The CTA Doomsday Plan

[NorthSideSox72]

So as all of you Chicago folks have been seeing and reading, the State of Illinois failed to pass a bill to enhance funding for CTA, Metra and Pace (they actually passed the bill, but not by the super-majority needed to override Blago's veto). The last attempt was to be funded via a quarter-percent sales tax increase in the collar counties and Chicago, in addition to an increase in the real estate transfer tax. Blago says he would veto any plan that included any sort of tax increase. This all means that the CTA goes into their "Doomsday Plan" as of this coming Monday - eliminating many bus routes, cutting back schedules, stopping capital improvements to support operations, and raising fares.

 

Then today, this comes out. The NTSB, while investigating the cause of the July, 2006 CTA derailment and fire, found that the CTA in general is rampant with problems of all sorts, many of which directly result in poor safety procedures and conditions. Part of the fault they say is with the CTA, part also with a failure to recognize the investment needed to maintain such a transit network.

 

So, here is the dilemma. In order to properly and safely maintain Chicago's massive transit system, and in order to be able to actually expand it with growth in the area, a large investment is needed. Or, they can not invest in it, and services are cut dramatically, growth and updates of the systems stop, and the system begins to crumble. But, we already live in a metro area with fairly high taxes (not the highest, but high), so its tough to imagine even more taxes and fees being added on. What to do?

 

Here is one aspect that I'd suggest people forget - by not investing in mass transit, its not like you actually save any money overall. Because what happens is, you put far more cars on the road, you bring in less new revenue because communities can't grow, and you increase maintenance costs of roads, bridges, etc. Not to mention the gajillion dollars you lose in productivity when everyone sits in traffic for an extra 20 minutes. And increases in pollution (health care costs?), and other side effects. So I think to simply say "we can't afford it" is missing the big picture.

 

My suggestion - get the revenue from an increase in both the gasoline tax and the sales tax on vehicles, throughout the metro area, combined with small fare increases for all transit. This, essentially, becomes a use tax. You increase the direct fees, but also increase the cost for those using other transportation which ultimately costs the state even more money. Further, this encourages higher use levels of mass transit, which will benefit all of us.

 

What would you do?

 

[Balta1701]

"The finger thing means the taxes!"

[NorthSideSox72]

Oh sorry, should have added... Blago has proposed removing some corporate tax "loopholes" to cover this funding. Sounds great, right? Well, not exactly. Some of those "loopholes" are tax reductions targetted specifically at keeping businesses in Chicago and in Illinois. For example, an exemption on sales tax on leased software (large scale stuff used by businesses) for companies in Illinois, selling to companies in Illinois. You remove those loopholes, you increase costs for businesses all over the state, and some of them might flee for other states with more favorable tax regimens.

 

I do see what Blago is getting at there, but I think those indirect approaches aren't ideal, because you again just shift the cost elsewhere. Better to increase revenue within the world of transit, than outside of it, to fund it.

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

Does Freedom only cost a buck o' five in Blago's plan?

[StrangeSox]

Oh sorry, should have added... Blago has proposed removing some corporate tax "loopholes" to cover this funding. Sounds great, right? Well, not exactly. Some of those "loopholes" are tax reductions targetted specifically at keeping businesses in Chicago and in Illinois. For example, an exemption on sales tax on leased software (large scale stuff used by businesses) for companies in Illinois, selling to companies in Illinois. You remove those loopholes, you increase costs for businesses all over the state, and some of them might flee for other states with more favorable tax regimens.

 

I do see what Blago is getting at there, but I think those indirect approaches aren't ideal, because you again just shift the cost elsewhere. Better to increase revenue within the world of transit, than outside of it, to fund it.

 

 

People seem to forget where corporations get the money that they pay their taxes with.

[Jenksismyhero]

To me the entire system is crap. When I first moved up here a few years ago I thought the El was one of the nicer commuter systems in the country, but after visiting cities like DC (the best), Boston, New York, etc, it really pales in comparison. It's dirty, frequently late, and especially these last few years, really slow because of all the construction.

 

It's clear too that management is piss poor. Did you hear that if they go ahead with their doomsday plan it's going to cost the CTA 2 million just to implement it. And then if the state eventually decides to give them the money it'll cost them 5 million to get the system back to 'normal.' What is that all about?

 

My solution to increase revenue: get rid of this stupid rate system. People traveling from Evanston to the Loop should not pay the same as someone who goes from Grand or Clark/Division to the Loop. It's asinine. Every other major metro area has different zones with an increased price the farther out you go. Why Chicago still doesn't do this is beyond me.

 

I'd be ok if the state 'bailed' out the CTA because of unseen circumstances that took a toll on the CTA's books, like a natural disaster taking out a station and some track. But this problem is based purely on piss-poor management. Change management and give them the money. Don't just hand over a check so they'll screw it up again.

 

And I won't even bother discussing the bus drivers/train conductors who somehow are pulling in 75k+ a year in salary...

 

[StrangeSox]

My solution to increase revenue: get rid of this stupid rate system. People traveling from Evanston to the Loop should not pay the same as someone who goes from Grand or Clark/Division to the Loop. It's asinine. Every other major metro area has different zones with an increased price the farther out you go. Why Chicago still doesn't do this is beyond me.

 

FWIW, Metra works this way. And, taking the trains last summer, Metra was on-time except for two or three delays.

[RockRaines]

To me the entire system is crap. When I first moved up here a few years ago I thought the El was one of the nicer commuter systems in the country, but after visiting cities like DC (the best), Boston, New York, etc, it really pales in comparison. It's dirty, frequently late, and especially these last few years, really slow because of all the construction.

 

It's clear too that management is piss poor. Did you hear that if they go ahead with their doomsday plan it's going to cost the CTA 2 million just to implement it. And then if the state eventually decides to give them the money it'll cost them 5 million to get the system back to 'normal.' What is that all about?

 

My solution to increase revenue: get rid of this stupid rate system. People traveling from Evanston to the Loop should not pay the same as someone who goes from Grand or Clark/Division to the Loop. It's asinine. Every other major metro area has different zones with an increased price the farther out you go. Why Chicago still doesn't do this is beyond me.

 

I'd be ok if the state 'bailed' out the CTA because of unseen circumstances that took a toll on the CTA's books, like a natural disaster taking out a station and some track. But this problem is based purely on piss-poor management. Change management and give them the money. Don't just hand over a check so they'll screw it up again.

 

And I won't even bother discussing the bus drivers/train conductors who somehow are pulling in 75k+ a year in salary...

You are spot on about the DC system, its not only clean, but extremely quiet, well organized and on time. As far as the othr cities, Chicago isnt half bad comparative wise. NYC is much dirtier, LA has none to speak of. The 2 dollar rise from anywhere to anywhere is the best thing that our system has going. Of course this is an increase over the previous fares. The bus systems are shoddy and very unpredictable unless you ride the #20 which is satellite tracked and very new. The entire EL system needs not only a cleaning job, but also a huge upgrade in the safety. The tracks are extremely dangerous and unlike other cities poses the danger of an entire train falling off the tracks. It is also very unpredictable and most likely always late. This construction seems to be one of the worst planned projects in recent chicago history. They obviously threw together plans with no regard for the consumer.

 

With this all said, the CTA needs to be kept running and also upgraded. More and more, people are flocking to the city of chicago. We have seen tremendous growth in our neighborhoods in the last several years. 5 years ago I wouldnt even want to walk through my neighborhood, and it is now called one of the hottest in the city. With these people, we have actually increased traffic. Because of this, the need for improved and updated public transportation is needed. One of Daley's largest selling points for the olympics is the ease of using our public trans system. If anyone has been to europe, do you think that our EL system would compare to the ease of use over there? Not even close. Living in chicago, I have already experienced the higher-than-high sales tax, liquor tax, tobacco tax, and the highest gas prices in the country. There has to be some way to dig up funding without adding yet more money to my purchases that i am giving to the city. Our property taxes are bad enough. Someone needs to take the hit, and for this one, it shouldnt be the consumer.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

From $1.75 per ride to get to and from work to $3.00 there and back is bulls***...

[Jenksismyhero]

From $1.75 per ride to get to and from work to $3.00 there and back is bulls***...

 

 

That's the other thing no one is really talking about. You can't raise the prices much more or you will lose riders. If it's going to cost me an extra 3-4 bucks to take a cab and get somewhere 10 times as fast, why would I waste my time taking mass transit? Or if I'm going to drop that much why not just get a car? It might cost me more, but it sure is less of a hassle and a hellsofalot more sanitary.

 

I'm lucky because I'm a student and pay $75 for an entire semester of free rides. But come December when I'm done and will be shoveling out $30-35 a week on the train/bus I'll be looking for alternative means of transportation.

[Rex Kickass]

To me the entire system is crap. When I first moved up here a few years ago I thought the El was one of the nicer commuter systems in the country, but after visiting cities like DC (the best), Boston, New York, etc, it really pales in comparison. It's dirty, frequently late, and especially these last few years, really slow because of all the construction.

 

It's clear too that management is piss poor. Did you hear that if they go ahead with their doomsday plan it's going to cost the CTA 2 million just to implement it. And then if the state eventually decides to give them the money it'll cost them 5 million to get the system back to 'normal.' What is that all about?

 

My solution to increase revenue: get rid of this stupid rate system. People traveling from Evanston to the Loop should not pay the same as someone who goes from Grand or Clark/Division to the Loop. It's asinine. Every other major metro area has different zones with an increased price the farther out you go. Why Chicago still doesn't do this is beyond me.

 

I'd be ok if the state 'bailed' out the CTA because of unseen circumstances that took a toll on the CTA's books, like a natural disaster taking out a station and some track. But this problem is based purely on piss-poor management. Change management and give them the money. Don't just hand over a check so they'll screw it up again.

 

And I won't even bother discussing the bus drivers/train conductors who somehow are pulling in 75k+ a year in salary...

 

It costs $2 to take the entire A train line and that's 32 miles long. There is no zone system on the MTA subways and buses.

This is a problem that is based on piss-poor management and a funding formula that favors PACE and Metra and disadvantages the CTA to the point where necessary service on rolling stock and infrastructure has been delayed and cancelled. The system is close to breaking - mostly because the funding was never there.

[Mplssoxfan]

Yes, the DC train system (the metro) is really good. The buses in DC? Ye gods, an abomination.

 

But I assume that's true of buses in most places.

[southsider2k5]

OK here is the golden opportunity. If you really want to get people off of fossil fuels there is some combination of two things you need to have happen. First of all you need to price people off of gasoline and oil. Second you need to make mass transit so attractive, that people prefer it to their cars. Quit cutting service and raising prices. There needs to be increases in service and cuts in prices. For all of the BS about beating the oil companies the Dems are missing the easiest way to cut into their profits, and that is by killing demand through a world class mass transit system. Forget windfall taxes and eliminating subsidies, you need to give alternatives, instead of just making gasoline more expensive.

[Rex Kickass]

Yes, the DC train system (the metro) is really good. The buses in DC? Ye gods, an abomination.

 

But I assume that's true of buses in most places.

 

DC Metro is really not that convenient for most DC residents. It's really more designed for tourists according to my friends who live there.

[mr_genius]

My suggestion - get the revenue from an increase in both the gasoline tax and the sales tax on vehicles, throughout the metro area, combined with small fare increases for all transit. This, essentially, becomes a use tax.

 

What would you do?

 

 

two problems with your solution IMO

 

1) Chicago area already has the highest gas prices in the country, we are already severely over taxed.

 

2) Counties other than Cook should not have to pay for Chicago's wasteful ways. Example, I don't think higher sales tax in Lake County should be implemented to pay guys to sit around in trucks making $90,000 a year in Chicago.

 

 

 

My solution: No extra money. I would force them to become more efficient. Let mayor Daley and the city council shut down the trains, call his bluff. He won't do it, he'll be forced to cut some waste.

[Jenksismyhero]

My solution: No extra money. I would force them to become more efficient. Let mayor Daley and the city council shut down the trains, call his bluff. He won't do it, he'll be forced to cut some waste.

 

 

Agree completely.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

[RockRaines]

two problems with your solution IMO

 

1) Chicago area already has the highest gas prices in the country, we are already severely over taxed.

 

2) Counties other than Cook should not have to pay for Chicago's wasteful ways. Example, I don't think higher sales tax in Lake County should be implemented to pay guys to sit around in trucks making $90,000 a year in Chicago.

My solution: No extra money. I would force them to become more efficient. Let mayor Daley and the city council shut down the trains, call his bluff. He won't do it, he'll be forced to cut some waste.

Why wouldnt you tax people who live out of Cook? Over 70 percent of the people taking up the roadways and the parking in the city are commuting from the suburbs outside of chicago. These people are using up chicago's resources just as much if not more than the actual residents.

[Gregory Pratt]

Looks like a bluff to me. If not, they're going to destroy themselves.

[mr_genius]

Why wouldnt you tax people who live out of Cook? Over 70 percent of the people taking up the roadways and the parking in the city are commuting from the suburbs outside of chicago. These people are using up chicago's resources just as much if not more than the actual residents.

 

 

The highways are federally funded, they will not be affected. Parking is actually a source of income for the city; ranging from meters, to paid parking to tickets issued. So parking isn't costing money. Also, a claim that 70% of people who use CTA are from the suburbs doesn't sound accurate to me. I live in Chicago and use CTA, I'd say the vast majority of people on the trains and buses live in Chicago. A lot of the supposed "collar counties", which could potentially be taxed for Chicago, have a majority of residents who don't use CTA at all... so why should they pay for Chicago corruption with higher sales tax?

 

Honestly, it would work out great for me to have everyone else pay for this mess, because I sure don't want to... but don't think it is reasonable to expect all other counties to pay for Cook's mess. Also, A lot of people travel from Chicago to the burbs for work, so should we have to start paying for DuPage county stuff if the the mayor of Naperville screws up the cities budget?

Edited September 12, 2007 by mr_genius

[southsider2k5]

two problems with your solution IMO

 

1) Chicago area already has the highest gas prices in the country, we are already severely over taxed.

 

2) Counties other than Cook should not have to pay for Chicago's wasteful ways. Example, I don't think higher sales tax in Lake County should be implemented to pay guys to sit around in trucks making $90,000 a year in Chicago.

My solution: No extra money. I would force them to become more efficient. Let mayor Daley and the city council shut down the trains, call his bluff. He won't do it, he'll be forced to cut some waste.

 

So you would get into a pissing contest with Rich Daley? LMAO.

[NorthSideSox72]

The highways are federally funded, they will not be affected. Parking is actually a source of income for the city; ranging from meters, to paid parking to tickets issued. So parking isn't costing money. Also, a claim that 70% of people who use CTA are from the suburbs doesn't sound accurate to me. I live in Chicago and use CTA, I'd say the vast majority of people on the trains and buses live in Chicago. A lot of the supposed "collar counties", which could potentially be taxed for Chicago, have a majority of residents who don't use CTA at all... so why should they pay for Chicago corruption with higher sales tax?

 

Honestly, it would work out great for me to have everyone else pay for this mess, because I sure don't want to... but don't think it is reasonable to expect all other counties to pay for Cook's mess. Also, A lot of people travel from Chicago to the burbs for work, so should we have to start paying for DuPage county stuff if the the mayor of Naperville screws up the cities budget?

The idea in the last decade was to try to think in terms of regional transit - CTA, Pace and Metra all being part of the RTA's planning. That was recommended by federal and state agencies, and so you have to think of it as a regional service grid. I haven't a clue what percentage of suburbanites use CTA services, but they sure use most of Pace and Metra's services.

 

Something else noted in these articles - even Metra, which seems to be a pretty well-run agency, will start to have major budget problems in 2008 without some help.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Agree completely.

This isn't Daley's bluff - its the CTA's. And in any case, no one at the state or federal level is going to take on Hizzoner in a pissing contest. There would be no contest.

 

I do agree with you, though, that the CTA is (and has been) a clearly, badly managed agency.

 

So let me add this to my earlier proposal - the CTA only gets their share of the money if all upper management is changed over, and then any periodic funding in the future must be earned via efficiency and production measures. Have a consulting firm dig into their practices, and make sure the new management team is actually doing something positive.

 

But even with better management, CTA and the other transit agencies need more money. SS2K5 is right, we need a real push for viable, safe and reliable mass transit if we want to get people out of their cars.

 

[southsideirish71]

Why wouldnt you tax people who live out of Cook? Over 70 percent of the people taking up the roadways and the parking in the city are commuting from the suburbs outside of chicago. These people are using up chicago's resources just as much if not more than the actual residents.

 

Those people who use the parking pay for it and therefore are taxed. Most of those commuters use the highways, which I believe are under state control. I don't work in the city of Chicago. The only time I enter the city really is to go to Sox games, which they are already getting a good chunk of my tax dollar for. My property taxes already dwarf what the average home see's in Chicago, I dont think its fair that I get dinked more for something I dont use.

 

 

[RockRaines]

The highways are federally funded, they will not be affected. Parking is actually a source of income for the city; ranging from meters, to paid parking to tickets issued. So parking isn't costing money. Also, a claim that 70% of people who use CTA are from the suburbs doesn't sound accurate to me. I live in Chicago and use CTA, I'd say the vast majority of people on the trains and buses live in Chicago. A lot of the supposed "collar counties", which could potentially be taxed for Chicago, have a majority of residents who don't use CTA at all... so why should they pay for Chicago corruption with higher sales tax?

 

Honestly, it would work out great for me to have everyone else pay for this mess, because I sure don't want to... but don't think it is reasonable to expect all other counties to pay for Cook's mess. Also, A lot of people travel from Chicago to the burbs for work, so should we have to start paying for DuPage county stuff if the the mayor of Naperville screws up the cities budget?

Nah, I didnt mean 70 percent use the CTA, I meant what I said about the roadways and the parking. Which makes it completely essential for actual chicago residents to use the CTA. Chicago is probably the one thing that everyone who lives in the area uses. There are many people who have never been out to Naperville and used their resources, but Im willing to bet EVERYONE who lives in the area has come to chicago and used it for their own pleasure. It is the reason that people live in this region, and everyone should have to contribute to its upkeeping IMO.