Sox aiming for Eckstein...

[Flash Tizzle]

I don't give a s*** about OPS when I'm talking about a SS, especially when I'm talking about a guy that has proven to be a solid leadoff hitter (despite my absolute hate of Eckstein). IF we were talking about a middle of the order shortstop, fine, ops matters, but not when the Sox have a drastic need for a leadoff hitter.

 

Cmon, Jason. We're dead last in producing much of anything resembling an offense. Since 2005, when his OBP reached a respectable .363, he's steadily taken less and less walks per season. His stolen base totals are nothing to admire, either. When coupled with a complete absence of power, what good is he? These aren't facts which support anything resembling a solid leadoff hitter.

 

I agree he's an improvement over Uribe. But ultimately, how much do the White Sox improve over this season due to this signing? Does this make us a playoff contender now? Honestly, i'd rather trade any of Thome, Konerko, Garland -- acquire (among other pieces) several promising MIF prospects -- and go through their problems for 300K than deal with another walking grinder.

 

It's just another no-nothing move. Since we're probably not going to be winning anything for quite awhile, while not set our sights towards acquiring young talent for SS rather than waste resources on Eckstein? Completely pointless, imo. Only purpose it serves is to give the illusion of improvements. A feeling of "anything is better than Uribe." Sure, for one or two seasons. Then who replaces Eckstein?

Edited August 31, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Balta1701]

It's just another no-nothing move. Since we're probably not going to be winning anything for quite awhile, while not set our sights towards acquiring young talent for SS rather than waste resources on Eckstein? Completely pointless, imo. Only purpose it serves is to give the illusion of improvements. A feeling of "anything is better than Uribe." Sure, for one or two seasons. Then who replaces Eckstein?

Pedro Alvarez.

[kwolf68]

 

Unreal. To get a SS we need to go after a young talent and start building for the future. I am in utter disbelief that anyone could think this wretched team merely needs a couple added veterans on an already aging and laborious team. Eckstein would be fine, if you dumped about 8 or 9 other players currently on the roster. This team sucks and David Eckstein won't make it but so much better.

[sayitaintso]

Pedro Alvarez.

That would be nice, though i wouldn't mind Harold Martinez either.

[Flash Tizzle]

Pedro Alvarez.

Just need to keep losing, which shouldn't be very difficult.

[JPN366]

I don't see a reason that we couldn't pry Brent Lillibridge away from Atlanta pretty cheaply, he would be a good young option at SS.

 

Lilly-bridge is a major league tool. And, that's not a compliment. I saw him play for the Mississippi Braves earlier this year. Major bad attitude. He wouldn't win over the Chicago fans at all. Plus, don't hold out ANY hope for Robert Valido. He's got more attitude than game. He keeps washing out of AA back to A ball.

Edited August 31, 2007 by JPN366

[Wanne]

Unreal. To get a SS we need to go after a young talent and start building for the future. I am in utter disbelief that anyone could think this wretched team merely needs a couple added veterans on an already aging and laborious team. Eckstein would be fine, if you dumped about 8 or 9 other players currently on the roster. This team sucks and David Eckstein won't make it but so much better.

 

I'd keep my eye on Brandon Crawford, SS from UCLA as well. Personally I still think Kenny makes a strong run at Tejada this off season.

[Rowand44]

Well it looks like there is about 2 of us, but I have absolutely no problem with David Eckstein being a member of the Sox.

[NorthSideSox72]

Cmon, Jason. We're dead last in producing much of anything resembling an offense. Since 2005, when his OBP reached a respectable .363, he's steadily taken less and less walks per season. His stolen base totals are nothing to admire, either. When coupled with a complete absence of power, what good is he? These aren't facts which support anything resembling a solid leadoff hitter.

 

I agree he's an improvement over Uribe. But ultimately, how much do the White Sox improve over this season due to this signing? Does this make us a playoff contender now? Honestly, i'd rather trade any of Thome, Konerko, Garland -- acquire (among other pieces) several promising MIF prospects -- and go through their problems for 300K than deal with another walking grinder.

 

It's just another no-nothing move. Since we're probably not going to be winning anything for quite awhile, while not set our sights towards acquiring young talent for SS rather than waste resources on Eckstein? Completely pointless, imo. Only purpose it serves is to give the illusion of improvements. A feeling of "anything is better than Uribe." Sure, for one or two seasons. Then who replaces Eckstein?

I realize that railing on the farm system is your favorite passtime, and often you are right because it is not in good shape. BUT, as some of us were just discussing, we do now appear to have two decent SS prospects at the lower levels (Miranda at Kanny and possibly Paiml at GF). So as for your what-do-we-do-in-2010 issue, I think there may be some answers at that point. That's not even to mention that we have drafts and trades galore between now and then. I know you want to write off the next three years and all, but I think its a little early for that.

 

[Palehosefan]

"Lilly-bridge is a major league tool. And, that's not a compliment. I saw him play for the Mississippi Braves earlier this year. Major bad attitude. He wouldn't win over the Chicago fans at all. Plus, don't hold out ANY hope for Robert Valido. He's got more attitude than game. He keeps washing out of AA back to A ball. "

 

Not sure how you saw major attitude in one or two games. Did he throw a chair at a teammate or something? I know some others like John Sickels is very high on Lillibridge as well. From the interviews I've read with Lillibridge he seems like a decent guy.

[Kalapse]

I, personally love the idea of Brent Lillibridge.

[WCSox]

Not super-excited about this, but I wouldn't mind Eck replacing Uribe. Outside of the occasional HR, Uribe's almost worthless at the plate. But I DO expect them to go out and get one solid bat that can play CF or LF (e.g., Hunter, Rowand) on top of it.

 

[SoxFan562004]

i thought they learned from the Erstad move, KW seemed to fall out of love with him, with the rumors of trying to move him. This would be a bad move, not an upgrade at all

[Jeremy]

Eckstein: .679 OPS

Uribe: .629 OPS

 

Thats not significant, especially when you're considering the fact that Uribe is having (basically) the worst year of his career, is 5 years younger than Eckstein, offers excellent defense, and is likely cheaper.

 

I think this is a situation where OPS isn't particularly effective. Eckstein is hitting .290/.334/.345 while Uribe is hitting .216/.267/.362. That nearly 60 point gap in OBP is massive because 1) OBP is actually 4x more important than SLG and 2) this team already has decent power but is second to last in the majors in OBP.

 

I think that even after taking defense into account, Eckstein is a substantial upgrade. The issue is the number of years because I think we'll end up tearing everything down in a year or two and that will be harder to do with a well paid aging shortstop on the roster who probably isn't contributing much anymore. I think everyone who wants to add a young SS are probably dreaming because it's a done deal that we're going for it next year and we'll already have several young players in the lineup. Furcal (I don't think there's any way Renteria will be available) is the only better, realistic option I can think of off the top of my head.

[santo=dorf]

Uribe is much better than Eckstein defensively, and SS is a defensive position.

 

Eckstein f***ing sucks and this club would be completely stupid to sign him as he will get a multiyear deal when one year is too long. I'd much rather sign Vizquel for one year around $2 million, but I still think that isn't that good of a move.

 

...and the idea of getting Tracy, who is more injury prone than Thome, hits LHP much worse than Thome (.413 OPS this year against them,) and doesn't mash RHP anywhere near as well as Thome, to help platoon DH with Crede (sucks offensively,) Fields (still a long way to go) to replace Thome is quite f***ing stupid.

[Kalapse]

Eckstein f***ing sucks and this club would be completely stupid to sign him as he will get a multiyear deal when one year is too long. I'd much rather sign Vizquel for one year around $2 million, but I still think that isn't that good of a move.

If it came down to a 3-4 year $4M per deal to Eckstein or a 1 year $2M deal for Vizquel, I'd take a chance on Omar replicating his 2006 numbers (no matter how unlikely that may be.)

[Chisoxfn]

Cmon, Jason. We're dead last in producing much of anything resembling an offense. Since 2005, when his OBP reached a respectable .363, he's steadily taken less and less walks per season. His stolen base totals are nothing to admire, either. When coupled with a complete absence of power, what good is he? These aren't facts which support anything resembling a solid leadoff hitter.

 

I agree he's an improvement over Uribe. But ultimately, how much do the White Sox improve over this season due to this signing? Does this make us a playoff contender now? Honestly, i'd rather trade any of Thome, Konerko, Garland -- acquire (among other pieces) several promising MIF prospects -- and go through their problems for 300K than deal with another walking grinder.

 

It's just another no-nothing move. Since we're probably not going to be winning anything for quite awhile, while not set our sights towards acquiring young talent for SS rather than waste resources on Eckstein? Completely pointless, imo. Only purpose it serves is to give the illusion of improvements. A feeling of "anything is better than Uribe." Sure, for one or two seasons. Then who replaces Eckstein?

I'm saying if you are taking the approach that your going to go the veteran way, than the above is what I would do. I think we all know I'd prefer to get rid of a lot of the guys making over 10M, load up on young players, combine those guys with a few veterans and try to see what we have next year (if we are close, than move a player or two to fill a couple of holes that you weren't able to fill with young players and that could hopefully get you closer to a playoff appearance next year, but at the same time your still on track for 2009 and past. I think its the safer way to prevent a massive 5-6 year collapse (at its best, because if things go bad next year, this club may be completely screwed for a lot more than 5 or 6 seasons, however, they still are at the point that if they made some trades of there more talented older players and loaded up on young talent and got a bit lucky they could be in it next year and if not as long as they scouted and did well and didn't get really unlucky they should be in very good shape for 09/10/11, especially if they were able to find ways to add vets into the mix or trade for younger players (maybe guys close to getting contracts that you could deal for at a value because you'll have to shell out some money to sign even) to team up with these young prospects.

 

However, it doesn't appear the Sox are going to go that route and that they are going to try one last season with a lot of this core and based on that the above is a scenario that I still think helps the Sox and makes them a potential contender, but still slightly makes the club younger and gets them some young prospects as well so that they won't be in quite as bad shape in 2009 (if 2008 does go wrong as you would have at least 4 young position players already starting plus a couple young starters that you can use in 09 as opposed to if we stick with everything we may not even have that nor would we have any young talent coming up as well).

[Gregory Pratt]

Lillibridge won't come cheap. The Braves will be moving either Lillibridge, Escobar or Renteria and none of them will come "cheap" per se. I'd love to have Lillibridge but I don't think it's going to happen.

 

As for Eckstein? I love David Eckstein as a player. God bless him, he's such a gamer and he's got more heart than just about everybody in baseball, but we've got another DE who is just like that, who I love just as much and admire, who has absolutely no business starting for a championship caliber team.

 

But since we won't be a championship caliber team next year, maybe it isn't a bad idea?

[Chisoxfn]

I, personally love the idea of Brent Lillibridge.

Or a player like him (the Sox can use some of there prospects and do a swap of prospects as Lillibridge really doesn't have a spot in Atlanta). And I'm sure there are other guys out there that are in similar situations and I am quietly hoping Kenny uses some of his young arms (even guys that some of you may not think have much value such as Sisco or Thornton or MacDougall or Floyd or Broadway or McCulloch or Russell or Masset or even Eggy) to acquire some prospects at positions we need them.

 

I'm not necessarily saying you'll be able to trade Broadway for Lillibridge but maybe the right package and you can. Or maybe you deal a guy like Masset for a little older prospect that has had success but never had a position because he's blocked by major league talent (yet this prospect still has talent, its just his value has dropped a bit based on him not being able to get promoted to the majors). Those options are out there, but its going to come down to Kenny being a little ballsy and taking a chance (something I'd like to see) as well as our scouts doing an excellent job identifying these guys that could be had without giving up any major long term chips (Gio Gonzalez, maybe Egbert is considered this as well but I included him on the list because i would deal Egbert for Lillibridge or any other upper echelon prosepct, although I don't know if the other organization would consider those sort of deals).

[Gregory Pratt]

Or a player like him (the Sox can use some of there prospects and do a swap of prospects as Lillibridge really doesn't have a spot in Atlanta). And I'm sure there are other guys out there that are in similar situations and I am quietly hoping Kenny uses some of his young arms (even guys that some of you may not think have much value such as Sisco or Thornton or MacDougall or Floyd or Broadway or McCulloch or Russell or Masset or even Eggy) to acquire some prospects at positions we need them.

 

I'm not necessarily saying you'll be able to trade Broadway for Lillibridge but maybe the right package and you can. Or maybe you deal a guy like Masset for a little older prospect that has had success but never had a position because he's blocked by major league talent (yet this prospect still has talent, its just his value has dropped a bit based on him not being able to get promoted to the majors). Those options are out there, but its going to come down to Kenny being a little ballsy and taking a chance (something I'd like to see) as well as our scouts doing an excellent job identifying these guys that could be had without giving up any major long term chips (Gio Gonzalez, maybe Egbert is considered this as well but I included him on the list because i would deal Egbert for Lillibridge or any other upper echelon prosepct, although I don't know if the other organization would consider those sort of deals).

 

Yeah, like I said, nobody's getting Lillibridge cheap. I'm glad you're not saying that you can trade Broadway for Lillibridge because you can't. And no, you can't send Nick Masset over there, either. As for Egbert? I don't know. I don't think they would. I wouldn't trade Lillibridge for Egbert, if he were mine. I just don't think we've got a match for Lillibridge with Atlanta.

[Allsox]

Eckstein at SS for next yr should absolutely frighten the pitching staff, let alone Soxfandom. Would rather take Uribe and his suckiness at the plate than this rag arm there.

[JPN366]

"Lilly-bridge is a major league tool. And, that's not a compliment. I saw him play for the Mississippi Braves earlier this year. Major bad attitude. He wouldn't win over the Chicago fans at all. Plus, don't hold out ANY hope for Robert Valido. He's got more attitude than game. He keeps washing out of AA back to A ball. "

 

Not sure how you saw major attitude in one or two games. Did he throw a chair at a teammate or something? I know some others like John Sickels is very high on Lillibridge as well. From the interviews I've read with Lillibridge he seems like a decent guy.

 

More like 15 games, I'm a Barons season ticket holder. But, hearing him scream the F word audibly countless times doesn't bode well in my book. I like passion in a ballplayer, but not unhinged anger. And, the language didn't bother me at all. Plus, he was originally in the Pirates system, came over in the LaRoche deal. I don't want a guy the Pirates don't want.

Edited August 31, 2007 by JPN366

[Gregory Pratt]

More like 15 games, I'm a Barons season ticket holder. But, hearing him scream the F word audibly countless times doesn't bode well in my book. I like passion in a ballplayer, but not unhinged anger. And, the language didn't bother me at all. Plus, he was originally in the Pirates system, came over in the LaRoche deal. I don't want a guy the Pirates don't want.

 

Like Aramis Ramirez?

 

If you think he's a tool because he swears....heh, I don't even have a cute thing to say to that.

[Chisoxfn]

Uribe is much better than Eckstein defensively, and SS is a defensive position.

 

Eckstein f***ing sucks and this club would be completely stupid to sign him as he will get a multiyear deal when one year is too long. I'd much rather sign Vizquel for one year around $2 million, but I still think that isn't that good of a move.

 

...and the idea of getting Tracy, who is more injury prone than Thome, hits LHP much worse than Thome (.413 OPS this year against them,) and doesn't mash RHP anywhere near as well as Thome, to help platoon DH with Crede (sucks offensively,) Fields (still a long way to go) to replace Thome is quite f***ing stupid.

Glad you continue to completely ignore the fact that Thome will be worthless for the Sox in one year. Plus I do not believe that Tracy is more injury prone than Thome as Tracy has had an injury (tendinitis in his knee) but it is the sort of injury that with a full off-season he should be good. In addition, sans this year he has been healthy his entire career while Thome has been completely unhealthy for the most part the past couple seasons (albeit productive when healthy but thats pretty meaningless when you are good for 2 stints on the DL per season, plus you already miss all the interleague games when we are in the NL park (while Tracy could actually freaking play in the field and help out in numerous areas).

 

Oh and Tracy is actually getting better while Thome is getting worse and the Sox need more guys that are on the upward spiral rather than the downward spiral.

 

And just in case it matters...Tracy had played in 154 games last year, 145 and 143 the two years before that (his only 3 seasons at the major league level and even if you factor in this years 75 games he averages 125 per season). You also have to factor in that his first two seasons he wasn't necessarily a full time starter as he was a young player still sitting out on ocassions due to developmental purposes (so he could have potentially played in more games).

 

Thome on the other hand is averaging 112 games per season over the past 4 years (one of those being an extreme injury season, much like the one Tracy is having this year...however sans each players one major injury one has proven to be very heatlhy the past couple years while the other is old and continues to break down more and more). So give me a f***ing break about Thome being less injury prone.

[santo=dorf]

So how is Thome worthless for one year, but we should bring back Crede?

 

Tracy is currently spending his second stint on the DL, and he's not getting better as his numbers have been dipping since 2005. His peak OBP is .359 as he is usually at .343. So your claim of him getting better is just a flat out lie. I'd much rather have Thome in a decline than Tracy in a decline. Even if Tracy was in some kind of early career peak, we would only have him for two years.

 

How is it patello-femoral syndrome can be cured easily with a full offseason, yet a back strain can't? I understand Thome is older, but Tracy is might require surgery for a condition that normally does not require it? Tracy and Thome have both battled rib cage injuries as well this year.

Edited August 31, 2007 by santo=dorf