Ozzie Extension

[29andPoplar]

Pitching to Morneau with an open base and two outs with Cirillo on deck was the 2nd worst managerial move of the season. Of course, the Contreras debacle in Boston should have books written about it.

 

It is real easy to pick out situations where things didn't work out. Where were you yesterday when Wasserman was in there to face Sheffield and Ordonez.

 

It works both ways and has for every manager in the history of the game.

[NorthSideSox72]

The point that both Kalapse and 29 have been making, though from slightly different angles, is key here - evaluating a manager is not a task laden with hard facts. Its a soft study. Therefore, saying "Ozzie is an atrocious manager" is not only an OPINION, it is also probably far overstated. Saying Ozzie is a "great" manager, same thing - OPINION, and probably ignoring some of his missteps. So trying to have this discussion by saying over, and over, and over again those opinions is not going anywhere.

 

[Rowand44]

Did Ozzie continuously run this team out of innings? Did he put his players in position to get hurt? Did he continuously mishandle the pitching staff? No - when the teams performance is hindered by strategy, and not injuries and poor execution, then I think its fair to blame Ozzie.

He's ran us out of innings before in his own way by giving up unnecessary outs, sure. Toby Hall comes to mind. Yes imo though you seem to see it a different way.

[NorthSideSox72]

It is real easy to pick out situations where things didn't work out. Where were you yesterday when Wasserman was in there to face Sheffield and Ordonez.

 

It works both ways and has for every manager in the history of the game.

That's true, but, I will say that Morneau call seemed pretty bad to me. And to a lot of others. I don't think anyone here would say that Ozzie hasn't made mistakes - just like every other manager has. Its all the less clear ones, that aren't really good or bad decisions, that make it tough to evaluate a manager.

 

[Rowand44]

It is real easy to pick out situations where things didn't work out. Where were you yesterday when Wasserman was in there to face Sheffield and Ordonez.

 

It works both ways and has for every manager in the history of the game.

Ozzie is an unconventional manager, no argument there but some of the things he does are just mind boggling. He likes to follow his "gut" too much and a lot of times he pays for it. He does have some positives(though I'm starting to see less and less everyday) but he's a piss poor in game manager imo.

[fathom]

It is real easy to pick out situations where things didn't work out. Where were you yesterday when Wasserman was in there to face Sheffield and Ordonez.

 

It works both ways and has for every manager in the history of the game.

 

I was at work, not watching the game. The game against Morneau back in April or May was terrible managing, and you asked for a specific instance in which he managed poorly.

[fathom]

The point that both Kalapse and 29 have been making, though from slightly different angles, is key here - evaluating a manager is not a task laden with hard facts. Its a soft study. Therefore, saying "Ozzie is an atrocious manager" is not only an OPINION, it is also probably far overstated. Saying Ozzie is a "great" manager, same thing - OPINION, and probably ignoring some of his missteps. So trying to have this discussion by saying over, and over, and over again those opinions is not going anywhere.

 

Ozzie's not going anywhere, so it's really pointless having the back and forth debate about him anymore. I think we'll all agree we need to see better results starting in April of 2008, and if not, a lot of people should be on the hot seat. Some people love him, some hate him.....it's that way with every coach in sports.

[fathom]

Did Ozzie continuously run this team out of innings? Did he put his players in position to get hurt? Did he continuously mishandle the pitching staff? No - when the teams performance is hindered by strategy, and not injuries and poor execution, then I think its fair to blame Ozzie.

 

Absolutely, he ruined our back-up catcher in the spring training (I can't wait to debate this for the 500th time this year).

[NorthSideSox72]

Ozzie's not going anywhere, so it's really pointless having the back and forth debate about him anymore. I think we'll all agree we need to see better results starting in April of 2008, and if not, a lot of people should be on the hot seat. Some people love him, some hate him.....it's that way with every coach in sports.

 

Strongly agree.

 

Absolutely, he ruined our back-up catcher in the spring training (I can't wait to debate this for the 500th time this year).

 

Strongly disagree.

 

[Rowand44]

Absolutely, he ruined our back-up catcher in the spring training (I can't wait to debate this for the 500th time this year).

Beat ya to it.

[Gregory Pratt]

Toby Hall isn't that good to begin with. And no, Ozzie didn't ruin him.

 

Would everybody, say, throw Bobby Cox under the bus if Salty had been injured when they played him at first? It was a freak play and they were trying to save him some energy by not having him catch. There was nothing wrong with what Ozzie did, I don't care how bad Hall looked at first. He wasn't there trying out for the position. He was just getting at-bats.

 

I will say this about ruining Hall: why the hell hasn't he gotten surgery yet? And who taught him how to call a game? But the first question, obviously, is more important.

[RockRaines]

Well Hall not only cant throw, but he cant hit or call ballgames. I wonder if ALL of that is because he injured HIMSELF in spring training.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well Hall not only cant throw, but he cant hit or call ballgames. I wonder if ALL of that is because he injured HIMSELF in spring training.

We'll see how Lucy does this month with the club, and then in AFL. He might be the backup C next year.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

We'll see how Lucy does this month with the club, and then in AFL. He might be the backup C next year.

 

I know he's hitting something like five hundred, and I genuinely like him, but

 

1. He struck out swinging on a changeup in the other batter's batter's box at about the shoulders

2. He makes me think of Suzuki in a bad way.

 

I doubt he'll be the backup catcher next year. If he is, he could be a good Henry Blanco type, but he'll have to hit a little, too.

[NorthSideSox72]

I know he's hitting something like five hundred, and I genuinely like him, but

 

1. He struck out swinging on a changeup in the other batter's batter's box at about the shoulders

2. He makes me think of Suzuki in a bad way.

 

I doubt he'll be the backup catcher next year. If he is, he could be a good Henry Blanco type, but he'll have to hit a little, too.

Oh I agree that as of today, he isn't ready yet - heck he spent most of this year at AA. That first AB against Rogers should have made that obvious. But, his history leads me to believe he will adjust and improve, just as he's done at every level. Ideally from a development perspective, he plays a few games here and sees how things work, works on his hitting in AFL, then goes to AAA at the start of 2008. And if he does there what he has done at each other step, and can put up a .260-.280 avg with a little power and speed, combined with strong D and arm... and I'd say he is ready to take over for Hall sometime in late '08.

 

Here is something else to consider, though. Hall makes 10 times what they'd have to pay Lucy. And in 2008, they could stand to save a few bucks. So if you are going to have a guy who hits .200, why not have it be someone cheaper, younger, with some ceiling room and better defense? Point is, I'd be OK with Lucy as the backup on Opening Day '08, though that's not ideal for his development.

 

 

[fathom]

Toby Hall isn't that good to begin with. And no, Ozzie didn't ruin him.

 

Would everybody, say, throw Bobby Cox under the bus if Salty had been injured when they played him at first? It was a freak play and they were trying to save him some energy by not having him catch. There was nothing wrong with what Ozzie did, I don't care how bad Hall looked at first. He wasn't there trying out for the position. He was just getting at-bats.

 

You know there's a huge difference between Hall and Salty, as the Braves actually were interested in getting him some at-bats at first base (due to their awful LaRoche trade). Also, there were so many concerns about his defensive ability behind the plate, everyone knows he'll eventually become a 1B. The Sox had no other options at back-up catcher in the spring, and should have been more careful with Hall. Diving for a ball isn't something that catchers ever have to do.

[Gregory Pratt]

You know there's a huge difference between Hall and Salty, as the Braves actually were interested in getting him some at-bats at first base (due to their awful LaRoche trade). Also, there were so many concerns about his defensive ability behind the plate, everyone knows he'll eventually become a 1B. The Sox had no other options at back-up catcher in the spring, and should have been more careful with Hall. Diving for a ball isn't something that catchers ever have to do.

 

They were showcasing him, more than anything. His offense isn't good enough for first base and he isn't that hot a catcher. That's why he was at first. We were giving Hall at-bats and saving him some wear-and-tear.

 

One of the best managers in the game has put a catcher at first for very defensible reasons. So did Ozzie, who isn't half the man Cox is (though he might be, eventually).

 

I'm just saying, I've never bought the hysteria about Ozzie Killing Toby!

[29andPoplar]

Toby Hall isn't that good to begin with. And no, Ozzie didn't ruin him.

 

Would everybody, say, throw Bobby Cox under the bus if Salty had been injured when they played him at first? It was a freak play and they were trying to save him some energy by not having him catch. There was nothing wrong with what Ozzie did, I don't care how bad Hall looked at first. He wasn't there trying out for the position. He was just getting at-bats.

 

I will say this about ruining Hall: why the hell hasn't he gotten surgery yet? And who taught him how to call a game? But the first question, obviously, is more important.

 

You are correct on this.

 

This kind of stuff happens all the time for every major league team. Many of these players as high schoolers or college or in the minors have played different positions. Managers will give them a chance to play some other positions on the diamond in spring, it is a way to give them some flexibility in case an odd situation comes up during the year. Heck Jermaine Dye was a stud SS in high school or Pony League or wherever. On the back fields it is not uncommon for these guys to tinker around at a different defensive position.

 

To add further, both Williams and Guillen said last winter they might move Hall around to give Konerko and Thome a breather and get him some at bats.

 

Guillen has made mistakes to be sure but to blame him for putting Hall in for an inning or two at 1B in a spring training game during which he got hurt is simply a case of people looking to blame Guillen for anything and everything. If people are going to torch a manager for that, don't ever go to spring training, any MLB team, that's for sure, because wow you will see things that will really really really get you upset.

 

As for Hall getting the surgery and whether it will absolutely for certain make him better than this ongoing rehab process, that is the big question. He is continually doing rehab, that was not an April-only situation. Hopefully he will be stronger next year because frankly he can't be any worse. Great guy and everything but they need somebody who can contribute.

[NorthSideSox72]

You know there's a huge difference between Hall and Salty, as the Braves actually were interested in getting him some at-bats at first base (due to their awful LaRoche trade). Also, there were so many concerns about his defensive ability behind the plate, everyone knows he'll eventually become a 1B. The Sox had no other options at back-up catcher in the spring, and should have been more careful with Hall. Diving for a ball isn't something that catchers ever have to do.

Ever? That's a stretch. They occasionally dive for bunts or pop flys, sometimes even really bad pitches. Or dive to make tags. Certainly its not often, but it happens. And there is not much question that playing catcher is far more risky for injury than 1B.

 

[kapkomet]

It amazes me the continued insight of so many things AFTER THE FACT around here.

[29andPoplar]

The Sox had no other options at back-up catcher in the spring, and should have been more careful with Hall. Diving for a ball isn't something that catchers ever have to do.

 

Neither of these are true. One, they had Wiki Gonzalez who should have broke camp in Hall's absence but they decided on Gustavo because he knew the pitchers better (mistake IMO). Not that Wiki Gonzalez would've made a substantial difference this year.

 

Catchers dive for foul balls and bunts in the air on occasion, and it isn't always belly first.

[fathom]

Ever? That's a stretch. They occasionally dive for bunts or pop flys, sometimes even really bad pitches. Or dive to make tags. Certainly its not often, but it happens. And there is not much question that playing catcher is far more risky for injury than 1B.

 

Yes, but Hall has years and years of experience at the position. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hall hurt himself diving for a grounder? Catchers have to lunge after pitches all the time, but they never have to dive parallel to the ground for a ball. I know it's a matter of semantics, but it was something that many of us at the time were critical of it happening due to the fact we didn't have a single possible back-up for the back-up. Hall might be the most useless/worthless player in baseball this year.

[29andPoplar]

It amazes me the continued insight of so many things AFTER THE FACT around here.

 

It is pretty simple actually. If you hate Guillen you will find a way to trace all sorts of mishaps back to him. From where I sit he has made mistakes and can improve on certain things but some of the things he's blamed for ... again, I hope those people never spend any time in spring training because they will go insane. White Sox or any of the other teams camps.

[fathom]

Neither of these are true. One, they had Wiki Gonzalez who should have broke camp in Hall's absence but they decided on Gustavo because he knew the pitchers better (mistake IMO). Not that Wiki Gonzalez would've made a substantial difference this year.

 

Like I said, when Gustavo Molina is your back-up....you have no back-up. I'm with you though....it was stupid to take Molina over Wiki. FWIW, Farmer mentioned the other day that Hall isn't sure if he'll get surgery.

[fathom]

It is pretty simple actually. If you hate Guillen you will find a way to trace all sorts of mishaps back to him. From where I sit he has made mistakes and can improve on certain things but some of the things he's blamed for ... again, I hope those people never spend any time in spring training because they will go insane. White Sox or any of the other teams camps.

 

And from the other point of view, it seems like a lot of people will never, ever blame Ozzie for anything. I'm just shocked that people don't expect this type of polar opposite debate on a sports message board.

 

Don't get me wrong Poplar....you at least back up your claims on why you support him. When I hear stuff like "Ozzie is the reason that Sox fans come to the park" or "there's no one else that could lead this team like he has", that's the stuff that irritates me. We suck this year, and it's been mostly every single individual in the organization besides Bobby Jenks.

Edited September 7, 2007 by fathom