Israeli exhibit has visitors walking on Arabic flags!

[EvilMonkey]

No, wait, other way around. Visitor to the International Koran Exposition walk on Israeli (and US) flags while viewing an exhibit praising Palestinian suicide bombers. Just imagine if the headline above was true.

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070915/ids_pho...r2864042806.jpg

 

[NorthSideSox72]

No, wait, other way around. Visitor to the International Koran Exposition walk on Israeli (and US) flags while viewing an exhibit praising Palestinian suicide bombers. Just imagine if the headline above was true.

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070915/ids_pho...r2864042806.jpg

What the heck is an Arabic flag?

 

And who cares what a bunch of morons in Iran are doing to insult their government's enemies? How is it any different than the insults that are flung the other direction?

 

I'll take your bait. I'd imagine that if the headline was the other way around, I'd have the exact same reaction - what a bunch of losers.

 

[LowerCaseRepublican]

What the heck is an Arabic flag?

 

And who cares what a bunch of morons in Iran are doing to insult their government's enemies? How is it any different than the insults that are flung the other direction?

 

I'll take your bait. I'd imagine that if the headline was the other way around, I'd have the exact same reaction - what a bunch of losers.

 

And now, for the sole purpose of threadjacking, let's discuss the historical merits of this:

 

[EvilMonkey]

I was thinking more globally. You know, offend one Muslim, offend all muslims. Riots, protests, bounties on heads, that sort of thing.

[NorthSideSox72]

I was thinking more globally. You know, offend one Muslim, offend all muslims. Riots, protests, bounties on heads, that sort of thing.

I don't think that happens any more in the muslim community than it does in, say, the jewish community. Just my perception.

 

[EvilMonkey]

I don't think that happens any more in the muslim community than it does in, say, the jewish community. Just my perception.

so, you think that the number of beheadings and riots due to perceived insults is about even between arabs and israeli's?

[NorthSideSox72]

so, you think that the number of beheadings and riots due to perceived insults is about even between arabs and israeli's?

beheadings? When did I say anything about beheadings? Riots, protests, and the percentage of people who equate the act with their entire religion.

 

You can keep this up, but you won't change anyone's mind. You seem to believe that Islam is one big religion of extremists who are all looking for someone to behead as soon as anyone says anything that runs counter to their beliefs. In my view, that is utter nonsense. There are a billion Muslims in this world, only about 20% of which are even Arab of any type, and only a small percentage of them fit the extremist mold that you are applying to the whole religion. In other words, just like Christianity and Judaism and other religions, a small faction has hijacked it for their own ends, and is not indicative of the whole. That faction is unfortunately on the rise, thanks in some part to the behavior of the west towards the middle east over the years. But its still a minority. And that minority is who you would see on TV calling for people's heads if this situation were reversed.

 

[kapkomet]

Like it or not, the Muslim population has been hijacked by these extremeists. It's very unfortunate.

[NorthSideSox72]

Like it or not, the Muslim population has been hijacked by these extremeists. It's very unfortunate.

Yes it has. And the bad news is, they are much stronger and larger than say, something like the FLDS or some other extremist sect of Christianity or Judaism. But the good news is, they are still the small minority, and that means that if we can get a new, sane policy towards the Middle East in 2008 (one not bent on illegal and poorly planed colonialism), then we may still be able to avert a lot of future violence.

 

[southsider2k5]

Yes it has. And the bad news is, they are much stronger and larger than say, something like the FLDS or some other extremist sect of Christianity or Judaism. But the good news is, they are still the small minority, and that means that if we can get a new, sane policy towards the Middle East in 2008 (one not bent on illegal and poorly planed colonialism), then we may still be able to avert a lot of future violence.

 

Our policy is not the problem, when it comes to extremism. Even under Democratic Presidents we have been under attack by extremists. Heck under the biggest pacifist President we probably ever had, Iran invaded our embassy and took our citizens hostage. Under Clinton we had the first WTC attack, the USS Cole attack, the embassy bombings etc. It might change things with lots of Muslims around the world, but the extremists will always be (for lack of a better discription) extreme. There is no way of changing the minds of people whose sole purpose in life is our destruction.

[NorthSideSox72]

Our policy is not the problem, when it comes to extremism. Even under Democratic Presidents we have been under attack by extremists. Heck under the biggest pacifist President we probably ever had, Iran invaded our embassy and took our citizens hostage. Under Clinton we had the first WTC attack, the USS Cole attack, the embassy bombings etc. It might change things with lots of Muslims around the world, but the extremists will always be (for lack of a better discription) extreme. There is no way of changing the minds of people whose sole purpose in life is our destruction.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. First, I am not at all saying we should be pacifists. I am not saying the Dems are any better than the GOP. Frankly, I think they both have it wrong, right now. And the policy that has done the damage isn't just BushCo (although they kicked it into high gear), its things that Europe and the U.S. have been doing for decades or even centuries. And to get past that will take a very active role by the U.S. - just not active meaning invasions and illegal occupations, that only make things worse.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

And the policy that has done the damage isn't just BushCo (although they kicked it into high gear), its things that Europe and the U.S. have been doing for decades or even centuries.

 

 

Yeah, cuz Bush really pissed off those extremists so much that only NOW are the plotting attacks on us. Oh wait, they've been attacking us for the last thirty years. Try to see through your Bush hatred just a tad. I would agree he's probably worsened the perception of the US in the world, but to say he's worsened the hatred of exteremists is just plain silly. They've reached the boiling point already - they've come to the conclusion that they're lives should be devoted to taking us down. How can anyone make that worse? There is no worse - they're already there.

 

And really it sounds like you're almost justifying their hatred. No doubt the US and European allies have really messed that region up over the last 50 years, but that doesn't warrant murder and the destruction of the country.

[Texsox]

Like it or not, the Muslim population has been hijacked by these extremeists. It's very unfortunate.

 

World wide attention has been hijacked by the extremists. There is a difference.

[kapkomet]

World wide attention has been hijacked by the extremists. There is a difference.

Yea, killing 3,000 + people on American soil will kind of draw attention.

[NorthSideSox72]

Yeah, cuz Bush really pissed off those extremists so much that only NOW are the plotting attacks on us. Oh wait, they've been attacking us for the last thirty years. Try to see through your Bush hatred just a tad. I would agree he's probably worsened the perception of the US in the world, but to say he's worsened the hatred of exteremists is just plain silly. They've reached the boiling point already - they've come to the conclusion that they're lives should be devoted to taking us down. How can anyone make that worse? There is no worse - they're already there.

 

And really it sounds like you're almost justifying their hatred. No doubt the US and European allies have really messed that region up over the last 50 years, but that doesn't warrant murder and the destruction of the country.

Take it down a notch. That quote from me is specifically saying that things were already screwed up well before Bush took office. I just said that Bush has made it worse.

 

But again we see that some people see only one type of person in the Middle East - terrorists. That is what your post assumes. Of course the people bent on destruction of the west aren't worse - that's not what I said. I said our relations with the Middle East as a whole are worse, and they clearly are. There are now far more extremists, due in part to the foreign policy tack the U.S. has taken. I can't see how that can be denied. And, the people who are moderates or who might be moderates are taking less and less of a positive stance towards us (see: Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, etc.). Basically, our current way of dealing with the Middle East is shooting us in the foot.

 

One more thing. I have never, and would never, justify violence for any purpose other than self-defense. And I certainly am not justifying what terrorist have done and are doing. There is no justification for that.

 

What I'd urge you to do is study the history of that region a bit. See what has happened over the years. I think you will find that we have made some of the same mistakes that have already been made repeatedly. To think that doesn't have an angering effect in that region is pretty ridiculous - we'd be angry too. But, despite what our wonderful politicians seem to tell us, there are ways of going about this that are not one of the two current models being suggested (one being invasion/colonialism, the other being surrender and leave the scene). If you take history to heart, you will find that the Middle East has repeatedly been willing to work with the west, if the west is actually willing to open up a real dialogue. In other words, its possible to establish a positive working relationship with most countries in that region and root out extremism and violence, without going over there and killing a few hundred thousand of them.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Yea, killing 3,000 + people on American soil will kind of draw attention.

Exactly.

 

That is yet another example of how U.S. policy has all but handed those terrorists a victory - it now appears to many in that region that U.S. policy is simply a hatred of all Muslims, instead of targetting those who actually caused 9/11.

 

[kapkomet]

Exactly.

 

That is yet another example of how U.S. policy has all but handed those terrorists a victory - it now appears to many in that region that U.S. policy is simply a hatred of all Muslims, instead of targetting those who actually caused 9/11.

They thought that before, during and after 9/11, so it's really not any different then it ever has been.

[NorthSideSox72]

They thought that before, during and after 9/11, so it's really not any different then it ever has been.

Similar, though worsened. That is what I have been saying.

 

[mr_genius]

Similar, though worsened. That is what I have been saying.

 

I think it might be slightly worse, but just about the same. They already hated the Jew loving Great Satan (united states) before.

 

Who really cares if the guy suicide bombing you super duper hates you or just simply hates you. You're dead either way

Edited September 18, 2007 by mr_genius

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Our policy is not the problem, when it comes to extremism. Even under Democratic Presidents we have been under attack by extremists. Heck under the biggest pacifist President we probably ever had, Iran invaded our embassy and took our citizens hostage. Under Clinton we had the first WTC attack, the USS Cole attack, the embassy bombings etc. It might change things with lots of Muslims around the world, but the extremists will always be (for lack of a better discription) extreme. There is no way of changing the minds of people whose sole purpose in life is our destruction.

Um the Embassy takeover was some pissed Iranians who were upset at our support of the Shah and his secret police. So that was a little of 'reap what you sow'. And the rest of this isn't directed towards you SS, I just didn't want to double post in the thread back to back.

 

And we haven't been just under attack by Muslim extremists in the US and the world. Perhaps Eric Rudolph is worth remembering as well, the Army of God, the ultra-rightist Christians who bomb and shoot doctors/medical clinics, the KKK (a Christian extremist organization), the Christian Identity movement...and a little from Wiki:

 

Clayton Waagner claimed to be on a "mission from God" when he set out with his family on a trip across the United States, intent on killing multiple abortion providers. Ultimately he mailed envelopes, falsely claiming they contained anthrax, to more than 500 abortion facilities, as part of the larger, and unconnected, anthrax attacks of 2001.

 

On 11 September 2006 David McMenemy, who has pleaded guilty to second degree arson allegedly attempted a suicide bombing, deliberately crashing his car into the Edgerton Women’s Health Center in Davenport, Iowa. According to a court affidavit, McMenemy swore under oath that he mistakenly thought the clinic performed abortions.

 

The National Liberation Front of Tripura is a Fundamentalist Christian militant group in India, demanding a separate Christian state. Allegedly funded by the Baptist Church of Tripura, it is accused of ethnic cleansing and bombings that have killed hundreds, as well as forcing gunpoint conversions. They were declared a terrorist organization under the Prevention of Terrorism Act in 2002.

 

Poso, Jakarta (2000)

On July 26, 2007, 17 Christians were convicted of religion-inspired terrorism under Indonesian law. A Christian mob attacked, murdered, and beheaded two Muslim fishermen in September 2006, reportedly as retaliation for a previous court ordered and legally sanctioned execution in 2006 of three Christians convicted of leading a militant group which killed hundreds of Muslims in Poso in 2000. In addition to the seventeen Christian defendants found guilty of "acts of terrorism by the use of violence", two defendants received fourteen year sentences for their main roles in the killings, while ten were sentenced to twelve year terms. Five other defendants in separate hearings received eight year sentences for their part in the disposal of the bodies.

 

So, perhaps it isn't just Muslims that are rioting and beheading in parts of the world over perceived injustices. Fundamentalists of all stripes are f***ing nutty and it helps to not make exemptions for fundies of a certain religion.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think it might be slightly worse, but just about the same. They already hated the Jew loving Great Satan (united states) before.

 

Who really cares if the guy suicide bombing you super duper hates you or just simply hates you. You're dead either way

Boy, you and Jenks still keep seeing only one kind of person over there, don't you? Of course a suicide bomber type can't hate you any more. The idea is there are now more of those types of people. And there are more types who were moderates but are now more against U.S. involvement, and on down the line.

 

[kapkomet]

There are extremeists in every "religion"... and they are all screwtards. It's about as simple as that.

 

But, it amazes me people who want to jump all over BushCo as making things "worse". I'm sorry... 3000 + people, in basically a blatent act of war, is pretty much as bad as it gets. And that was not BushCo's fault, as much as some of you out there want it to be.

 

Now, by going after them in several different ways, it's "worse"? I'm not buying that kool-aid. Obviously, though, it's not going to change anyone's mind.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

There are extremeists in every "religion"... and they are all screwtards. It's about as simple as that.

 

But, it amazes me people who want to jump all over BushCo as making things "worse". I'm sorry... 3000 + people, in basically a blatent act of war, is pretty much as bad as it gets. And that was not BushCo's fault, as much as some of you out there want it to be.

 

Now, by going after them in several different ways, it's "worse"? I'm not buying that kool-aid. Obviously, though, it's not going to change anyone's mind.

Who here has blamed BushCo for 9/11? I certainly haven't. I don't think anyone else has. Perhaps the straw man in the corner?

 

And honestly, the only people out there I see saying its not worse are Bush and his close allies. And given their history of laughably rosy descriptions of the war that is obviously going poorly, I tend to think its them selling kool aid.

 

And, again... IRAQ HAD ZERO TO DO WITH 9/11. I was fine with Afghanistan, as was almost everyone else in the world. If we had done that job right, and stuck to it, we might be a lot better off right now in many, many ways.

 

[kapkomet]

I've said this before, but it's very short sited to look at Iraq as a very short term thing, which most people are.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I've said this before, but it's very short sited to look at Iraq as a very short term thing, which most people are.

Again with the assumption. I've said before in here, I've said it to you... I am very well aware of the real reasons for attacking Iraq. It was never about WMD, or how Saddam was a bad man (those were way, way down the list, if they were factors at all). It was about:

 

1. Creating an anchorhead for democracy and capitalism in the Middle East, hoping it would spread in the region.

2. Have more control and influence over the flow of oil from the Gulf

3. Creating a military depot in the region allied with the U.S.

4. Centralize the greater military and politcal conflicts in a country of our choosing, where we could battle extremism head-on

 

Those were the main drivers. They are plenty long-sighted - just not very intelligent. You cannot create democracy at he barrell of a gun. It would have been much, much cheaper to invest in getting off oil entirely, then to invade and own Iraq. Now I have been wrong on a lot of things, but I'll tell you, these facts all seemed pretty damn obvious to me from the get-go. I just don't understand why this administration couldn't see it too.