BearSox Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Javy Vazquez is sick, and with that preformance yesterday, he raised his strikeout total to over 200. Current stats to date: 31/31 G/GS |14-8 | 3.79 ERA | 209 IP | 204 K | 49 BB | 2 CG | 1.14 WHIP This has been Javy's best season since his final year as an Expo. Hopefully now he is fully settled in, and is ready to pitch great for the White Sox for hopefully at least a couple more seasons. Oh yeah... Chris who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 BearSox said: This has been Javy's best season since his final year as an Expo. Gee, I wonder why. No pressure = no problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted September 23, 2007 Author Share Posted September 23, 2007 or... finally settled in on one team. There is no question Javy is a head case, and perhaps finally being on one team for 2 years now has given him some sort of confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitlesswonder Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 09:15 AM) Gee, I wonder why. No pressure = no problems Seriously. Let me know when Javier Vazquez pitches well in a game that matters. Sure, you could point out his 3.86 ERA in his last 12 games of 2006 when the Sox were fighting for a playoff berth. But I prefer to ignore that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 03:02 PM) Seriously. Let me know when Javier Vazquez pitches well in a game that matters. Sure, you could point out his 3.86 ERA in his last 12 games of 2006 when the Sox were fighting for a playoff berth. But I prefer to ignore that. Of course, why count the times he's done well when there is negative times we can focus on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 SEALgep said: Of course, why count the times he's done well when there is negative times we can focus on. because a snarly comment towards Chris Young, who hit yet another leadoff home run last night, was made in the original post. I think Vazquez can be a good pitcher but I don't think it's a coincidence that he's pitching like he was on the Expos while the Sox are playing like the Expos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 11:21 AM) because a snarly comment towards Chris Young, who hit yet another leadoff home run last night, was made in the original post. I think Vazquez can be a good pitcher but I don't think it's a coincidence that he's pitching like he was on the Expos while the Sox are playing like the Expos. Chris Young's homer rate is almost as good as Josh Fields'. Throw in he's a gold glove calibur defender and most likely will be a 30+ steals guy, plus the money differential, Vazquez is going to have to show he can pitch like he has this year when the team is in contention. Vizcaino, and El Duque were both part of that deal as well. Vizcaino was pretty valuable. El Duque being around may have helped Contreras, we don't know. Contreras was pretty good without him to begin the season last year, but maybe El Duque would have helped when the struggles began. Whatever, they can't rescind the deal. I just have a hard time with people puffing their chests out talking about how everyone against that trade was wrong after Vazquez has a good year on a team that may finish in last place. A guy like Paul Byrd was available that offseason. I don't see how anyone can say that trade has worked out well since the Sox finished 3rd last year and either 4th or 5th this year. Edited September 23, 2007 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitewashed in '05 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I gotta give the guy his props. He has done good this season and I didn't think he'd ever be under the 4's in ERA. ...That's it. We'll see how he fares next season after we're our supposed big offseason to make us contenders again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Remind me, is it Young's .239 average or .297 on base that we're missing more coming out of that leadoff spot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 04:42 PM) Chris Young's homer rate is almost as good as Josh Fields'. Throw in he's a gold glove calibur defender and most likely will be a 30+ steals guy, plus the money differential, Vazquez is going to have to show he can pitch like he has this year when the team is in contention. Vizcaino, and El Duque were both part of that deal as well. Vizcaino was pretty valuable. El Duque being around may have helped Contreras, we don't know. Contreras was pretty good without him to begin the season last year, but maybe El Duque would have helped when the struggles began. Whatever, they can't rescind the deal. I just have a hard time with people puffing their chests out talking about how everyone against that trade was wrong after Vazquez has a good year on a team that may finish in last place. A guy like Paul Byrd was available that offseason. I don't see how anyone can say that trade has worked out well since the Sox finished 3rd last year and either 4th or 5th this year. Despite the losing this team has done, it can hardly be put on the shoulders of Vazquez. As someone pointed out below, Young has great potential, but a low average and OBP. He will certainly get better I'd say, but the plan was to win now. Besides, Pods had come off a good year, we had Anderson ready to take CF, and with that being the plan, it was worth turning a valued prospect into a quality pitcher who could eat innings. Especially considering the amount of innings our starters had thrown. It's easy to forget, but the situation called for us to make a move like this. Looking at today, the deal still looks good to me. With the FA pitching market being what it is set up to be this offseason, it allows the team to move a starting pitcher and get a lot of value in return, which the team is able to do because of having Vazquez in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(Heads22 @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 05:12 PM) Remind me, is it Young's .239 average or .297 on base that we're missing more coming out of that leadoff spot? but, but, but he's hit 30 HR!!!! he's like Juan Uribe. Above average power, above average defense, but can't hit a lick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitlesswonder Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 11:21 AM) because a snarly comment towards Chris Young, who hit yet another leadoff home run last night, was made in the original post. I think Vazquez can be a good pitcher but I don't think it's a coincidence that he's pitching like he was on the Expos while the Sox are playing like the Expos. Vazquez pitched well down the stretch last season when the Sox were still in contention. He pitched well early this season before the Sox fell out of contention. He's been one of the 20 best starters in the AL for over a year. I don't think he pitches well only when there's no pressure, but that's just me. Do I wish the Sox could rescind the Young trade? Yes, without a doubt. Young is more valuable. It was a bad trade. But the Sox didn't get totally ripped off. It wasn't an epically bad trade -- they did get value in return. Just not equal value. Edited September 23, 2007 by hitlesswonder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 06:42 PM) Vazquez pitched well down the stretch last season when the Sox were still in contention. He pitched well early this season before the Sox fell out of contention. He's been one of the 20 best starters in the AL for over a year. I don't think he pitches well only when there's no pressure, but that's just me. Do I wish the Sox could rescind the Young trade? Yes, without a doubt. Young is more valuable. It was a bad trade. But the Sox didn't get totally ripped off. It wasn't an epically bad trade -- they did get value in return. Just not equal value. I disagree, I think at this moment in time, factoring both players on the market, Vazquez would bring in considerably more than Young. In fact, I think Vazquez under contract could net a talent like Young and potentially more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(jasonxctf @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 01:31 PM) he's like Juan Uribe Sure... if Uribe ever hit 30 (career high is 23), or posted a .360 OBP in the minors, or showed improvement at every level of the minors, or ranked as one of the top 10 prospects in all of baseball, or ever walked at an above average clip. I could go on... It takes an amazing lack of foresight to be such a fan of Jerry Owens while continuing to crap of Chris Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I do like Vazquez. I like to watch the guy pitch abd I think the issue of not being able to handle pressure-although a problem once-is not there anymore. We had a rookie player in Young that has developed for the D-Backs and 30 homers by a rookie is nothing to sneeze at. Put him and Fields in the same line up and we have some runs being knocked in. But, you have to give up something to get something and It looks like both clubs won. I kind of wish at times we had tried harder to give someone elese up for Javy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(SEALgep @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 01:54 PM) I disagree, I think at this moment in time, factoring both players on the market, Vazquez would bring in considerably more than Young. In fact, I think Vazquez under contract could net a talent like Young and potentially more. You're wrong. 5 more years of improvement under a suppressed salary makes Young a far more valuable commodity on the trade market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjm676 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 People on here are funny. Always trying to bring out the negatives in the players, instead of appreciating the positives. Javy has been one of the few bright spots of the season. I'm glad we have him for a few more seasons, bookended (is that a word? ) with Buehrle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 06:59 PM) You're wrong. 5 more years of improvement under a suppressed salary makes Young a far more valuable commodity on the trade market. The lack of actual knowledge about the current baseball industry is shocking sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 06:59 PM) You're wrong. 5 more years of improvement under a suppressed salary makes Young a far more valuable commodity on the trade market. Not with this FA pitching market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 A better offensive comp for Young is Fields. The lines they're putting up are freakishly identical (.239/.298/.477 vs .245/.301/.484). Of course, that doesn't take into account the massive difference in baserunning and defense, but it sure would've been nice to be able to pencil Young, Fields and Richar in for the next five years. And yes, the reason Vazquez pitched well this year is because the Sox sucked so he decided to turn it on. I'm glad we have so many Psych. majors on the board -- it's nice to know that if I'm ever having some issues upstairs, there will be plenty of people I can talk to here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(SEALgep @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 02:10 PM) Not with this FA pitching market. Let's compare.... How many above average pitchers are available at a salary of $11M/yr? Probably none, but you can get close. Or at least catch lightning in a bottle. How many projectable CFers are available at a salary of $500K? None. And Young's salary over the next 5 seasons will be less than what it takes to sign Hunter or Jones for 1 season. That's value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Javy has been our most consistant starter this year. It has been nice to see him live up to the salary he is getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 07:14 PM) Let's compare.... How many above average pitchers are available at a salary of $11M/yr? Probably none, but you can get close. Or at least catch lightning in a bottle. How many projectable CFers are available at a salary of $500K? None. And Young's salary over the next 5 seasons will be less than what it takes to sign Hunter or Jones for 1 season. That's value. Value is subjective, and again with the FA pitching market and abundance of CF's available, I'd have to say Vazquez still has more value. Teams don't want to catch lightning in a bottle with pitching when they have a guy at the same price virtually a lock for 200 innings and the same for K's. In fact, they probably still would need to for the spots further down in the rotation besides the addition of Vazquez. So many teams have question marks after the third spot and in some cases the second spot. If I'm a GM with a suspect rotation, I'm probably trying to catch my lightning in a bottle with the CF spot. Besides, let's not pencil Young as an All Star just yet. The average and OBP need major improving before that title is earned. Will he develop that part of his game, I'm sure, but Vazquez is getting it done now, and not many teams would pass on the opportunity to acquire him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(SEALgep @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 02:44 PM) Value is subjective, and again with the FA pitching market and abundance of CF's available, I'd have to say Vazquez still has more value. Teams don't want to catch lightning in a bottle with pitching when they have a guy at the same price virtually a lock for 200 innings and the same for K's. In fact, they probably still would need to for the spots further down in the rotation besides the addition of Vazquez. So many teams have question marks after the third spot and in some cases the second spot. If I'm a GM with a suspect rotation, I'm probably trying to catch my lightning in a bottle with the CF spot. Besides, let's not pencil Young as an All Star just yet. The average and OBP need major improving before that title is earned. Will he develop that part of his game, I'm sure, but Vazquez is getting it done now, and not many teams would pass on the opportunity to acquire him. Teams that buy on what a player is doing "right now" and fail to see the projectability of young players with track records of improvement are destined to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Sep 23, 2007 -> 07:46 PM) Teams that buy on what a player is doing "right now" and fail to see the projectability of young players with track records of improvement are destined to fail. What are you talking about, Vazquez is not old, he's 31. In this case the Sox were able to get someone that could help them now and later, versus just later. Pitching is the more important piece for a team that is trying to win now and in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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