The CTA Doomsday Plan

[Texsox]

You tell me. I have offered the same arguement all along when it comes to growth. The reality on the ground is that people who want better benefits and higher wages are shooting themselves in the foot by allowing a 10% expansion of the labor pool. You don't have to agree with the position of an arguement to be able to understand the fundementals that go with an arguement.

 

Think about it. If you are a part of a group with a certian skill set, do you want more or less people around who also can do your job. Now what if part of that group was willing to work for way less than you could afford to do? What effect do you think that would have on wages? Now why do you think big business is in favor of letting the illegals stay? Its not a big leap to understand it.

 

I'm confused about a 10% expansion of the labor pool. Aren't we talking about people who are already here and earning wages? How would this be an expansion?

 

Yes, I agree a large available, willing, and available pool of workers will keep wages down. It seemed you were saying it is a bad thing, which confused me.

[Cknolls]

I remember reading a statistic that said over 50% of the state budget will go towards paying state pensions by 2050. IIRC.. This system is flawed. Do not expect lawmakers to change the gravy train.. Why isn't there one pension system? Why can Beavers get a pension from CPD, then become an alderman, and get a city pension, then become a Cook Co. Board Member, and get a pension from the county. INSANE. How about George Ryan, he retired with four different pensions.

 

Does anyone here think Cook County is efficient with 26000 employees? I remeber going to the county building to get a marriage license. There was a serpentine line with ropes. Nobody but me and my then fiancee in line. I walked up to the window to apply for the license and the woman told me I had to wait in line.( I was the only one there). After taking my application she told me to procede to another window to pay for the license. When i got to that window I had to wait for the woman to finish eating her food.

 

As Beavers said, "The payroll is already cut to the bone". LMAO.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

So as Sqwert pointed out, the RTA board has to actually approve G-Rod's funding. Until then, things are still up in the air.

 

And here is a nice stick in the eye of those outside the City of Chicago, courtesy of Rod - the emergency funding is only for the CTA. Pace, which supplies bus services in the suburbs, will still have to go into the first phase of their doomsday plan on Monday, and then start cutting routes a few weeks later. Then more massive cuts in November. And even Metra will start having problems come 2008.

 

So, any chance of getting more support from the collar counties is going down the drain with Blago's lack of foresight.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Heh. Blago, realizing his mistake, tacked on a few million for Pace and Metra today.

 

[RockRaines]

Blago is just not that great. Even down in springfield the opinions on him arent very positive.

[NorthSideSox72]

Blago is just not that great. Even down in springfield the opinions on him arent very positive.

Well heck, he is constantly fighting with the state Congress, and they are held by the same party. He can't even figure things out with other Democrats.

 

[BigSqwert]

Well heck, he is constantly fighting with the state Congress, and they are held by the same party. He can't even figure things out with other Democrats.

What do you expect from a Cubs fan?

[mr_genius]

What do you expect from a Cubs fan?

 

Good point BigSqwert

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I remember reading a statistic that said over 50% of the state budget will go towards paying state pensions by 2050. IIRC.. This system is flawed. Do not expect lawmakers to change the gravy train.. Why isn't there one pension system? Why can Beavers get a pension from CPD, then become an alderman, and get a city pension, then become a Cook Co. Board Member, and get a pension from the county. INSANE. How about George Ryan, he retired with four different pensions.

 

Does anyone here think Cook County is efficient with 26000 employees? I remeber going to the county building to get a marriage license. There was a serpentine line with ropes. Nobody but me and my then fiancee in line. I walked up to the window to apply for the license and the woman told me I had to wait in line.( I was the only one there). After taking my application she told me to procede to another window to pay for the license. When i got to that window I had to wait for the woman to finish eating her food.

 

As Beavers said, "The payroll is already cut to the bone". LMAO.

 

 

Cut to the bone huh? LOL!! Unions, and the Democratic politicians who pander to them, are to blame for all of this. I have no sympathy when a governmental agency at any level cries poor and says they need money.

Edited September 14, 2007 by NUKE

[southsider2k5]

What do you expect from a Cubs fan?

 

Now there is a bipartisian agreement waiting to happen

[Texsox]

I have no sympathy when a governmental agency at any level cries poor and says they need money.

 

liar

[kapkomet]

What do you expect from a Cubs fan?

 

Wow, we agree on something.

 

[kapkomet]

I just got done reading this thread, and I will be glad to share "board room" conversations about this whole "bankruptcy" thing from an airline (company) perspective. I was a huge part of putting together financial plans to getting an airline out of bankruptcy, and there's a lot more then meets the eye to this conversation.

 

But right now, since I've been gone for three days, I have four days worth of work to do in one, so I better get at it.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I remember reading a statistic that said over 50% of the state budget will go towards paying state pensions by 2050. IIRC.. This system is flawed. Do not expect lawmakers to change the gravy train.. Why isn't there one pension system? Why can Beavers get a pension from CPD, then become an alderman, and get a city pension, then become a Cook Co. Board Member, and get a pension from the county. INSANE. How about George Ryan, he retired with four different pensions.

 

Does anyone here think Cook County is efficient with 26000 employees? I remeber going to the county building to get a marriage license. There was a serpentine line with ropes. Nobody but me and my then fiancee in line. I walked up to the window to apply for the license and the woman told me I had to wait in line.( I was the only one there). After taking my application she told me to procede to another window to pay for the license. When i got to that window I had to wait for the woman to finish eating her food.

 

As Beavers said, "The payroll is already cut to the bone". LMAO.

 

 

I see this inefficient process just about everyday at the courthouse.

 

Public employees + public process = disaster.

[BigSqwert]

The troubles here are now being highlighted on a national level.

 

Calling Illinois "the poster child for neglect," U.S. Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.) said the political gridlock in Springfield over funding transportation agencies and renewing deteriorating infrastructure cannot be viewed separately from hope of ascending onto the Olympic stage.

 

"It seems that the state and the governor are walking away from a minimal responsibility to maintain an existing system let alone dramatically enhance it," said DeFazio, chairman of the House Highways and Transit Subcommittee. "You're in a full crisis mode, and the whole country is going to be watching this week."

 

"There are some very immediate problems that need to be resolved or there won't be a transit system upon which to build for 2016," he said, adding that state government has "dropped the ball and booted it."

Edited October 29, 2007 by BigSqwert

[NorthSideSox72]

The troubles here are now being highlighted on a national level.

It really has turned into a mess. The Trib ran a headline a few days ago I saw that actually asked if G-Rod should be removed from office. What a debacle.

 

What kills me is, of all the things to cut, transit is a huge mistake. Money going to transit isn't some black hole - it saves a ton of money in other areas of transportation, keeps businesses in the area, puts more spending money in people's wallets, etc. Not to mention that one of the big things touted about Chicago for the Olympics, and for recruiting new businesses to come to town, is a wide-ranging transit system.

 

Last I read, G-Rod was willing to sign for big transit money if the state legislature was willing to allow both a Chicago casinos plan, and also enact a bunch of G-Rods tax "loophole" closures (some of which, as have been discussed, are key to keeping businesses in Chicago). The state legislature doesn't want to rely on casino gambling for revenue, nor do they want to send businesses packing.

 

Thing is, we've all been spoiled. For a couple decades, Illinois government ran better than most because of compromise. The almost-always Democratic Congress, under Madigan, tended to work very well with governors, even when they were Republican, which they often were (Thompson, Edgar). Now, there is a Democrat governor in office, but he doesn't know his ass from a rathole, so we get gridlock to an extreme. Most of the blame belongs with G-Rod, who is even less of a negotiator and uniter than Bush is. But the state Congress deserves some too, for not at least proposing to allow SOME change to the tax loopholes.

 

There are also 2 larger issue at play here, which are shadows of what is happening on the national stage. One is the transit infrastructure issue - the nation is facing the fact that it will take large amounts of cash to maintain a huge, aging system of roads and rails. Two, the power of the executive versus the legislative. G-Rod wants to make the Governor's job all-powerful, much like Bush is trying to do with the Presidency. At the national level, Congress from both parties has allowed that to happen by laying down and being cowards. In Illinois, although its painful right now, maybe Madigan has it right - he has refused to be bullied. He has held onto power that was really equal to the Governor for some time now, and doesn't want to see that dwindle. It may be selfishly motivated, but I think its not a bad battle to fight, in the long run.

 

Meantime, I hope this can get worked out quick, because the city of Chicago is taking some serious lumps right now (transit, the missing boxers, marathon mess, etc.).

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I do think there's a failure in the process when a deal can't be worked out to fix a non-negotiable issue like massive public transit in the third biggest city in America. That being said though, CTA is to blame just as much as the state or the city. Even their new guy, who they try to paint as a perfect manager who inherited a problem, has made some BS mistakes.

 

Why couldn't the CTA forecast this gigantic budget problem? It's not like they were 5 or 10 million off. Yet they decide to roll out an entire new transit line? Why now? We've lived without it for how long? I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine that branch of the L is actually making money - not enough people use it. And really I don't think cuts are all that bad. I primarily ride the train, so I can't speak to the bus service, but there's no reason to run trains every 7 min in the middle of the day. Send one every 15 (except for rush hour)and cut half the costs.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I do think there's a failure in the process when a deal can't be worked out to fix a non-negotiable issue like massive public transit in the third biggest city in America. That being said though, CTA is to blame just as much as the state or the city. Even their new guy, who they try to paint as a perfect manager who inherited a problem, has made some BS mistakes.

 

Why couldn't the CTA forecast this gigantic budget problem? It's not like they were 5 or 10 million off. Yet they decide to roll out an entire new transit line? Why now? We've lived without it for how long? I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine that branch of the L is actually making money - not enough people use it. And really I don't think cuts are all that bad. I primarily ride the train, so I can't speak to the bus service, but there's no reason to run trains every 7 min in the middle of the day. Send one every 15 (except for rush hour)and cut half the costs.

To clarify a few points...

 

The "new" pink line was just a different coupling of existing stops and lines - it usse already-existing routes in a new way. Overhead was miniscule.

 

The CTA did predict this problem, and they have been yelling about it for a few years.

 

The cuts are really bad for some people. There are entire bus lines being removed by CTA and Pace in the plan, dozens of them, and not everyone works M-F 9-5.

 

By the way, I agree the CTA deserves some of the blame, no question. But those two things above, I don't think I put on their shoulders. And I think, similar to the situation with the county and city asking for tons of money, an option that should be explored along with taxes and other revenues, is increased fares and costs to the users. I'd rather see them run different routes at their true costs based on ridership, and see what happens, then just being lazy and cutting them. If people are willing to pay the extra dollar here and there to ride, then everyone wins - the riders get to keep their transit, and the agency doesn't have to underwrite them as heavily.

 

[BigSqwert]

Is the CTA the only train system in the country that uses a flat rate for riders? I find it rather silly that I would pay the exact amount for a ride on the train from Skokie to 95th as I would from Western to Damen. It should be 20 or 25 cents per train stop.

Edited October 29, 2007 by BigSqwert

[Jenksismyhero]

I think the pink was a combination of part of the blue and part of the green, but they are now using the north-south tracks right by the united center, tracks that haven't been used in a while. So there's the added upkeep of that new X miles of track plus the additional costs in running the routes. In the grand scheme of things the loss (if there is one) on that section of the track surely didn't put them in the situation they are in now. One thing that could be effecting their bottom line is the two major overhauls of the brown and red lines and their stations - whether that was necessary (for safety) or whether it was a beautification project is up for debate.

 

But yeah, I agree. I'm a chicago resident but I don't think joe blow down in southern illinois should be paying for a system that I use daily and they may use once in their lives, if that. I think we need to set up a zone map so that riders in the far away stations pay more. That wont solve the problem, but it'll help stop the bleeding.

[BigSqwert]

I think the pink was a combination of part of the blue and part of the green, but they are now using the north-south tracks right by the united center, tracks that haven't been used in a while. So there's the added upkeep of that new X miles of track plus the additional costs in running the routes. In the grand scheme of things the loss (if there is one) on that section of the track surely didn't put them in the situation they are in now. One thing that could be effecting their bottom line is the two major overhauls of the brown and red lines and their stations - whether that was necessary (for safety) or whether it was a beautification project is up for debate.

 

But yeah, I agree. I'm a chicago resident but I don't think joe blow down in southern illinois should be paying for a system that I use daily and they may use once in their lives, if that. I think we need to set up a zone map so that riders in the far away stations pay more. That wont solve the problem, but it'll help stop the bleeding.

Great minds think alike.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think the pink was a combination of part of the blue and part of the green, but they are now using the north-south tracks right by the united center, tracks that haven't been used in a while. So there's the added upkeep of that new X miles of track plus the additional costs in running the routes. In the grand scheme of things the loss (if there is one) on that section of the track surely didn't put them in the situation they are in now. One thing that could be effecting their bottom line is the two major overhauls of the brown and red lines and their stations - whether that was necessary (for safety) or whether it was a beautification project is up for debate.

 

But yeah, I agree. I'm a chicago resident but I don't think joe blow down in southern illinois should be paying for a system that I use daily and they may use once in their lives, if that. I think we need to set up a zone map so that riders in the far away stations pay more. That wont solve the problem, but it'll help stop the bleeding.

I think a zoned fare system is a great idea. I also think that the CTA should look reducing train frequency during off hours, as opposed to just removing it. Add in making that zoned fare structure higher in overall fares, an small increase in gasoline tax, and mandated cuts in the cost of MANAGEMENT, and I think you can get a significant chunk of the way there.

 

Also, something to consider... I cannot find the article now, but the CTA was actually getting less government money per passenger than most transit systems in the country. So while I am sure their management is less than efficient, I don't think that's as big a problem as others indicate. I think the decaying infrastructure should be the biggest cost concern at this point.

 

[mr_genius]

Is the CTA the only train system in the country that uses a flat rate for riders? I find it rather silly that I would pay the exact amount for a ride on the train from Skokie to 95th as I would from Western to Damen. It should be 20 or 25 cents per train stop.

 

I think the main argument against that is the fact that many of the poor people who would be most affected by the increase live further from downtown. Just a guess though.

[Rex Kickass]

I think a zoned fare system is a great idea. I also think that the CTA should look reducing train frequency during off hours, as opposed to just removing it. Add in making that zoned fare structure higher in overall fares, an small increase in gasoline tax, and mandated cuts in the cost of MANAGEMENT, and I think you can get a significant chunk of the way there.

 

Also, something to consider... I cannot find the article now, but the CTA was actually getting less government money per passenger than most transit systems in the country. So while I am sure their management is less than efficient, I don't think that's as big a problem as others indicate. I think the decaying infrastructure should be the biggest cost concern at this point.

 

It's my understanding that the 24 hour lines are only running two trains an hour overnight. I can't imagine that you'd be saving that much by cutting a total of three or four train runs a night.

 

There is a big problem with funding for the CTA. When the RTA was formed in 1982, it poured money into the then basically insolvent Metra system at the expense of the CTA. Unfortunately, as Metra's fortunes improved and its need for excess funding evaporated, the funding schedule was not changed and CTA has been shorted for capital improvement consistently over the last 25 years.

 

Now Metra is talking shortage and eliminating Sunday ridership in a year or so affecting 50,000 people a week. The truth is that Illinois needs to offer better funding for the entire RTA, and Lake County ought to contribute in and of itself. I think the best thing to do is merge Metra and CTA.

[BigSqwert]

I think the main argument against that is the fact that many of the poor people who would be most affected by the increase live further from downtown. Just a guess though.

How do poor people cope in other cities that have zoned rates?