Is KW a painter???

[fathom]

Well, Cleveland/Minny/Detroit all have some of the best rotations in baseball and no way is the Sox rotation worse than the Royals.

 

Plus I still like Danks and while things have gotten rough I also think you have to factor in the horrific pen leading to an eventual wall that these starters hit (because you can only so long with getting royally screwed till you start to think you have to pitch absolutely perfect to win and in turn end up giving up more runs because you get into a funk trying to pitch perfect).

 

KC has Bannister, Meche, and Greinke looking as a solid 3 in the rotation, and Odalis Perez and De la Rosa have been no worse than the Contreras/Danks combination.

[witesoxfan]

You're right. The 6 2/3 innings he pitched for the Yankees when he was 22 were godawful.

 

Sorry, just a slight memory mis-recollection.

 

Compare Gavin Floyd's first 100-120 innings in the majors to Jake Westbrook's. Compare how old they were when they came up, and what their peripherals looked like. And then compare their stuff to one another's. Personally, I believe they are very similar. That's the comparison I would make, and have made for about the past month or two.

[Dick Allen]

Sorry, just a slight memory mis-recollection.

 

Compare Gavin Floyd's first 100-120 innings in the majors to Jake Westbrook's. Compare how old they were when they came up, and what their peripherals looked like. And then compare their stuff to one another's. Personally, I believe they are very similar. That's the comparison I would make, and have made for about the past month or two.

Floyd's ERA is about 1.40 higher but Westbrook wasn't exactly Dwight Gooden. At that point most of Westbrook's appearances were out of the bullpen. Floyd's WHIP is higher and had allowed almost 3 times the homers. I wonder how many pitchers have as many major league innings under their belt as Floyd and have an ERA the same or higher. There can't be many. Maybe he will be good one day. I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it happens, but if the White Sox are counting on him for 2008 and saying they plan to contend, they are either fooling themselves or trying to fool their fans.

[Dick Allen]

Sorry, just a slight memory mis-recollection.

 

Compare Gavin Floyd's first 100-120 innings in the majors to Jake Westbrook's. Compare how old they were when they came up, and what their peripherals looked like. And then compare their stuff to one another's. Personally, I believe they are very similar. That's the comparison I would make, and have made for about the past month or two.

Floyd's ERA is about 1.40 higher but Westbrook wasn't exactly Dwight Gooden. At that point most of Westbrook's appearances were out of the bullpen. Floyd's WHIP is higher and had allowed almost 3 times the homers. I wonder how many pitchers have as many major league innings under their belt as Floyd and have an ERA the same or higher. There can't be many. Maybe he will be good one day. I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it happens, but if the White Sox are counting on him for 2008 and saying they plan to contend,based on a couple of September starts, they are either fooling themselves or trying to fool their fans.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Dick Allen

[29andPoplar]

But that still doesn't answer the question of why Bourgeois isn't here, which to me is the most surprising part of the September call-ups.

 

NorthSide, I was equally surprised and I believe they will add him to the 40 man before the Rule 5. My best guess is they didn't want to outright anyone off the 40 man in September, preferring to do it after the year is over, and they didn't want Richar looking over his shoulder, for the time being anyway.

[Flash Tizzle]

Well, Cleveland/Minny/Detroit all have some of the best rotations in baseball and no way is the Sox rotation worse than the Royals.

It's just unfortunate those three teams play within the same division as us. Not enough to shrug our shoulders and say "it is what it is." We have to match those starting rotations if we want any chance of competing next season and beyond. I just don't believe it's very realistic. Atleast until DLS emerges as the ace I've already appointed him as.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Allsox]

1B- PK. He is one of the 3 most marketable players on the Sox both for PR and being tradable. He also posts an above league average OBP but is a base clogger. Do you trade the capitain?

You can't say his OBP is good but he's a base clogger. The object in baseball as a hitter is to not make an out. Not Paulie's fault the next guy can't move him over or drive him in.

 

2B-Richar-I like him and think he'll be good. He's fast, has good strike zone judgement and makes the minimum. I think he can post an aove average OBP and be a decent stolen base threat

I agree.

 

SS-BLANK Could be anyone as long as it's not Uribe. Will it be Eckstein? Renteria? I doubt it's A-Rod. Eckstein is the cheap alternative who is on the downside of his career. Renteria makes $9 mill next year but may be traded this off season by ATL. No to Vizquel.

Uribe best option. Eckstein's range sucks and so does his OBP for a leadoff guy. A-Rod would be nice but we'll see.

 

3B-Crede Coming off back surgery so it does make one wonder how many games he'll be good for. If healthy will be a base clogger, have an average OBP and play gold glove D.

Again, someone who gets on-base isn't a base clogger. He's doing the job by not making an out. Sounding like Dusty Baker here

 

LF-Fields-I like him and see good things for him. Average speed, needs to take more walks.

Needs to cut down strikeouts but will learn.

 

CF-BLANK-LIke SS, an On Base machine would be nice here. Torii Hunter would cost about $14 mill per year. No to Rowand as he is so overrated it's sick. Andruw Jones is not an option due to Boras.

Trouble spot for KW to fill as Owens doesn't do much.

 

RF-Dye-Just signed with some sort of no trade clause. Makes $11 mill per year and is injury prone. He was signed because the farm system sucks. No way he repeats 2006, but is still a threat with potential for above average OBP but is a base clogger.

Again, someone who doesn't make an out is DOING HIS JOB AS AN OFFENSIVE HITTER!

 

C-Pierzynski-Don't know if the pitchers hate him or not, but he's by far the best catcher the Sox have. Oh yeah, he's another base clogger.

Wow, another guy who gets on base but it's his fault the next guy doesn't drive him in

 

DH-Thome-On base stud but power is decreasing. Not the hitter he was and has no trade clause. Base Clogger.

Best hitter on the team due to his eye at the plate. And again, another hitter who does his job by getting on base.

 

 

Is this a championship calibe offense. 6 power hitting base cloggers. We've seen all too often what happens when they slump all at once.

 

Base cloggers mean getting on-base. That's a good thing!

 

[hitlesswonder]

KC has Bannister, Meche, and Greinke looking as a solid 3 in the rotation, and Odalis Perez and De la Rosa have been no worse than the Contreras/Danks combination.

Thanks -- people really need to look at the stats before declaring everyone on the Royals sucks. the 5 man rotation the Royals have now will be better than the Sox rotation next season (subtract Vazquez or Garland and add Floyd).

[Rowand44]

Bannister will get mashed around next season as well.

[gosox41]

"Base cloggers mean getting on-base. That's a good thing!"

-Allsox

 

 

By base cloggers I mean guys who are no threat to steal, rarely break up DP's and lack the speed to take the extra base and eliminate the force. They're one dimensional hitters--they hit for power. Also, Thome and PK are the only 2 "base cloggers' this year on the Sox wh hae higher then the league average OBP of .335.

 

 

So AJ and his .318 OBP isn't even the league average, nor is Dye and his .317. Let's hope they go back to their career norm next year as that would put them average for the league.

 

Besides it's been KW who's preaching guys be more like Thome and work counts and focus getting on base.

Thome's OBP is .409 this year. Let me know when Dye and Pierzinski get to .375 for a full season let alone .400.

 

If KW wants to build this team on speed and OBP then all I'm saying is he not getting the right personnel.

If KW wanted older pwoer hitters who can't run but can jack out 30 HR's a year and strike out a lot, then he's doing an excellent job of putting that together.

 

 

 

Bob

 

[Allsox]

"Base cloggers mean getting on-base. That's a good thing!"

-Allsox

By base cloggers I mean guys who are no threat to steal, rarely break up DP's and lack the speed to take the extra base and eliminate the force. They're one dimensional hitters--they hit for power. Also, Thome and PK are the only 2 "base cloggers' this year on the Sox wh hae higher then the league average OBP of .335.

So AJ and his .318 OBP isn't even the league average, nor is Dye and his .317. Let's hope they go back to their career norm next year as that would put them average for the league.

 

Besides it's been KW who's preaching guys be more like Thome and work counts and focus getting on base.

Thome's OBP is .409 this year. Let me know when Dye and Pierzinski get to .375 for a full season let alone .400.

 

If KW wants to build this team on speed and OBP then all I'm saying is he not getting the right personnel.

If KW wanted older pwoer hitters who can't run but can jack out 30 HR's a year and strike out a lot, then he's doing an excellent job of putting that together.

Bob

 

Yes, Thome and Konerko are power hitters, power hitters that when they aren't hitting the ball out, they're working over the pitcher by drawing walks, driving the pitcher's pitch count up and having to force the pitcher to pitch from the stretch and throw strikes to the next batter. Thus, increasing the next batter's chances of driving them home or, heaven forbid, moving them up at least one base so the next guy has an opportunity to drive them in. David Ortiz does that as well and is just as fast (Or slow) as them, yet I don't hear Red Sox Nation calling him a base clogger.

 

I agree about AJ, he rarely walks but he also hits usually .270 with 15+ HRs for a catcher. I can take that good with his bad anytime from that position. The same goes for Dye.

 

[gosox41]

Yes, Thome and Konerko are power hitters, power hitters that when they aren't hitting the ball out, they're working over the pitcher by drawing walks, driving the pitcher's pitch count up and having to force the pitcher to pitch from the stretch and throw strikes to the next batter. Thus, increasing the next batter's chances of driving them home or, heaven forbid, moving them up at least one base so the next guy has an opportunity to drive them in. David Ortiz does that as well and is just as fast (Or slow) as them, yet I don't hear Red Sox Nation calling him a base clogger.

 

I agree about AJ, he rarely walks but he also hits usually .270 with 15+ HRs for a catcher. I can take that good with his bad anytime from that position. The same goes for Dye.

 

 

I appreciate what Thome and PK bring to the table and realize their value of high OBP. I wish we had a team out guys who at last carried a .350 OBP.

 

 

So you're betting what KW is betting, that Dye and AJ had fluke bad years and will bounce back next season to their career norms (which for Dye is .338 OBP and .327 for AJ). Now let's add Crede to the mix, he has an OBP of .305 for his career and his best year, 2006 was at .323.

 

So now we essentially have 3 slow guys who aren't so good at getting on. Of these5 guys I mentioned above, 2 have bad backs incluiing one coming off surgery and one who is in his upper 30's. One plays the most physically demanding position on the field and gets banged around, and one has a histoy of fluke injuries. That leaves PK as the most reliable statistically and physically.

 

All these guys have value, but KW is taking a big gamble in relying on these guys to be the core. He better get some solid complementaty players to back these guys up because we've seen way too many times what happens when the core players slump...we suck offensively.

 

KW is the guy preaching OBP and speed. I agree with it. He needs to execute his strategy. Am I saying dump all 5 of these guys--heck no. If you assume Fields in Richar are going to be in teh starting line up next year then KW better pick up a damn good CFer and SS who can be more then a threat to hit a home run or else we're in for more pain next year.

 

 

Bob

[Gregory Pratt]

John Schuerholz is a poet. Former teacher. Lots of things.

 

But no, a couple of comments:

 

I appreciate what Thome and PK bring to the table and realize their value of high OBP. I wish we had a team out guys who at last carried a .350 OBP.

 

 

So you're betting what KW is betting, that Dye and AJ had fluke bad years and will bounce back next season to their career norms (which for Dye is .338 OBP and .327 for AJ). Now let's add Crede to the mix, he has an OBP of .305 for his career and his best year, 2006 was at .323.

 

So now we essentially have 3 slow guys who aren't so good at getting on. Of these5 guys I mentioned above, 2 have bad backs incluiing one coming off surgery and one who is in his upper 30's. One plays the most physically demanding position on the field and gets banged around, and one has a histoy of fluke injuries. That leaves PK as the most reliable statistically and physically.

 

All these guys have value, but KW is taking a big gamble in relying on these guys to be the core. He better get some solid complementaty players to back these guys up because we've seen way too many times what happens when the core players slump...we suck offensively.

 

KW is the guy preaching OBP and speed. I agree with it. He needs to execute his strategy. Am I saying dump all 5 of these guys--heck no. If you assume Fields in Richar are going to be in teh starting line up next year then KW better pick up a damn good CFer and SS who can be more then a threat to hit a home run or else we're in for more pain next year.

 

The thing that might be worse is, say, Konerko starts his decline, AJ declines due to age and catching age, Dye has a "typical" year or worse, Thome misses significant time and keeps losing power and worst of all, Richar and Fields show their success this year isnt' permanent and have bad years. We'd be left with nothing on offense, and it's very possible that our two rooks hit the wall like many rooks in their second year. That's not to mention what we'll be like if Jerry Owens is in the lineup and Uribe? Ouch babe.

 

The pitching, too, isn't quite a lock for much next year.

 

I can't wait until we get through this offseason because I really want to see what we wind up with.