GM on strike

[Texsox]

And that's the key that Tex doesn't want to talk about.

 

Really, I said they were worth minimum wage, what don't I want to talk about? Many of those guys are operating equipment worth millions of dollars, in the past that equipment took some skill to operate, now it doesn't. The middle class is dying for guys like this. Too bad. Either get an MBA or adjust to a smaller pay check. Sell the house, keep your car longer, send your kids to a public school, perhaps on financial aid. My economy improves when these jobs are moved to Mexico where they belong.

[StrangeSox]

I am certain anyone here would take a decrease in pay and benefits to keep our jobs.

 

Unskilled assembly laborers on a line can earn $80k+ a year (more than the engineers designing the cars). Something's out of whack.

[StrangeSox]

Really, I said they were worth minimum wage, what don't I want to talk about? Many of those guys are operating equipment worth millions of dollars, in the past that equipment took some skill to operate, now it doesn't. The middle class is dying for guys like this. Too bad. Either get an MBA or adjust to a smaller pay check. Sell the house, keep your car longer, send your kids to a public school, perhaps on financial aid. My economy improves when these jobs are moved to Mexico where they belong.

 

On "the story" on NPR yesterday, they were talking with an ex-Chrysler line worker. She put the lifters in the engine (but had no idea what they actually did in the engine). They gave her a 100k buyout which she used to go back to school to get her nursing degree. She already had an associate's degree in business, paid for by Chrysler.

[southsider2k5]

If you think it's about healthcare, you're wrong. It's about protecting jobs. 15 years ago, there were a quarter million UAW workers with GM. Since then, due to spinoffs and plant closures, its down to about 73,000.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/24/news/compa...dex.htm?cnn=yes

Looks like the UAW has been working with GM to lower health care costs as well....

 

How many less cars are they selling?

 

The irony is that GM is going to look like the evil corporation here, but this is a by-product of people not buying American cars anymore. If people are going to buy Japanese cars, then expect American car companies to layoff employees. With the costs of legacy employees and their current employees, they aren't going to be able to compete with the Japanese on price or quality. They are too busy putting $1500 a car into health care that could be going into R&D. GM is too busy trying to decide how to fund $51 billion in unfunded future pension costs... a cost Toyota even with their record profits, doesn't face.

 

If we aren't going to buy American, don't be surprised when American companies cut costs, IE workers.

[Texsox]

How many less cars are they selling?

 

The irony is that GM is going to look like the evil corporation here, but this is a by-product of people not buying American cars anymore. If people are going to buy Japanese cars, then expect American car companies to layoff employees. With the costs of legacy employees and their current employees, they aren't going to be able to compete with the Japanese on price or quality. They are too busy putting $1500 a car into health care that could be going into R&D. GM is too busy trying to decide how to fund $51 billion in unfunded future pension costs... a cost Toyota even with their record profits, doesn't face.

 

If we aren't going to buy American, don't be surprised when American companies cut costs, IE workers.

 

Exactly. It hearkens back to the day when a person could work for a company all his life, be taken care of with health insurance and a pension. They would buy a little house in the suburbs, send their kids to school and life the middle class dream. That is dead! Doesn't happen anymore. Which probably is why we have these stresses on government programs. GM should have a few executives making $$$$ and a bunch of minimum wage guys running around who get replaced every couple of years when they want raises. I know some businesses that are leery of letting a minimum wage guy ruin a $10,000,000 CNC, but even repairs are cheaper than these guys making huge money in these jobs. Now I know why some law makers think they can tax $75,000 a year workers harder. Look how outraged people are here at these salaries.

 

Send those jobs to Mexico where they belong. If these guys can't be happy making $20,000 a year, there are workers across the river from me that will be. And then, finally, the American car makers can compete.

[NorthSideSox72]

How many less cars are they selling?

 

The irony is that GM is going to look like the evil corporation here, but this is a by-product of people not buying American cars anymore. If people are going to buy Japanese cars, then expect American car companies to layoff employees. With the costs of legacy employees and their current employees, they aren't going to be able to compete with the Japanese on price or quality. They are too busy putting $1500 a car into health care that could be going into R&D. GM is too busy trying to decide how to fund $51 billion in unfunded future pension costs... a cost Toyota even with their record profits, doesn't face.

 

If we aren't going to buy American, don't be surprised when American companies cut costs, IE workers.

Let's be clear - people might "buy American" if American car companies made cars that were at least as good as their Japanese counterparts. Unfortunately, they do not.

 

[kapkomet]

Let's be clear - people might "buy American" if American car companies made cars that were at least as good as their Japanese counterparts. Unfortunately, they do not.

^^^^

 

I gotta be honest, I said I would never buy a Toyota. But for the price AND RELIABILITY (parts don't mysteriously break down at 75,001 of a 75,000 mile warranty), I got a Camry. It is a good car.

 

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Does it take $30+ an hour plus pension plus paid health care to screw on a f***ing bolt or push a button?

 

 

If you are a member of the UAW..........the answer would be yes. And that's why they wont have anymore jobs left in the near future.

[NorthSideSox72]

^^^^

 

I gotta be honest, I said I would never buy a Toyota. But for the price AND RELIABILITY (parts don't mysteriously break down at 75,001 of a 75,000 mile warranty), I got a Camry. It is a good car.

And since Camrys are not made here in the U.S., employing American workers, I think the whole "buy American, protect America" thing has lost some of its footing.

 

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Really, I said they were worth minimum wage, what don't I want to talk about? Many of those guys are operating equipment worth millions of dollars, in the past that equipment took some skill to operate, now it doesn't. The middle class is dying for guys like this. Too bad. Either get an MBA or adjust to a smaller pay check. Sell the house, keep your car longer, send your kids to a public school, perhaps on financial aid. My economy improves when these jobs are moved to Mexico where they belong.

 

You sarcasm aside, you just don't seem to grasp the fact that if these people don't take pay and benefit cuts GM will never be able to compete with the Japanese and these people will be out of work. Thats a much bigger pay and benefit cut than the company is asking for now.

[kapkomet]

And since Camrys are not made here in the U.S., employing American workers, I think the whole "buy American, protect America" thing has lost some of its footing.

Actually they are - and Americans are being employed to make them.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And since Camrys are not made here in the U.S., employing American workers, I think the whole "buy American, protect America" thing has lost some of its footing.

 

 

Actually, a large number of foregin cars ARE made in America, while an increasing number of "American" cars are made in Canada or Mexico. The lines of "buy American" are very blurry these days.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Actually they are - and Americans are being employed to make them.

 

 

To say nothing of the fact that the Japanese are able to do that and still clean up the floor with the "Big 3". GM, Ford and Chrysler are paying a heavy price for their arrogance all those years when they thought they were immune to foregin competition.

[NorthSideSox72]

Whoa - did I type "not" made in America? I meant ARE made in America. Sorry. No idea why I typed it that way.

 

[southsider2k5]

Ford might be joining GM on strike

 

http://www.wlky.com/news/14196518/detail.html

[Chisoxfn]

Let's be clear - people might "buy American" if American car companies made cars that were at least as good as their Japanese counterparts. Unfortunately, they do not.

There are a lot of Japanese counterparts that are more expensive:

For example

Toyota 4Runner, while a great car, is a lot more money than a Ford Explorer or Chevy Tahoe (especially after you factor in the heavy discount you get when buying the American Car)

 

Toyota Tundra is a great truck but it is also a lot more expensive than the Dodge Ram, Ford F150, and Chevy Silverado (comparing apples to apples as you have a lot of wiggle room on the american branded trucks).

 

Hell, I would never buy a Toyota as I think Honda is superior to Toyota (although Honda does not have as many models as Toyota).

[Chisoxfn]

Actually, a large number of foregin cars ARE made in America, while an increasing number of "American" cars are made in Canada or Mexico. The lines of "buy American" are very blurry these days.

My Honda Pilot is made in the USA and I'm proud of that.

[Chisoxfn]

Whoa - did I type "not" made in America? I meant ARE made in America. Sorry. No idea why I typed it that way.

I think you meant to say they are "NOW" made in America

[Balta1701]

My Honda Pilot is made in the USA and I'm proud of that.

Is it also worth noting that many of those Japanese cars that are made in America are not made here because of any actual price or efficiency reasons, but are in fact made here because of laws enacted during the wonderfully pro-capitalist Reagan years which required the Japanese auto manufacturers to open plants here in order to be allowed into the U.S. market.

 

Once companies meet those requirements, they tend to move factories outside of this country. My favorite example of course is still Toyota's decision they made a few years ago to put a new plant in Canada, when they had it narrowed down to specifically canada and the U.S. as final choices, and picked Canada citing almost exclusively the lower costs to Toyota due to Canada's national health care system.

[hitlesswonder]

picked Canada citing almost exclusively the lower costs to Toyota due to Canada's national health care system.

 

If we can finally get rid of unions that artificially drive up wages, the U.S. can be competitive without a national health care system.

[Chisoxfn]

Is it also worth noting that many of those Japanese cars that are made in America are not made here because of any actual price or efficiency reasons, but are in fact made here because of laws enacted during the wonderfully pro-capitalist Reagan years which required the Japanese auto manufacturers to open plants here in order to be allowed into the U.S. market.

 

Once companies meet those requirements, they tend to move factories outside of this country. My favorite example of course is still Toyota's decision they made a few years ago to put a new plant in Canada, when they had it narrowed down to specifically canada and the U.S. as final choices, and picked Canada citing almost exclusively the lower costs to Toyota due to Canada's national health care system.

Or in the case of the Pilot the car is pretty much exclusively made for the US/North American markets so it makes sense to have the product produced in those markets to cut down the shipping costs.

 

Than again, GM seems to do just fine shipping many of their vehicles to Mexico where it is eventually assembled. I know my Pilot is more made in a America than many GM products.

[Texsox]

You sarcasm aside, you just don't seem to grasp the fact that if these people don't take pay and benefit cuts GM will never be able to compete with the Japanese and these people will be out of work. Thats a much bigger pay and benefit cut than the company is asking for now.

 

No sarcasm Nuke, these guys are no longer worth what they think they are to the US. We can have all this stuff made in Mexico for a whole lot less. Which BTW is great for me and the border economy. So please, GM, dump these overfed union loyalists and send these jobs to Mexico. It will keep down the price of cars and let the American automakers compete.

 

And someone find a post where I have ever been pro-Union. When these $30 / hour jobs get dumped in favor of $15 per hour jobs, everyone wins. Better yet, send them to Mexico.

[Balta1701]

No sarcasm Nuke, these guys are no longer worth what they think they are to the US. We can have all this stuff made in Mexico for a whole lot less. Which BTW is great for me and the border economy. So please, GM, dump these overfed union loyalists and send these jobs to Mexico. It will keep down the price of cars and let the American automakers compete.

Of course, then the remaining question will be...how long will Americans be able to purchase cars?

[NorthSideSox72]

Of course, then the remaining question will be...how long will Americans be able to purchase cars?

Right now, the gas is a bigger issue than the cars. And I think that problem will only amplify in the coming few years (see the Investing thread).

 

[Texsox]

Of course, then the remaining question will be...how long will Americans be able to purchase cars?

 

When the car prices aren't bloated with unproductive over paid American workers salaries, more people will be able to buy them. If these guys don't want the jobs for $30/hour there are millions of Mexicans willing to come to Detroit and work those jobs for $10/hour. Just give them the chance.