they take at the beginning of the year.

[WCSox]

Most trades don't involve a physical, if I recall correctly, beyond the one that they take at the beginning of the year.

 

Gillick was an idiot for not asking for one on Freddy, given that WE all strongly suspected that something was wrong with him. That cost his franchise $10 million and a decent prospect in Gio.

Edited August 30, 2007 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Standard practice.

[WCSox]

Standard practice.

 

Not if you suspect that a player is injured. If there's ANY doubt, you demand it as part of the trade. If KW refused, you politely decline.

 

[Dick Allen]

The physical wouldn't have shown anything. Freddy also was sore in spring training and had an MRI done, and that came back fine. Go back to the boards here when Freddy was on a roll at the end of the year and tell me how many people thought he was going to fall off a cliff? Ozzie Guillen who knows him better than anyone on this board and apparently a guy who always speaks the truth, said Freddy would win 20 in Philadelphia, so he must be a fool as well. I was one who didn't like Freddy's immediate future, and was criticized for it. I applauded KW for the trade. He couldn't lose. Even if Floyd and Gio are busts he saves money.

Edited August 30, 2007 by Dick Allen

[Soxbadger]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...orth_examining/

 

Note the part where it says: One league exec says his club requires it 90% of the time.

 

I thought basically every trade says at the end "pending physical".

 

Interesting though that you think GMs and owners would just take on millions in assets without having them physically checked. Seems pretty outrageous to me.

 

In fact if you search pending physical and baseball trades youll basically find tons of them, compared to very few the other way.

[Gregory Pratt]

The "innings" idea was a very credible one, and the opposing GM is supposed to let you know if they know or suspect of something being wrong (drugs, injuries, attitude).

[Gregory Pratt]

I'll elaborate: "pending physical" doesn't necessarily mean a full, MRI physical.

[Soxbadger]

Dick Allen,

 

I assume you are a Dr. with actual knowledge of Freddy's condition, as compared to just saying that a physical (which is completely different than a simple mri) would have shown nothing.

 

And I thought Freddy was injured, judging by the loss of velocity. Just because he invented a split finger, didnt mean that he didnt look hurt.

 

Yes, but Gillick gave Freddy nothing.

 

Garcia's "entry physical" did not include an MRI from shoulder to finger tips. For $10 million, don't you need to know

 

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/200...s_warranty.html

 

Seems the Phils fans dont think it was so obvious not to give a physical either.

Edited August 30, 2007 by Soxbadger

[WCSox]

The physical wouldn't have shown anything. Freddy also was sore in spring training and had an MRI done, and that came back fine.

 

I wouldn't have made the trade in the first place after seeing that Freddy was maxing out at 87 all of last year.

 

Go back to the boards here when Freddy was on a roll at the end of the year and tell me how many people thought he was going to fall off a cliff?

 

Freddy was getting by on smoke and mirrors. His velocity sure as heck wasn't there at the end of last year.

 

I was one, and was criticized for it. I applauded KW for the trade. He couldn't lose. Even if Floyd and Gio are busts he saves money.

 

As was I. We needed to get rid of one of them and he was the one who's skills had apparently declined the most.

 

[Dick Allen]

Dick Allen,

 

I assume you are a Dr. with actual knowledge of Freddy's condition, as compared to just saying that a physical (which is completely different than a simple mri) would have shown nothing.

 

And I thought Freddy was injured, judging by the loss of velocity. Just because he invented a split finger, didnt mean that he didnt look hurt.

 

Yes, but Gillick gave Freddy nothing.

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/200...s_warranty.html

 

Seems the Phils fans dont think it was so obvious not to give a physical either.

We were told it was the World Baseball Classic and playoffs that had Freddy's velocity at about Charlie Haeger level. We were lied to? I thought he had to be hurt. Freddy had stiffness in the spring when they checked him again, at least as thorough as they would have had him checked in any trade, and it came back clean. If Gillick is a fool what does that say about Ozzie, a guy who knows Freddy a lot better than any of us, and a guy who would know a lot better than any of us if something is not right? He said Freddy would win 20 games in 2007.

[Dick Allen]

I wouldn't have made the trade in the first place after seeing that Freddy was maxing out at 87 all of last year.

Freddy was getting by on smoke and mirrors. His velocity sure as heck wasn't there at the end of last year.

As was I. We needed to get rid of one of them and he was the one who's skills had apparently declined the most.

He was on a roll at the end of the season and finished with decent numbers. Of course it was a mirage, it reminded me of when Jim Abbott came back to the Sox after being released and went 5-0 at the end of the season throwing junk up to the plate. Milwaukee gave him some decent money that winter and wound up eating most of it as they released him fairly quickly. Not everyone thought it was a mirage. They were raving about his split.

[chisoxt]

have to say KW. The way he put together this team is risky. Relying on guys who are coming off of injuries e.g Erstad, or have not proven themselves to be succesful major leaguers e.g. Floyd, Masset, Sisco, Aardsma, is a risky proposition. Sometimes taking chances can be extremely beneficial, but when your payroll is @100 mil, you should not be in last place with the majority of your offseason acquistions either being in AAA or having been demoted there. Aging and injury prone with a farm system pretty barren of position prospects, this organization needs some new life breathed into it.

 

Exactly. It's one thing to have several 'projects' in the bullpen, but with this payroll it's downright cheap and foolish.

[29andPoplar]

We were told it was the World Baseball Classic and playoffs that had Freddy's velocity at about Charlie Haeger level. We were lied to? I thought he had to be hurt. Freddy had stiffness in the spring when they checked him again, at least as thorough as they would have had him checked in any trade, and it came back clean. If Gillick is a fool what does that say about Ozzie, a guy who knows Freddy a lot better than any of us, and a guy who would know a lot better than any of us if something is not right? He said Freddy would win 20 games in 2007.

 

I really don't think the White Sox were going to say "Freddy has a very worn out right shoulder, it's from pitching 200 innings, heavy innings, for the last several years. That, fans, is why his velocity is way down."

 

Veteran players are hurting all the time and whether we like it or not, as fans we don't get the full and complete story. If a veteran says he's ok and he can give it a go, they will put a positive spin on it. They are not going to say, well, he has tons of wear and tear and he's a shoulder surgery waiting to happen but he's gonna try to gut it out.

 

Nor is Ozzie Guillen going to say "Freddy, he is hurting. Bad shoulder. Glad we trade."

 

Information came out later about the exam Freddy had in the spring this year, it came out he had considerable wear and tear in the shoulder and now they are saying rotator cuff and labrum damage.

 

Common sense in releasing info to the public comes into play. It's not all black and white. Garcia is a veteran and if he tells the Philly medical staff, hey, I can pitch through this, generally they will let him.

 

As you said, that trade was a fleece even if Gonzalez and Floyd do nothing. The problem was, the $10M saved wasn't used properly, or at least the $10M didn't help the Sox in 07.

Edited August 30, 2007 by 29andPoplar