Javy Vazquez...

[greg775]

I give him credit for a nice season.

The way I see it is if several other players had performed to their capabilities

as well as Javy has, we'd be in the playoffs.

Good job Javy

[fathom]

I give him credit for a nice season.

The way I see it is if several other players had performed to their capabilities

as well as Javy has, we'd be in the playoffs.

Good job Javy

 

We were more than just several players performing better away from making the postseason. This team just didn't have the talent to be a playoff contender, and it started with the idiotic decisions regarding our LF/CF spot this season.

[max power]

Why can't I quote you dick? So do you agree with those people that fields and richar are great or do you just justify being wrong in your assessment of young because they are wrong as well?

[max power]

Wtf? Did he delete his post or something?

[jasonxctf]

Sure... if Uribe ever hit 30 (career high is 23), or posted a .360 OBP in the minors, or showed improvement at every level of the minors, or ranked as one of the top 10 prospects in all of baseball, or ever walked at an above average clip. I could go on...

 

It takes an amazing lack of foresight to be such a fan of Jerry Owens while continuing to crap of Chris Young.

 

 

or vice versa.

[jasonxctf]

also, juan uribe did have a .367OBP in 2003 and a .333OBP in 2001 and a .331 in 1998.

[Gene Honda Civic]

also, juan uribe did have a .367OBP in 2003 and a .333OBP in 2001 and a .331 in 1998.

.367OBP? surely you jest. Perhaps you should look that up again.

 

.333 in '01? OK, but that's in Colorado Springs and Denver -- Colorado springs average OBP was .341 and the League average was .333...

 

1998? The Arizona League.... C'mon it's rookie ball. Those stats are about as translatable as Church softball leagues.

[greg775]

  Quote

We were more than just several players performing better away from making the postseason. This team just didn't have the talent to be a playoff contender, and it started with the idiotic decisions regarding our LF/CF spot this season.

 

I agree to a certain extent.

If you remember, early on we were getting great starting pitching for a good chunk of the season.

Even with the bad offense, if we had a "good" bullpen we probably still could have hovered

around .500 for a while.

Then if the bullpen was "good" and several players (AJP, Paulie, Thome, Dye) actually hit,

I think we could have contended.

We had a playoff caliber starting rotation for a while. It was the bullpen that stunk.

[fathom]

I agree to a certain extent.

If you remember, early on we were getting great starting pitching for a good chunk of the season.

Even with the bad offense, if we had a "good" bullpen we probably still could have hovered

around .500 for a while.

Then if the bullpen was "good" and several players (AJP, Paulie, Thome, Dye) actually hit,

I think we could have contended.

We had a playoff caliber starting rotation for a while. It was the bullpen that stunk.

 

There's 4 stellar teams in the AL that easily won over 90 games. Hovering around .500 is a far way from being at the level needed in the loaded league.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

The trade will seem much better if Chris Young hits a couple of walkoff homers against the Cubs in the playoffs.

 

Edit-Not much better, but it would help ease the pain.

Edited September 24, 2007 by WhiteSoxfan1986

[iamshack]

Honestly, why does everyone have such a problem with this guy? He can't win no matter what he does...if he pitches like crap, he's a bum, when he pitches outstanding, it's because the rest of the team sucks. What a bunch of bologna. The guy's been pitching this way for more than a year now and it has absolutely nothing to do with the team being terrible this season. You don't pitch at this level for that long without having some sort of idea what you're doing.

 

And the fact that the guy always has to be linked to Babe Ruth, umm, I mean Chris Young, is ridiculous. He didn't make the trade. He didn't negotiate with Kenny and demand Chris Young for Arizona. Stop judging him based on Young's 30 homers and give the guy the credit he deserves for reaching his potential again. Winning 14 games on this team is an absolute miracle. He's averaging about a k per inning with a k/walk ratio of 4/1.

 

Chris Young is gone. GET OVER IT. And Give Javy the credit he deserves for earning his paycheck, unlike the vast majority of players on this team this year.

Edited September 24, 2007 by iamshack

[WCSox]

Honestly, why does everyone have such a problem with this guy? He can't win no matter what he does...if he pitches like crap, he's a bum, when he pitches outstanding, it's because the rest of the team sucks. What a bunch of bologna. The guy's been pitching this way for more than a year now and it has absolutely nothing to do with the team being terrible this season. You don't pitch at this level for that long having some sort of idea what you're doing.

 

And the fact that the guy always has to be linked to Babe Ruth, umm, I mean Chris Young, is ridiculous. He didn't make the trade. He didn't negotiate with Kenny and demand Chris Young for Arizona. Stop judging him based on Young's 30 homers and give the guy the credit he deserves for reaching his potential again. Winning 14 games on this team is an absolute miracle. He's averaging about a k per inning with a k/walk ratio of 4/1.

 

Chris Young is gone. GET OVER IT. And Give Javy the credit he deserves for earning his paycheck, unlike the vast majority of players on this team this year.

 

If the Sox sucked this year with Young in CF and Floyd in Javy's spot, we'd constantly hear the "Kenny was stupid for not trading for Vazquez! How could he not make starting pitching a priority?!" crap here.

 

[jasonxctf]

.367OBP? surely you jest. Perhaps you should look that up again.

 

.333 in '01? OK, but that's in Colorado Springs and Denver -- Colorado springs average OBP was .341 and the League average was .333...

 

1998? The Arizona League.... C'mon it's rookie ball. Those stats are about as translatable as Church softball leagues.

 

 

look it up yourself. http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=14859

[NorthSideSox72]

look it up yourself. http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=14859

in 29 at-bats?

 

[CWSGuy406]

in 29 at-bats?

 

Gotta love that this guy is trying to compare Juan Uribe (minor league OBP of .315 -- !!!! -- despite playing in all hitting environments every step of the way) to Chris Young (minor league OBP of .353. Some people make me laugh.

[jasonxctf]

im sorry you feel that way.

 

do me a huge favor, in your on-line calendar, make a note to circle back with me either

 

(a) when Chris Young has a batting average over .270 (even at 29 games)

 

or

 

(B) when Chris Young becomes an All-Star.

 

in the meantime, we can see how many Wins JV racks up before that happens. thanks.

Edited September 24, 2007 by jasonxctf

[jasonxctf]

in 29 at-bats?

 

hey the comment was that Juan Uribe (whom I'm not a big fan of) never had that in the minors. He cleary did before being called up to the bigs.

[jasonxctf]

Gotta love that this guy is trying to compare Juan Uribe (minor league OBP of .315 -- !!!! -- despite playing in all hitting environments every step of the way) to Chris Young (minor league OBP of .353. Some people make me laugh.

 

 

gosh, where would i get the silly idea comparing a major leaguer with

 

.230 AVG .281OBP 20HR 65 RBI

 

to a major leaguer with

 

.239 AVG .299OBP 32HR 67RBI

 

 

[witesoxfan]

hey the comment was that Juan Uribe (whom I'm not a big fan of) never had that in the minors. He cleary did before being called up to the bigs.

 

Mike Morse had a 1.074 OPS and a .435 average for the Mariners over a stretch of 73 PAs, but I don't think they are planning on batting him in the 4 hole any time soon.

 

Same exact princple applies, except that Morse had 3 times as many plate appearances as Uribe. So, no, a week's worth of games doesn't count.

[Gene Honda Civic]

To anyone with a remedial knowledge of projecting minor league stats (by far the most reliable tool when evaluating young talent) Uribe never had a .360 OBP. You can point to those 29 at bats in 2003, but they hold ZERO predictive power. That's the point, and the reason I told you to check it again.

 

Young, meanwhile, showed improvement at every minor league stop, cutting down on strikeouts, increasing walks, and had a minor league OBP over 350... And his OBP in full season ball average more like .360+. He doesn't have a good OBP this year in his initial major league season, but he's walked 42 times this season, 8 more than Uribe's career high at any level. He walked in about 12% of his PA in his last three minor league seasons, and is an incredibly good bet that he'll figure out how to take a walk at the major league level.

 

There's a very good chance that Young finishes his major league career with a AVG below .270. But if that's how you judge a player, you're gonna end up with a team full of Pierres, Owens', and a lot of "L"s. Young has holes in his game to be sure, but over the course of his professional career he's been able to raise his game at each successive level. Learning is a skill, as is being coachable. Just ask Uribe.

 

Comparing Young to Juan Uribe based on a few counting stats is childishly myopic. Comparing the two based on 29 AAA at-bats in Colorado Springs is just comical.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Gene Honda Civic

[Maverick0984]

To anyone with a remedial knowledge of projecting minor league stats (by far the most reliable tool when evaluating young talent) Uribe never had a .360 OBP. You can point to those 29 at bats in 2003, but they hold ZERO predictive power. That's the point, and the reason I told you to check it again.

 

Young, meanwhile, showed improvement at every minor league stop, cutting down on strikeouts, increasing walks, and had a minor league OBP over 350... And his OBP in full season ball average more like .360+. He doesn't have a good OBP this year in his initial major league season, but he's walked 42 times this season, 8 more than Uribe's career high at any level. He walked in about 12% of his PA in his last three minor league seasons, and is an incredibly good bet that he'll figure out how to take a walk at the major league level.

 

There's a very good chance that Young finishes his major league career with a AVG below .270. But if that's how you judge a player, you're gonna end up with a team full of Pierres, Owens', and a lot of "L"s. Young has holes in his game to be sure, but over the course of his professional career he's been able to raise his game at each successive level. Learning is a skill, as is being coachable. Just ask Uribe.

 

Comparing Young to Juan Uribe based on a few counting stats is childishly myopic. Comparing the two based on 29 AAA at-bats in Colorado Springs is just comical.

 

Since the topic was about Javy can we stop talking about Uribe? It doesn't seem like most people are harping on that but you and 1 or 2 others.

 

I agree with all the backers of Javy. Give the guy a break, he pitched damn good this season. I'd take an above average starting pitcher over a *maybe sometime* above average CF any day.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Maverick0984

[Gene Honda Civic]

Since the topic was about Javy can we stop talking about Uribe? It doesn't seem like most people are harping on that but you and 1 or 2 others.

 

I agree with all the backers of Javy. Give the guy a break, he pitched damn good this season. I'd take an above average starting pitcher over a *maybe sometime* above average CF any day.

This is Soxtalk. If you want to frequent a site where your speech is restricted to exclusively that of the subject head (and in accordance with the blinding optimistic groupthink) I suggest you visit the site which uses a sock with wings as an emblem.

[witesoxfan]

Essentially, at any point in this thread, Cheat has suggested that

 

-Vazquez has been good this year (perhaps not, but that seems to be more of a formality)

-Chris Young's value right now is higher than Vazquez's

-Chris Young is a better player than Juan Uribe, and he's almost assured of being a much better player for a lot longer than Uribe (and why this is even being argued is beyond me)

 

It's hard to disagree with any of it.

[Rowand44]

Vaz has been fantastic. Still not as good as Bmac though, Wite.

[Gregory Pratt]

If the Sox sucked this year with Young in CF and Floyd in Javy's spot, we'd constantly hear the "Kenny was stupid for not trading for Vazquez! How could he not make starting pitching a priority?!" crap here.

 

Umm, why would we constantly talk about a trade he didn't make? that kind of thing doesn't happen all that often. I doubt people would be pining for Javier Vazquez if he hadn't been traded for.

 

Not that he hasn't been good this season, but for you to say, "we'd constantly hear..." seems off.