Ozzie Extension

[kapkomet]

And from the other point of view, it seems like a lot of people will never, ever blame Ozzie for anything. I'm just shocked that people don't expect this type of polar opposite debate on a sports message board.

Oh, personally, I blame him for a lot of silly moves... but I'm not running around nitpicking every freakin' thing ad naseum calling for him to be fired, either.

 

[29andPoplar]

Yes, but Hall has years and years of experience at the position. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hall hurt himself diving for a grounder? Catchers have to lunge after pitches all the time, but they never have to dive parallel to the ground for a ball. I know it's a matter of semantics, but it was something that many of us at the time were critical of it happening due to the fact we didn't have a single possible back-up for the back-up. Hall might be the most useless/worthless player in baseball this year.

 

Again. He was working out at 1B on occasion in late Feb. after pitchers and catchers reported. I overheard but cannot say for sure because I did not see it with my own eyes but I heard he had done some work at 1B in Tampa's camps. I do not believe he played 1B in a major league game but I do believe he got a few games or at least innings at 3B. I will have to check.

 

He dove to his right, actually didn't even really dive, he got down to his right on the ground to try and stop a ground ball. Adam Russell was pitching. Come on. Catchers dive for balls on occasion at all sorts of angles. What's next, they shouldn't warm up pitchers in the bullpen, they shouldn't shag flies, they shouldn't high five players, anything where they might get hurt?

 

They did have a backup for the backup. Wiki Gonzalez but for some reason they decided on Gustavo Molina which I believe was a mistake. Now that they waived Molina it appears to be even more a mistake.

[fathom]

Not if anyone cares, but I was thinking yesterday if I would even be happy if I saw on the BottomLine some morning that Ozzie was fired and quit. To be honest, that wouldn't make me happy or sad. All that matters is getting better talent on this roster, and everything seems to be pointing to Hunter as the main target.

[Gregory Pratt]

Not if anyone cares, but I was thinking yesterday if I would even be happy if I saw on the BottomLine some morning that Ozzie was fired and quit. To be honest, that wouldn't make me happy or sad. All that matters is getting better talent on this roster, and everything seems to be pointing to Hunter as the main target.

 

Except for the article that says Eckstein is the main target, right?

[29andPoplar]

And from the other point of view, it seems like a lot of people will never, ever blame Ozzie for anything. I'm just shocked that people don't expect this type of polar opposite debate on a sports message board.

 

Don't get me wrong Poplar....you at least back up your claims on why you support him. When I hear stuff like "Ozzie is the reason that Sox fans come to the park" or "there's no one else that could lead this team like he has", that's the stuff that irritates me. We suck this year, and it's been mostly every single individual in the organization besides Bobby Jenks.

 

If you go back and read my posts, you will see I have commented on several things I believe Guillen can do better. I am not sure where even an insinuation comes up that Ozzie is never ever blamed for anything. That is certainly not me.

 

I will spell it out. He needs to stop trying to force things like all this hit and run stuff when he has players who struggle to make contact. Part of that falls on the GM too. He also needs to stop being completely reliant on his gut and consider other information. He needs to change his approach in spring training which he is going to do, they have struggled early and in my opinion part of that is Guillen insisting that all these really young prospects need to play in A games through the 25th of March. They need better continuity early. He needs to insist to Cooper and his pitchers that they work inside more. There are other things too.

 

No one is shocked/surprised this type of stuff comes up on a message board. If I see something posted that based on my knowledge is a gross generalization, a broad brush statement posed as fact when it isn't fact, I will chime in. I will also chime in when you for example start blaming Guillen for Hall's injury when it is a freak thing and the plan was to get him some time at 1B all along and Hall had worked out at 1B before. That type of stuff is beyond nitpicking, it is simply misguided.

 

Also I will comment on this stuff like "they are insane, why didn't they bring up Sweeney". I posted 5-6 times that Sweeney's wrist is not 100%, they are letting him get healthy and commented they might send him to winter ball. Well I was wrong, it's the Arizona Fall League. Then the very next day "they are insane, why didn't they bring up Sweeney". "Why isn't Poreda promoted to Winston-Salem, they are insane", and there's a logical explanation for that too.

 

Sometimes I think this is more a place to vent frustrations than to actually think about what is posted before posting it, and considering other reasons or thought processes that could be at play.

 

Edit - Hall played in two games for Tampa at 1B and one inning at 3B.

Edited September 7, 2007 by 29andPoplar

[vandy125]

And from the other point of view, it seems like a lot of people will never, ever blame Ozzie for anything. I'm just shocked that people don't expect this type of polar opposite debate on a sports message board.

So, just because someone is wrong on one polar opposite, you are right with the other polar opposite?

 

How does that logic work?

[fathom]

So, just because someone is wrong on one polar opposite, you are right with the other polar opposite?

 

How does that logic work?

 

I never said that...I just said there are those people that will love a certain player/coach, etc., and there are those that hate that same player/coach, etc. Never once did I say my opinion is right when compared to someone else's opinion.

[fathom]

No one is shocked/surprised this type of stuff comes up on a message board. If I see something posted that based on my knowledge is a gross generalization, a broad brush statement posed as fact when it isn't fact, I will chime in. I will also chime in when you for example start blaming Guillen for Hall's injury when it is a freak thing and the plan was to get him some time at 1B all along and Hall had worked out at 1B before. That type of stuff is beyond nitpicking, it is simply misguided.

 

Part of the reason I was so upset with the Hall injury was that I was watching that game on TV, and he looked beyond awkward catching a throw at 1B a few batter's prior to the injury. I'm just mad that I decided to go get a blizzard at Dairy Queen (Brownie Batter), as I didn't post in that game thread about how I didn't think Hall should be there, because he'd be like 6th on the list in terms of possible 1b candidates (Konerko, Erstad, Mackowiak, Dye, Ozuna). Then, the whole issue escalated on this board because some people didn't think the back-up catcher spot was important, while others thought it would crush our effort against tough lefties (have we beaten a good lefty starter all year?).

[fathom]

If you go back and read my posts, you will see I have commented on several things I believe Guillen can do better. I am not sure where even an insinuation comes up that Ozzie is never ever blamed for anything. That is certainly not me.

 

Definitely not referring to you

[Yossarian]

What makes this season look 'good' is a number of horrible, embarrasing beatings. The Sox have lost games by 16 and 13 runs, and two each at 12 and 10. On the other side they have won only one game by as much as 8. So the RA column is higher than normal for a baseball team with a similar record scoring a similar amount of runs. Its just a little statistical blip. This season it's more a measure of a poor middle relief corps than a good manager.

I like a lot of the stats that the Bill James crowd brought to the game, but this isn't one of them. Pythagorean wins (I'm not even going to look it up to see if I spelled it right) is a less than useless tool to evaluate a team, a manager, or anything else for that matter.

[29andPoplar]

Part of the reason I was so upset with the Hall injury was that I was watching that game on TV, and he looked beyond awkward catching a throw at 1B a few batter's prior to the injury. I'm just mad that I decided to go get a blizzard at Dairy Queen (Brownie Batter), as I didn't post in that game thread about how I didn't think Hall should be there, because he'd be like 6th on the list in terms of possible 1b candidates (Konerko, Erstad, Mackowiak, Dye, Ozuna). Then, the whole issue escalated on this board because some people didn't think the back-up catcher spot was important, while others thought it would crush our effort against tough lefties (have we beaten a good lefty starter all year?).

 

The whole point of getting Hall some time at 1B was so they could have the flexibility to get his righthanded bat in there, whether it was to give Konerko a breather, double switches, pinch hitting situations, etc.

 

It is one thing to be angry he got hurt, I was too. It is another thing to blame Guillen for it. Their plan all along was to have their bench poplulated with guys who could play multiple positions if needed. Getting a guy a few innings in spring training at different positions happens all the time, for bench guys anyways. They execute their plan, the guy gets hurt, stuff happens. It's no ones fault.

[Gregory Pratt]

He needs to change his approach in spring training which he is going to do, they have struggled early and in my opinion part of that is Guillen insisting that all these really young prospects need to play in A games through the 25th of March.

 

Uh, we were brilliant early in 06/05. We've been cruddy late.

 

I agree that we need to change many ST things, but "they have struggled early" doesn't sound right, per se. They struggled early this year but I'd say they did more than struggle early. They met the expectations that many, many people, from BP to people here, set for them.

[29andPoplar]

Uh, we were brilliant early in 06/05. We've been cruddy late.

 

I agree that we need to change many ST things, but "they have struggled early" doesn't sound right, per se. They struggled early this year but I'd say they did more than struggle early. They met the expectations that many, many people, from BP to people here, set for them.

 

Yes I should have been more specific, 2007 but if I recall right they were 1-4 or 1-5 in 2006 and to me they weren't prepared to come out of the gate firing.

 

Anyways I know their plan is to hopefully get the chemistry going early by trying to have the starters play together a lot the last week of spring.

 

Subjective stuff I suppose but I would like to see them treat spring training a little more seriously. They put their work in no question but I do like this move of having the starting pitchers rev up early and not pitching these simulated games on the back fields just to cut them a break on a bus ride.

 

Further I am a big big fan of bringing in non roster guys and a fair amount of them to make camp more competitive and I want to see them do even more of this. Get some guys in there who are blocked in other organizations, guys who are really hungry.

[Gregory Pratt]

Yes I should have been more specific, 2007 but if I recall right they were 1-4 or 1-5 in 2006 and to me they weren't prepared to come out of the gate firing.

 

Anyways I know their plan is to hopefully get the chemistry going early by trying to have the starters play together a lot the last week of spring.

 

Subjective stuff I suppose but I would like to see them treat spring training a little more seriously. They put their work in no question but I do like this move of having the starting pitchers rev up early and not pitching these simulated games on the back fields just to cut them a break on a bus ride.

 

Further I am a big big fan of bringing in non roster guys and a fair amount of them to make camp more competitive and I want to see them do even more of this. Get some guys in there who are blocked in other organizations, guys who are really hungry.

 

Yeah, but they wound up 17-7 in 2006, so it's a rough example, IMO.

[Harry Chappas]

Uh, we were brilliant early in 06/05. We've been cruddy late.

 

I agree that we need to change many ST things, but "they have struggled early" doesn't sound right, per se. They struggled early this year but I'd say they did more than struggle early. They met the expectations that many, many people, from BP to people here, set for them.

 

They actually didn't struggle until late May when Erstad got hurt/cub series. Weren't they 7 over at the time due to the lights out bullpen and starters? The polar opposite to the JM days.

[RockRaines]

Ever? That's a stretch. They occasionally dive for bunts or pop flys, sometimes even really bad pitches. Or dive to make tags. Certainly its not often, but it happens. And there is not much question that playing catcher is far more risky for injury than 1B.

I wonder what has the higher chance of injury, squatting behind the plate while catching 90+ mph fastballs and the occasional foul tip for numerous innings, and sometimes getting run over by a player trying to score, or playing an inning or two at 1B?

 

Hmmmmmm

[Steff]

It is pretty simple actually. If you hate Guillen you will find a way to trace all sorts of mishaps back to him. From where I sit he has made mistakes and can improve on certain things but some of the things he's blamed for ... again, I hope those people never spend any time in spring training because they will go insane. White Sox or any of the other teams camps.

 

 

 

Absolutely.

[Steff]

I never said that...I just said there are those people that will love a certain player/coach, etc., and there are those that hate that same player/coach, etc. Never once did I say my opinion is right when compared to someone else's opinion.

 

 

I would say extreme is the norm. It's hard to be even, especially in baseball I think. IMO, it's the most personal sport to be involved with.

[Gene Honda Civic]

They actually didn't struggle until late May when Erstad got hurt/cub series. Weren't they 7 over at the time due to the lights out bullpen and starters? The polar opposite to the JM days.

Let's look at what I had to say over at SSS just days before Erstad went down....

 

the Sox returned to their anemic (and altogether boring) ways. When the highlights of the night were Gustavo Molina's first (and quite possibly last) major league hit and Pablo Ozuna's first multi-walk game in a White Sox uniform, you did not have a productive night at the plate.

 

I missed a bunch of the game tonight. It just couldn't hold my interest... It was just more lifeless baseball from a lifeless team inexplicably treading water above .500.

Molina was optioned to Charlotte minutes after the game.

 

With Thursday's 4-1 victory in the books, the White Sox have won their 4th straight series and sit well within striking distance just 3.5 games back of the division leading Indians.

 

BUT in those 4 series victories, the Sox have been outscored 41-49, and 44-57 in the month of May, during which they've posted an 8-6 record. They've won a total of 20 games on the season, and just one of those victories was by more than 3 runs, Buehrle's no-hitter against the Rangers. That's not a recipe for long-term success. There's little hope of the Sox being able to continue to win while carrying the worst offense in baseball.

 

Help is on the way, however, and you have to figure that the offense can't be this bad all season. (Please get better. I can't stand to watch you be the only team in the AL that averages less than two hits per game with runners in scoring position.)

 

The Tribune website (I'm not sure it will be the same headline in the paper) reads "Wait until bats break out." But, pessimistic (realistic?) Sox fan that I am, I can't yet bring myself to accept that the pitching won't fall apart, which is why each loss with the pitching we've been seeing hurts all the more. The Sox can't keep waiting to "hit their stride," as Hawk would say. They've got to put W's in the bank for the day when Contreras breaks down, or Danks starts pitching like a rookie, or Joe Crede finally admits that surgery may have been a good idea. Well, maybe not that last one. Josh Fields could probably replace his current production rather easily, but you get my point. It's not time to be happy the Sox aren't further behind.

The latter quote demonstrates the predictive power of Pythagorean record which Yossarian discounted earlier. The Sox sat 3 games over 500 when I wrote that last quote, 3.5 games out. But they had allowed 13 more runs than they'd scored. They looked like a below .500 team. Even when winning.

 

 

[SkokieSox]

Absolutely, he ruined our back-up catcher in the spring training (I can't wait to debate this for the 500th time this year).

 

Go ahead and debate... The plan was to give at bats for Hall at first base on occassion to rest PK. Was he supposed to learn during the regular season?

[fathom]

Go ahead and debate... The plan was to give at bats for Hall at first base on occassion to rest PK. Was he supposed to learn during the regular season?

 

Considering Ozzie's reluctance to ever have no back-up catcher left on the bench during a game, I highly doubt Hall would have gotten a lot of playing time at first base with AJP catching.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Go ahead and debate... The plan was to give at bats for Hall at first base on occassion to rest PK. Was he supposed to learn during the regular season?

And that plan seemed pretty dumb when there is a gold glove firstbaseman on the roster.

[SkokieSox]

And that plan seemed pretty dumb when there is a gold glove firstbaseman on the roster.

 

Does it? Gold glover translates to super human with no need of rest? Wow PK is better than I thought...

[SkokieSox]

Considering Ozzie's reluctance to ever have no back-up catcher left on the bench during a game, I highly doubt Hall would have gotten a lot of playing time at first base with AJP catching.

 

That's what the plan was, and regardless of how many times it would actually happen, with Gload traded you needed an insuarnce policy there.

[Rowand44]

Does it? Gold glover translates to super human with no need of rest? Wow PK is better than I thought...

Talking about Erstad.