Is KW a painter???

[gosox41]

I think KW painted himself in a corner. He has a very difficult task ahead of him: rebuilding a team that may not win 70 games this season while doing so with a budget where a lot of the money is already tied up.

 

For the record, if the Sox jack their payroll up $15-20 mill (and I have no reason to believe they will) then they can legitimately contend. But if not, I don't see how KW is going to be a contending team next year let alone finish .500 (unless part of his plan is to move to the NL Central.)

 

Right now the Sox have $94 mill tied up into 14 players. Add $5 mill more for Crede and it's at $99 mill. If the Sox jump up to a $120 mill payroll they have a shot. Let's look at the projected 2008 team with comments of their value/drawbacks:

 

1B- PK. He is one of the 3 most marketable players on the Sox both for PR and being tradable. He also posts an above league average OBP but is a base clogger. Do you trade the capitain?

 

2B-Richar-I like him and think he'll be good. He's fast, has good strike zone judgement and makes the minimum. I think he can post an aove average OBP and be a decent stolen base threat

 

SS-BLANK Could be anyone as long as it's not Uribe. Will it be Eckstein? Renteria? I doubt it's A-Rod. Eckstein is the cheap alternative who is on the downside of his career. Renteria makes $9 mill next year but may be traded this off season by ATL. No to Vizquel.

 

3B-Crede Coming off back surgery so it does make one wonder how many games he'll be good for. If healthy will be a base clogger, have an average OBP and play gold glove D

 

LF-Fields-I like him and see good things for him. Average speed, needs to take more walks.

 

CF-BLANK-LIke SS, an On Base machine would be nice here. Torii Hunter would cost about $14 mill per year. No to Rowand as he is so overrated it's sick. Andruw Jones is not an option due to Boras.

 

RF-Dye-Just signed with some sort of no trade clause. Makes $11 mill per year and is injury prone. He was signed because the farm system sucks. No way he repeats 2006, but is still a threat with potential for above average OBP but is a base clogger.

 

C-Pierzynski-Don't know if the pitchers hate him or not, but he's by far the best catcher the Sox have. Oh yeah, he's another base clogger.

 

DH-Thome-On base stud but power is decreasing. Not the hitter he was and has no trade clause. Base Clogger.

 

So while KW preaches OBP and speed, the Sox have 3 guys who can get on base above the league average in their starting line up, and if you opeate under the assumption that there will be speed at SS and CF, then the Sox have 3 guys out of their starters who can steal bases. Can they get on base or is the CF going to be Owens-great speed, below average OBP.

 

Is this a championship calibe offense. 6 power hitting base cloggers. We've seen all too often what happens when they slump all at once.

 

As for starting pitching:

 

Buehrle-No trade clause, best pitcher on team

Vazquez- Limited no trade, cheap based on 2007 numbers but may be having a career year

Garland-HIm and PK are the 2 guys with any real trade value. The Sox have enough holes to fill to trade him.

Contreras-Gets $10 mill next year and there's virtually no demand for him. It'll be hard to give him away to dump salary let alone trade him. Might hae to trade him for another teams disappointment with a big contract.

Danks-Good upside, cheap.

 

Assuming Garland is gone, can the Sox win with 2 good starters (MB and JV), one guy who's still living off a hot second half in 2005 and first half in 2006 (JC) a second year pitcher and a rookie like Floyd or Gonzalez? Is this a championship starting rotation. let's take it one steo further and assume the Sox can dump JC. Is adding another rookie to the starting spot a good idea. WOuldn't KW be basically rebuilding the starting pitching?

 

Bull Pen

This is a mess. Not everone will be replaced. My guess is Jenks, Wasserman, and Thronton will be back. Probably Boone Logan too. They'll add at least 2 relievers, but none will be studs which makes them a risk. Though this would not be as great of a risk as Cisco.

 

So there it is. KW has tied up enough money in crap to make it hard to strengthen this team without weakening it in another area. Sure some of the periphery players like Cintron will be moved to save some salary, but it's not enough to get Torii Hunter and Renteria, unless of course the Sox jack up the payroll.

 

Also, very little of KW's stated goals will be achieved. He wants speed and OBP? Not from this line up. This team has 3 of the slowest guys in the league in Crede, PK and Thome. OBP of this team looks piss poor. And what was it KW said back after 2005 about always having 5 quality starters and hinting toward having veterans. Good luck with that if JG is traded to free up salary. Is Gavin Floyd a quality starter?? maybe, but right now he's a big question mark.

 

 

 

Bob

[Dick Allen]

I don't know about a painter, but he's going to have to be a magician to make this roster championship quality without significantly raising the payroll. The word is ticket prices for this last place team will rise between $1-3. We used to laugh at the Cubs for doing that, and laughed even harder at their fans for paying it. I think Garland is gone, but I just don't see how there will be room for a huge free agent. Gavin Floyd is not a quality starter. Danks ran out of gas after about 90 innings. Contreras is a big question mark. Vazquez as a #2 is a question mark. Buerhle is solid. The bullpen is an absolute mess. I think you're right about painted in a corner here. Some of these contracts cannot be moved. Unfortunately reality isn't setting in in the front office on 35th St. This team is currently worse than almost every other team in baseball,

[3E8]

Gavin Floyd is not a quality starter

Since Coop changed his windup Gavin has 4 quality starts out of 5

[Dick Allen]

Since Coop changed his windup Gavin has 4 quality starts out of 5

I love September evaluations.

[greg775]

What would our payroll be if we added Hunter, traded for a Renteria-caliber shortstop (or is Renteria a free agent?) and traded for a veteran middle reliever.

I would be willing to trade Vazzy for one of the parts mentioned.

Wouldn't this be a good step toward fixing the team?

 

New cf in Hunter. New ss. Good middle reliever from somewhere, trade either Vazzy or Garland.

 

[SoxAce]

I love September evaluations.

 

Did Pratt brainwash you? Did he make buddahs to seize your hate for eternity on Floyd?

[Gregory Pratt]

I love September evaluations.

 

Besides that, one of these outings was in the rain and the other against Detroit was, if watched carefully, one with good results but he gave up some deep shots that are bombs anywhere but Detroit. He's not to be counted on for anything other than fifth starter and that's probably being nice.

[Gregory Pratt]

Did Pratt brainwash you? Did he make buddahs to seize your hate for eternity on Floyd?

 

 

You're better than this. Even though you still love Reed.

[SoxAce]

 

You're better than this. Even though you still love Reed.

 

Jeremy Reed is the greatest ballplayer to ever graze the baseball field no doubt. And my man love for him has nothing to do with this.

[3E8]

Besides that, one of these outings was in the rain and the other against Detroit was, if watched carefully, one with good results but he gave up some deep shots that are bombs anywhere but Detroit. He's not to be counted on for anything other than fifth starter and that's probably being nice.

Shouldn't there be something said for having to pitch in the rain? Getting rotation on wet leather is difficult. After the rain picked up, Floyd and Carmona starting throwing two-seamers almost exclusively. Anyway, I don't think anyone here would count on Floyd to be more than a fifth starter. But if he could give us more quality starts than not at league minimum from that spot, it would be nice. I think people would be surprised if they looked at the quality start percentage of both our staff and other pitchers around the AL.

[Chisoxfn]

I don't get it...Floyd has had two quality starts agains the Detroit Tigers (one of the best teams in baseball) and a quality start agains the Cleveland Indians (one of the best teams in baseball). Last I looked those teams are also in the thick of a race and contending like hell.

 

ITs not like Floyd is beating up on the Royals or Drays who truly have nothing to play. The Indians/Tigers are busting there balls and they aren't about to play soft just cause they are playing the Sox...no way no hell, they know that bottom line the Sox still have talent (the team just has lost its urgency after it completely collapsed during interleague play).

 

This team is much better than the team thats played this year. Unfortunately I still don't know when better if it will be able to put it all together (and yes I am on the record right now as saying this same team back next year wins at least 10 more games, probably 15) but I also don't say that is good enough to make the playoffs either.

 

We won't see the same team back either (and I'm happy about that) but I also want this squad to move some vets for young talent to try and put themselves in a better position to succeed in the next couple years as well as to prevent a massive collapse that makes seasons like this year more of the same on the Southside.

[Chisoxfn]

Shouldn't there be something said for having to pitch in the rain? Getting rotation on wet leather is difficult. After the rain picked up, Floyd and Carmona starting throwing two-seamers almost exclusively. Anyway, I don't think anyone here would count on Floyd to be more than a fifth starter. But if he could give us more quality starts than not at league minimum from that spot, it would be nice. I think people would be surprised if they looked at the quality start percentage of both our staff and other pitchers around the AL.

Sans a few hiccups (ie when s*** hit the fan and you can't blame them...at one point or another the starters had to say f*** this and lose focus or just have all the pressure hit them as they were doing everything and than some and still getting f***ed thanks to piss poor defense, no offense, and the worse bullpen I"ve ever seen for a couple month span) this is still one fo the better rotations in the AL and baseball.

[Rowand44]

I love September evaluations.

So Cleveland and Detroit are mailing it in? I don't get it. You and Pratt wont give Gavin a chance. He automatically sucked to both of you before he made one single pitch for this team.

[fathom]

Sans a few hiccups (ie when s*** hit the fan and you can't blame them...at one point or another the starters had to say f*** this and lose focus or just have all the pressure hit them as they were doing everything and than some and still getting f***ed thanks to piss poor defense, no offense, and the worse bullpen I"ve ever seen for a couple month span) this is still one fo the better rotations in the AL and baseball.

 

How do you figure? It's arguably the worst rotation in the AL Central. For the last 3 months or so, Contreras and Danks have had a hard time getting more outs than base runners allowed. Considering how much money is invested in our starting pitching, they've brutally underachieved the last two seasons.

[Rowand44]

How do you figure? It's arguably the worst rotation in the AL Central. For the last 3 months or so, Contreras and Danks have had a hard time getting more outs than base runners allowed. Considering how much money is invested in our starting pitching, they've brutally underachieved the last two seasons.

We have a real good core for a rotation. Buehrle and Vazquez are a solid 1-2, Garland is an above average starter, we have 2 youngsters who have shown flashes and then a 94 year old who needs to find a new employer. A lot could possibly depend on Danks and Floyd next season(we'll see how things work out) but the rotation is the least of our problems right now.

[kwolf68]

 

 

I predict he'll find another grinder (eckstein), commit to Owens in CF, trade Jon Garland for a couple middle relief pitchers, and talk about how the championship team is in place.

 

I'd like to see full-scale alteration of this team...from bullpen to infield to outfield. I want to see guys that can hit and run, not guys who can hit, but not run or guys who can run but can't hit.

 

The days of Darrin Erstad in the 5 hole or playing a corner spot have to end. No more lineups with no one over .320 OBP. I figure we'll bring in more aging, injury proned veterans on the downside of their career...the Sox will finish last again and we'll look to the minors for talent it just doesn't possess (with the exception of a couple good pitching prospects).

 

I have no faith in this team or the leadership of it. Williams isn't interested in a full-scale rebuilding situation...he wants to trade talent to patch holes on this jalope of a team. Keep in mind, we don't need to pass only Detroit, Cleveland and Minnehaha...but also Kansas City. We are a last place team with last place talent and a couple 'veteran pen arms' will do little to change that fact. This team is broken down, full of washed up veterans and terrible younger players...this is the worst team I've seen in Chicago since 1989 and probably worse than that team.

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

So Cleveland and Detroit are mailing it in? I don't get it. You and Pratt wont give Gavin a chance. He automatically sucked to both of you before he made one single pitch for this team.

He did suck before he threw one pitch for the Sox, check his performance in Philadelphia. As far as I can tell, even with his September awakening his ERA this season is near 6.00. Maybe you think that's outstanding, but I think it sucks.

[hitlesswonder]

We have a real good core for a rotation. Buehrle and Vazquez are a solid 1-2, Garland is an above average starter, we have 2 youngsters who have shown flashes and then a 94 year old who needs to find a new employer. A lot could possibly depend on Danks and Floyd next season(we'll see how things work out) but the rotation is the least of our problems right now.

 

The Sox rotation is bad. It just looks good compared to the rest of the team. Buehrle is above average. Vazquez is a 4.5 ERA or worse pitcher having a fluke year (doesn't mean he's bad, just not above average). Garland is average. And no one else is good. In 2008, it will be the worst rotation in the AL Central.

[hitlesswonder]

He did suck before he threw one pitch for the Sox, check his performance in Philadelphia. As far as I can tell, even with his September awakening his ERA this season is near 6.00. Maybe you think that's outstanding, but I think it sucks.

Luke Hudson had a string of games last year where he pitched a really well against contending teams. Amazingly, it turned out that he wasn't the second coming of Chris Carpenter or Roy Halladay. Floyd having a couple of decent starts in bad weather and at DET where HRs become outs means absolutely nothing.

[witesoxfan]

He did suck before he threw one pitch for the Sox, check his performance in Philadelphia. As far as I can tell, even with his September awakening his ERA this season is near 6.00. Maybe you think that's outstanding, but I think it sucks.

 

Jake Westbrook sucked with the Yankees too. He turned out all right.

[Dick Allen]

Jake Westbrook sucked with the Yankees too. He turned out all right.

You're right. The 6 2/3 innings he pitched for the Yankees when he was 22 were godawful.

[Chisoxfn]

How do you figure? It's arguably the worst rotation in the AL Central. For the last 3 months or so, Contreras and Danks have had a hard time getting more outs than base runners allowed. Considering how much money is invested in our starting pitching, they've brutally underachieved the last two seasons.

Well, Cleveland/Minny/Detroit all have some of the best rotations in baseball and no way is the Sox rotation worse than the Royals.

 

Plus I still like Danks and while things have gotten rough I also think you have to factor in the horrific pen leading to an eventual wall that these starters hit (because you can only so long with getting royally screwed till you start to think you have to pitch absolutely perfect to win and in turn end up giving up more runs because you get into a funk trying to pitch perfect).

[Dick Allen]

A question I have is why aren't guys like Masset and Aardsma now with the team. They would seem to have a better shot at the 2008 roster than Bukvich or Myers, and you never know you may have a 15 inning game and probably can use one.

[29andPoplar]

A question I have is why aren't guys like Masset and Aardsma now with the team. They would seem to have a better shot at the 2008 roster than Bukvich or Myers, and you never know you may have a 15 inning game and probably can use one.

 

Masset had the same question.

 

The party line was direct from Williams' mouth, he said he promoted only on merit and wasn't going to promote anyone, as in no one at all.

 

Guillen then asked for a 3rd catcher which is why Lucy is here, and on merit Lucy should candidly not be here.

 

Guillen then said he wanted two pitchers he hadn't seen who could give him innings in the case of a possible 15 inning game as you mentioned. Regier recommended Heath Phillips and Lance Broadway as the two most deserving, of those Guillen hadn't seen.

 

Agree or otherwise, those are the reasons.

 

Personally I think it goes one step deeper on both Masset and Aardsma. Both have some mental issues to work on and it is my opinion the Sox org. wanted to give both a mental break after bad seasons where neither came close to expectations.

[NorthSideSox72]

Masset had the same question.

 

The party line was direct from Williams' mouth, he said he promoted only on merit and wasn't going to promote anyone, as in no one at all.

 

Guillen then asked for a 3rd catcher which is why Lucy is here, and on merit Lucy should candidly not be here.

 

Guillen then said he wanted two pitchers he hadn't seen who could give him innings in the case of a possible 15 inning game as you mentioned. Regier recommended Heath Phillips and Lance Broadway as the two most deserving, of those Guillen hadn't seen.

 

Agree or otherwise, those are the reasons.

 

Personally I think it goes one step deeper on both Masset and Aardsma. Both have some mental issues to work on and it is my opinion the Sox org. wanted to give both a mental break after bad seasons where neither came close to expectations.

I think that's the key there in bold - Ozzie, the organization, and other organizations as well, hadn't yet seen Phillips or Broadway. They had already seen Aardsma and Masset.

 

But that still doesn't answer the question of why Bourgeois isn't here, which to me is the most surprising part of the September call-ups.