White Sox officially eliminated

[Flash Tizzle]

1. 20 players won't be back. From the current 25, I can name 7 players highly unlikely to return: Cintron, Uribe, Bukvich, Podsednik, MMac/Thornton (one of the two), Garland, Gonzalez. Then you can pretty much figure that one or two others will go in trades, that aren't what people thought - could be Contreras, Hall, heck anyone else really is possible. That is 9+ guys right there.

 

Somehow didn't consider Podsednik when compiling my list. He'll obviously be somewhere else in 2008.

 

I wouldn't label MacDougal or Thornton's departures as likely. Neither would I be confident that more than one starting pitcher (or additional positional player) is playing for another team come April . Konerko and Thome are the only feasible offensive trade candidates entering the offseason. And while dealing Konerko is an idea Williams should explore, it all depends upon other offensive additions and -- most importantly -- his value on the trade market.

 

Cintron, Uribe, Bukvich, Podsednik, Gonzalez, one SP are the names I'm sticking by.

2. You are forgetting that they already moved numerous players from the roster that weren't contributing when the team fell out of contention - Gooch, various relievers, etc. That's another few.

I didn't forget them. I just didn't need to consider it since I'm looking towards the offseason.

3. Making changes at the biggest holes - SS, CF, maybe RP... those are the places that changes have the biggest value. If for example they made major upgrades to SS, CF and one RP spot... those 3 changes alone can make a huge difference. Sometimes, just a couple or three guys can be a big change.

 

There's the issue -- what constitutes a "major" upgrade to SS, CF, and a reliever spot in your mind? I'd consider major as Tejada replacing Uribe, Hunter/Jones replacing Grindy/Owens, and perhaps trading for a proven reliever. That's potentially a whole lot of money thrown about, with the likelihood several of Gonzalez/Egbert/DeLosSantos are gone. I don't believe that's going to happen. Neither should it.

 

4. Your constant diatribe about the lousy farm system is really only accurate for position players. This organization has quite a bit of pitching talent depth. It would be hard to believe that KW and Co wouldn't leverage that this offseason to start getting more position player prospects. Add that to the fact that a number of our draftees from this year are already doing well at GF or elsewhere in the system (Gallagher, Miranda, etc.), plus the very high draft pick they are likely to get in 2008, and now it looks like they are actually improving things. I know that may be hard for you to believe, but the signs are there.

 

And they'll need their pitching depth to remain intact if Garland and/or Contreras are to be traded. I know you weren't suggesting it blatantly, but I believe for legitimate position player prospects we'll either have to deal our SP prospects or strike gold with dealing Garland, Konerko, etc.

 

We should be worried about assembling talent, not trading off what we believe is depth than later on having to compensate for it. As if the Young situation has taught us nothing. Who's to say the wrong player isn't traded and what we're left with is inconsistency and/or injury problems? We're in no position to do this right now, where the direction of this franchise is heading down.

 

Production in rookie ball doesn't help our 2008 ballclub. That is the issue here. Sure, there may be several potential blue-chip prospects in Great Falls and Bristol, but that's several years away. And until production continues in the higher levels against better competition I'm not going to change my position towards this team's farm system.

 

5. Are you seriously going to convert a sports writer's comments about Eckstein being "target #1" into fact? Despite the fact that there are all sorts of indications that they are aiming much higher than that?

 

Yes, since I'm not going to believe they'll outbid even the limited teams seeking a proven OF until proven otherwise.

 

6. None of this even touches on the fact that they organization KNOWS that attendance will take a hit in 2008 - its just a question of how much of one. And they aren't going to sit idly by and watch that revenue slink away.

 

I'm sure they'll do everything they can to give everyone the impression 2008 isn't a rebulding season. That's what worries me. To what extent will they go? Will they feel DLS or Carter don't help us within the immediate future and, therefore, are expendable? They traded Young to "win-now." Why wouldn't they do it again?

 

For these and other reasons it seems obvious to me the organization is going to make a lot of significant changes this offseason. Now, as to whether or not those changes result in a contender in 2008, I can't even guess at that until the dust settles.

 

Even if you're willing to adopt the "wait and see" approach, you have to recognize that for the White Sox to turn themselves around, we'll need to hit with EVERY offseason deal. Every trade much benefit us, and every FA signing much produce to their potential. I'll be much more critical of Williams if he receives crap in any trade scenario than I will if he overpays for Hunter. Even if he's serious about 2008, he has to realize -- if 2007 wasn't proof enough -- that talent needs to be injected into this organization. Cheap, productive talent.

 

[Dick Allen]

No matter how many times you post that they should, they are not going to rebuild in 2008. Wouldn't it be better to wait it out and see what they do and what they can accomplish. Baseball works funny sometimes. Look at Detroit, not to pick on them specifically but many people were saying they will have a dynasty due to their pitching. Bonderman is on his way to see an elbow doctor today.

 

Don't believe all the articles is all I can say.

And don't believe JR, KW or OG. They thought they had a title contender this season and may wind up with the worst record in baseball.

[29andPoplar]

And don't believe JR, KW or OG. They thought they had a title contender this season and may wind up with the worst record in baseball.

 

We are talking philosophy, not hindsight. Their philosophy going into 2008 is they are not going to rebuild. Nothing is promised. Reinsdorf said they will do everything they can to contend, he did not say he promises they will contend or promises they will win the division, because he can't.

 

What baseball executives say they will do and what their moves show they want to accomplish is totally different than what results might be. It's sports and things happen, several of their moves turned out to be wrong. Their philosophy was to contend and it is still to contend, not rebuild. They all said they will tell us when they will rebuild and I have no reason not to believe them.

[29andPoplar]

Production in rookie ball doesn't help our 2008 ballclub. That is the issue here. Sure, there may be several potential blue-chip prospects in Great Falls and Bristol, but that's several years away. And until production continues in the higher levels against better competition I'm not going to change my position towards this team's farm system.

 

I'm sure they'll do everything they can to give everyone the impression 2008 isn't a rebulding season. That's what worries me. To what extent will they go? Will they feel DLS or Carter don't help us within the immediate future and, therefore, are expendable? They traded Young to "win-now." Why wouldn't they do it again?

 

To the first paragraph, this is a misnomer. The farm system should be judged in its entirety because many times when you have blue chip talent (better stated: what you believe is blue chip talent) in rookie ball it allows you to trade some prospect further along in the food chain to get help now. They have a few marketable players higher up than Great Falls and Bristol and yes, those players could be traded to get some other player who can help starting in 2008 and into 2009 and 2010 etc. The trick is identifying which players to trade. Do you trade a Tyler Lumsden who many thought would be a sure fire #3 starter but looks like he won't make it, or do you trade a Chris Young who many thought would make it and he is indeed making it.

 

To the second paragraph, yes they did it before and yes they will probably do it again.

 

They have expanded and intensified efforts in the Domincan and Latin America and you are starting to see a few talented players coming into the system. Fautino De Los Santos, Juan Moreno and even a guy like Anderson Gomes had a very strong finish. Does this mean they will all make it, no. It means you have young players in the farm system who, at least for now, are marketable. Any or all can be moved if the deal is right. The deal would have to be exceptionally right for De Los Santos and Moreno but again, any can be traded.

[29andPoplar]

Adding another thought on the farm system philosophy.

 

Let's look at two guys, Jimmy Gallagher in Great Falls and Ryan Sweeney. Their experience level differs but interestingly they are both 22.

 

Ryan has battled inconsistency and health issues and has not had the real breakout year in the minors. When he was called up he was overmatched. Granted he is just 22. Personally I believe they are showcasing him in the Arizona Fall League and that Ryan is a guy they will be willing to trade.

 

Gallagher had an outstanding debut in Great Falls. Now does that mean he has the same prospect "status" as Ryan Sweeney, probably no or at least not yet. But just as Sweeney did, Gallagher is showing he has raw talent. He is also a left handed bat.

 

So this is the point. Looking from a broad perspective, the Sox signed Dye for two years and I believe in large measure because they did not feel Sweeney could take his place in 2008. The Sox may feel he's at the peak of his value in terms of being a can't miss prospect. If they judge Gallagher as a guy who in two years could be knocking on the door then maybe the Sox will say to themselves "this is the time to move Sweeney".

 

Just using this as an example, nothing more.

[Dick Allen]

I still think they will be handcuffed by the guaranteed money they already have out there. Garland won't bring back nearly what most think if he's traded. Ozzie has already started the "there aren't going to be many relievers available and we have guys under contract" line. So I think a lot more of this team will be back than should be back. Another year like 2007 in 2008 would be devastating.

[Flash Tizzle]

To the first paragraph, this is a misnomer. The farm system should be judged in its entirety because many times when you have blue chip talent (better stated: what you believe is blue chip talent) in rookie ball it allows you to trade some prospect further along in the food chain to get help now. They have a few marketable players higher up than Great Falls and Bristol and yes, those players could be traded to get some other player who can help starting in 2008 and into 2009 and 2010 etc. The trick is identifying which players to trade. Do you trade a Tyler Lumsden who many thought would be a sure fire #3 starter but looks like he won't make it, or do you trade a Chris Young who many thought would make it and he is indeed making it.

I'll admit right now I was one of those posters absolutely furious when Lumsden was dealt. It wasn't just the fact he was (at the time) one of our few SP prospects with any potential, but he was traded to a divisional opponent for the walking injury Mike MacDougal. And to further illustrate your point about knowing which players to trade, Daniel Cortes was an additional piece in the deal. He's doing quite well for himself, although the amount of flyballs surrendered is a little worrisome. It'll be interesting to follow him next season.

 

 

[watchtower41]

By the sounds of that article they would be happy to have Uribe back.....

 

 

over the likes of the Royce Clayton's of the world, I can't blame them.

[whitesox94]

Cleveland's win over the Angels last night mathematically eliminated the White Sox in the AL Central.

 

Dag Goumit