The environment thread

[StrangeSox]

Obama is just as negligent and criminally liable (yea, I know, can't happen, but in reality this is true) in this as BP now.

 

You're going to have to actually explain this one.

 

[kapkomet]

You're going to have to actually explain this one.

 

 

Well, the conspiracy nut that I am says that this was sabotage. But, that's not what I meant.

 

What I mean is, by knowing what they knew when they knew it (the White House and Barack Obama specifically) they are negligent because they allowed what was an otherwise avoidable situation manifest into what this is. That's negligence, and a criminal act by definition.

 

Obvously, the office of the president can't be sued, and in that capacity, he can't be sued, but he sure as hell should be. He's got just as much slimey oil on his hands as BP now. In the beginning, of course not... but now, absolutely. Because, frankly, 3 days into this, they knew how big this was, and BP AND the White House were playing a big game of CYA.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, the conspiracy nut that I am says that this was sabotage. But, that's not what I meant.

 

What I mean is, by knowing what they knew when they knew it (the White House and Barack Obama specifically) they are negligent because they allowed what was an otherwise avoidable situation manifest into what this is. That's negligence, and a criminal act by definition.

 

Obvously, the office of the president can't be sued, and in that capacity, he can't be sued, but he sure as hell should be. He's got just as much slimey oil on his hands as BP now. In the beginning, of course not... but now, absolutely. Because, frankly, 3 days into this, they knew how big this was, and BP AND the White House were playing a big game of CYA.

You and Jas are just off your rockers on this. Seriously. You've seen me post here that ObamaCo is pretty much as bad as BushCo was on Katrina... but criminally negligent? The President? Just as responsible? Not enough LOL'ers in the world for that.

 

BP was indeed criminally negligent, as we have clearly seen. What ObamaCo has been, much like BushCo after Katrina, is managerially and administratively inept in the extreme. That, I don't see how anyone could argue.

 

[StrangeSox]

That^.

 

 

[kapkomet]

You and Jas are just off your rockers on this. Seriously. You've seen me post here that ObamaCo is pretty much as bad as BushCo was on Katrina... but criminally negligent? The President? Just as responsible? Not enough LOL'ers in the world for that.

 

BP was indeed criminally negligent, as we have clearly seen. What ObamaCo has been, much like BushCo after Katrina, is managerially and administratively inept in the extreme. That, I don't see how anyone could argue.

 

Conduct that falls below the standards of behavior established by law for the protection of others against unreasonable risk of harm. A person has acted negligently if he or she has departed from the conduct expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances.

 

In order to establish negligence as a Cause of Action under the law of torts, a plaintiff must prove that the defendant had a duty to the plaintiff, the defendant breached that duty by failing to conform to the required standard of conduct, the defendant's negligent conduct was the cause of the harm to the plaintiff, and the plaintiff was, in fact, harmed or damaged.

 

Source: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/negligence

 

Barack Obama has departed from the conduct expected of the chief executive of the United States. Barack Obama had a duty to protect this country and has failed to do so. Again, he KNEW how bad this was and chose to ignore it. He has caused great harm to the United States of America by his failure to act.

 

By legal defintion, he is negligent.

 

Now, is there a case here? Absolutely not. There is a difference.

 

Just as there is not a case here against Tony Hayward personally, but you bet your ass he's technically negligent as well.

 

This isn't "impeachment" or any other such bulls***, I'm not saying that. But I AM saying he's negligent, and laws were broken.

[NorthSideSox72]

Source: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/negligence

 

Barack Obama has departed from the conduct expected of the chief executive of the United States. Barack Obama had a duty to protect this country and has failed to do so. Again, he KNEW how bad this was and chose to ignore it. He has caused great harm to the United States of America by his failure to act.

 

By legal defintion, he is negligent.

 

Now, is there a case here? Absolutely not. There is a difference.

 

Just as there is not a case here against Tony Hayward personally, but you bet your ass he's technically negligent as well.

 

This isn't "impeachment" or any other such bulls***, I'm not saying that. But I AM saying he's negligent, and laws were broken.

show me how any laws were broken. show me how he deviated from expected conduct of the President. Show me anything of any substance. Please.

 

[StrangeSox]

It's just another attempt to deflect blame from BP or at least make Obama look as bad by comparison. The government's complacency before hand and incompetence since in this is inexcusable, but their responsibility comes no where near BP's and certainly no where near criminal actions by Obama or the White House. I'll reserve judgement on MMS officials, because there could have been greased palms there.

 

edit:

Kap, what did Obama know, and when? AFAIK BP was obfuscating and downplaying the incident for a while before anyone else saw what was really going on down there.

Edited June 16, 2010 by StrangeSox

[KipWellsFan]

show me how any laws were broken. show me how he deviated from expected conduct of the President. Show me anything of any substance. Please.

 

Since the election, Kap like so many others has become an abyss of negativism, narcissism, and knowitall-ism, there's little point in arguing with him. Has Obama made massive errors on this? Presumably. Is Obama, in comparison to previous Presidents (or other options in the 2008 election), bereft of the competence required to handle an issue like this. No, but no single individual, or organization could control such a cluster-f. Could this be such a terrible disaster that it could make Obama a one term President. Yes. But because he's been a competent President, he would leave a number of positive legacy items, even as a one term President.

[kapkomet]

Since the election, Kap like so many others has become an abyss of negativism, narcissism, and knowitall-ism, there's little point in arguing with him. Has Obama made massive errors on this? Presumably. Is Obama, in comparison to previous Presidents (or other options in the 2008 election), bereft of the competence required to handle an issue like this. No, but no single individual, or organization could control such a cluster-f. Could this be such a terrible disaster that it could make Obama a one term President. Yes. But because he's been a competent President, he would leave a number of positive legacy items, even as a one term President.

Oh, the ironies of this post with a t w I S T of two years ago. The difference is, this guy is blowing it hard core and is still loved by the masses.

The part you all want to gloss over is HE KNEW how bad this was day 3 - that's when all the offers of help started pouring in. What was he doing on day three? Flying on AFOne b****ing about AZ immigration and bashing Republicans for taking in part of the violence tendencies that this law was introducing.

 

Negligence, baby. Barack Obama is 100% negligent. Period-io.

[KipWellsFan]

Oh, the ironies of this post with a t w I S T of two years ago. The difference is, this guy is blowing it hard core and is still loved by the masses.

The part you all want to gloss over is HE KNEW how bad this was day 3 - that's when all the offers of help started pouring in. What was he doing on day three? Flying on AFOne b****ing about AZ immigration and bashing Republicans for taking in part of the violence tendencies that this law was introducing.

 

Negligence, baby. Barack Obama is 100% negligent. Period-io.

 

What masses? It took Bush getting bogged down in two wars to have similar levels of popularity/unpopularity. Obama very well might not have been paying enough attention to this, but some mild statements about the Arizona immigration debate prove nothing (and of course he said nothing about Republicans, or violent tendancies). Democrats tended to oppose the Arizona law, big whoop.

 

 

[lostfan]

Oh, the ironies of this post with a t w I S T of two years ago. The difference is, this guy is blowing it hard core and is still loved by the masses.

The part you all want to gloss over is HE KNEW how bad this was day 3 - that's when all the offers of help started pouring in. What was he doing on day three? Flying on AFOne b****ing about AZ immigration and bashing Republicans for taking in part of the violence tendencies that this law was introducing.

 

Negligence, baby. Barack Obama is 100% negligent. Period-io.

Yeah, no, not really, when's the last time you've heard actual left-wingers talk?

 

I mean, given general election in 2012 against a Republican (name one) they will probably still vote for him, but loved by the masses? Come on now. That hasn't been true for probably a year.

[StrangeSox]

Kap, what exactly did he know on day 3? When did BP actually start giving out estimates or showing video footage?

[NorthSideSox72]

Oh, the ironies of this post with a t w I S T of two years ago. The difference is, this guy is blowing it hard core and is still loved by the masses.

The part you all want to gloss over is HE KNEW how bad this was day 3 - that's when all the offers of help started pouring in. What was he doing on day three? Flying on AFOne b****ing about AZ immigration and bashing Republicans for taking in part of the violence tendencies that this law was introducing.

 

Negligence, baby. Barack Obama is 100% negligent. Period-io.

So I'd expect that if I look back to 2005, I'd see you spouting off in here about Bush being criminally negligent as well, right?

 

[bmags]

Guys, environmentalists don't actually care about the environment. That's why they can sabotage an entire eco-system just because they REALLY just hate oil and coal companies. It's pretty brillz. As brillz as kap.

[southsider2k5]

Kap, what exactly did he know on day 3? When did BP actually start giving out estimates or showing video footage?

 

NOAA knew about it hours after it happened on April 22nd.

[NorthSideSox72]

NOAA knew about it hours after it happened on April 22nd.

Knew there was a spill? Sure, so did the media and a lot of other people.

 

[southsider2k5]

Knew there was a spill? Sure, so did the media and a lot of other people.

 

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/111965

[NorthSideSox72]

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/111965

Yeah, like I said, lots of people knew. ObamaCo certainly knew, or should have known, the extent, pretty quickly. Their response was abysmal all around.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Since the election, Kap every liberal like so many others has become an abyss of negativism, narcissism, and knowitall-ism, there's little point in arguing with him them. Has Obama Bush made massive errors on this? Presumably. Is Obama Bush , in comparison to previous Presidents (or other options in the 2008 2000 and 2004 elections), bereft of the competence required to handle an issue like this. No, but no single individual, or organization could control such a cluster-f.

 

Agree with that fixed. (Pretty f'n hilarious how that's the EXACT same crap that was going on 4 years ago, only with the sides switched)

 

And btw, just to clarify, you can't be "criminally negligent." Negligence is a civil tort. Criminal you have to violate a law. I disagree with Kap that Obama was negligent, but I do think his response was pretty pathetic (and equally bad as Katrina). In reality, is there anything more he could (or should) have done regarding the leak itself? No. That's all on BP. But it should not have taken him 2 months to get "pissy" about it and use his powers as President to force the issue. He's also made some pretty retarded statements which shows he's not the savior everyone wanted/wants him to be, e.g., saying he wouldn't meet with BP leaders.

 

Also, his speech last night was a bunch of fluff BS. ZERO substance, as per usual. He's a great idealist, unfortunately he hasn't a clue how to achieve the goals he promises. And it's awesome that he's going to set up an independent third party to mediate all the claims BP is going to be forced to pay. I could have sworn we had one of those (the court system), but apparently he'd rather have a politically led committee hand out money to people based on Obama's terms, not the law. Remember though, Republicans=evil corporate lackeys!!

[NorthSideSox72]

Agree with that fixed. (Pretty f'n hilarious how that's the EXACT same crap that was going on 4 years ago, only with the sides switched)

 

And btw, just to clarify, you can't be "criminally negligent." Negligence is a civil tort. Criminal you have to violate a law. I disagree with Kap that Obama was negligent, but I do think his response was pretty pathetic (and equally bad as Katrina). In reality, is there anything more he could (or should) have done regarding the leak itself? No. That's all on BP. But it should not have taken him 2 months to get "pissy" about it and use his powers as President to force the issue. He's also made some pretty retarded statements which shows he's not the savior everyone wanted/wants him to be, e.g., saying he wouldn't meet with BP leaders.

 

Also, his speech last night was a bunch of fluff BS. ZERO substance, as per usual. He's a great idealist, unfortunately he hasn't a clue how to achieve the goals he promises. And it's awesome that he's going to set up an independent third party to mediate all the claims BP is going to be forced to pay. I could have sworn we had one of those (the court system), but apparently he'd rather have a politically led committee hand out money to people based on Obama's terms, not the law. Remember though, Republicans=evil corporate lackeys!!

You can be criminally negligent. For example, a doctor or other medical professional can be negligent to the extent that criminal prosecution occurs. It happens.

 

But I agree with your overall points.

 

[Rex Kickass]

And btw, just to clarify, you can't be "criminally negligent." Negligence is a civil tort. Criminal you have to violate a law. I disagree with Kap that Obama was negligent, but I do think his response was pretty pathetic (and equally bad as Katrina). In reality, is there anything more he could (or should) have done regarding the leak itself? No. That's all on BP. But it should not have taken him 2 months to get "pissy" about it and use his powers as President to force the issue. He's also made some pretty retarded statements which shows he's not the savior everyone wanted/wants him to be, e.g., saying he wouldn't meet with BP leaders.

 

If all we expect out of a President anymore is the ability to constantly react with the adequate form of emotion publicly, we're all f***ed as a people.

 

Could Obama's response have been better? Hell yes! Can he stop the oil? Hell no! And frankly, the worst part about this is that short of him putting on a wetsuit and diving down a mile to that pipe with a bucket of spackle, nothing is gonna stop a lot of people (with other axes to grind) from saying he isn't doing enough about this. But what does he do to make this better? Kick BP out of the gulf? Then its a government takeover and OMG SOCIALISM! Strengthen oversight over sea drilling and make regulation and oversight over this dangerous work much more strict. Then its government expansion and OMG SOCIALISM! He can't even take over the claims process for damages from this disaster without people complaining that it isn't the government's role.

 

People on the left are calling for his head because he isn't as liberal as he imagined. People on the right are calling for his head because the conservative punditocracy has moved so far to the right that Ronald Reagan would be considered a RINO these days.

 

The radicalization of our country on both sides of the fence is pretty sickening. I say this as a left wing liberal who is unafraid to stand up for the principles I believe in. But I also say this as a pragmatist by nature who recognizes that although polemics like me in this country have an important role, ideological purity doesn't help you run a country.

[bmags]

Well, now we at least know we need to hire an engineer to be president with deep experience in under water stopography.

[Rex Kickass]

Well, now we at least know we need to hire an engineer to be president with deep experience in under water stopography.

 

We did hire a President with significant underwater experience in 1976 you know.

[Jenksismyhero]

If all we expect out of a President anymore is the ability to constantly react with the adequate form of emotion publicly, we're all f***ed as a people.

 

Could Obama's response have been better? Hell yes! Can he stop the oil? Hell no! And frankly, the worst part about this is that short of him putting on a wetsuit and diving down a mile to that pipe with a bucket of spackle, nothing is gonna stop a lot of people (with other axes to grind) from saying he isn't doing enough about this. But what does he do to make this better? Kick BP out of the gulf? Then its a government takeover and OMG SOCIALISM! Strengthen oversight over sea drilling and make regulation and oversight over this dangerous work much more strict. Then its government expansion and OMG SOCIALISM! He can't even take over the claims process for damages from this disaster without people complaining that it isn't the government's role.

 

People on the left are calling for his head because he isn't as liberal as he imagined. People on the right are calling for his head because the conservative punditocracy has moved so far to the right that Ronald Reagan would be considered a RINO these days.

 

The radicalization of our country on both sides of the fence is pretty sickening. I say this as a left wing liberal who is unafraid to stand up for the principles I believe in. But I also say this as a pragmatist by nature who recognizes that although polemics like me in this country have an important role, ideological purity doesn't help you run a country.

 

What does he do better? How about fixing the problem instead of using this catastrophe to institute his agenda? Didn't you find it hilarious that during his speech last night he railed against the MMS for failing to do their job, and then his response is that there needs to be MORE regulation? How totally inconsistent is that? We’ll just add more law to this heavily regulated industry, but THIS TIME we’ll have people ENFORCE it. Oh wait. That’s exactly what didn’t happen before.

 

(on a side note, love that no one is griping about his selection of an ex-federal prosecutor to run a division set with the task of regulating the oil industry. Let’s see, someone with great managerial experience in a different industry, but not in the industry that they’ve been selected to lead….kinda reminds me of another appointment people had problems with. Michael Brown perhaps?)

 

But I know. The government will get it right this time around!

 

[Jenksismyhero]

AND, how about a meeting with BP that lasts longer than 20 minutes...