The environment thread

[kapkomet]

Indeed they could and I don't necessarily have a problem with that if that is how our courts decide to punish them.

 

DING DING DING.

 

But our president gets to do that. Barackus Castro here.

[StrangeSox]

So the solution is to let everyone in this case get f***ed like everyone else in the past, and hopefully conservatives in congress are not-retarded enough to amend laws for future environmental disasters.

 

I'll make this excruciating simple; your arguments on every issue always imply some grand, underlying conspiracy and yet-to-be-revealed facts. Oh, it won't be independent! It's all just a political power grab! It couldn't possibly be in the best interests of those affected! It's all about REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH! EVIL SOCIALISM!

 

They're all the same unsupported assertions. "Oh, you'll see! You'll all see! Then you'll be sorry!" while convienently hand-waving away any and all real-world, actually-happened counter examples. Like Exxon-Valdez or the various other times the courts f***ed it up, we're just supposed to sit back and let them f*** it up again. Then, in 20 years, maybe we can fine BP to make things right! But we have to trust them now!

 

 

[StrangeSox]

If there was a proposed amendment to the Oil Pollution Act expressly allowing the establishment and management of such a fund, would you be opposed to it?

[kapkomet]

If there was a proposed amendment to the Oil Pollution Act expressly allowing the establishment and management of such a fund, would you be opposed to it?

 

No. That would be at least the right way to do it.

 

Although, interestingly enough, Congress would just rubber stamp it, because that's what they do for Barackus Castro. But at least it would have been a feigned right way to do it instead of the shakedown that occured (I like it, because that's what happened).

[kapkomet]

So the solution is to let everyone in this case get f***ed like everyone else in the past, and hopefully conservatives in congress are not-retarded enough to amend laws for future environmental disasters.

 

I'll make this excruciating simple; your arguments on every issue always imply some grand, underlying conspiracy and yet-to-be-revealed facts. Oh, it won't be independent! It's all just a political power grab! It couldn't possibly be in the best interests of those affected! It's all about REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH! EVIL SOCIALISM!

 

They're all the same unsupported assertions. "Oh, you'll see! You'll all see! Then you'll be sorry!" while convienently hand-waving away any and all real-world, actually-happened counter examples. Like Exxon-Valdez or the various other times the courts f***ed it up, we're just supposed to sit back and let them f*** it up again. Then, in 20 years, maybe we can fine BP to make things right! But we have to trust them now!

It's because it is. The actions that have occured have lined up on a beautiful little timeline here. It's what has become established behavior for this administration. Stimulus. Health care. GM/Chrysler. Now cap and trade and the handling of yet another privately held company to beat them with a f***stick.

 

1) Build strawman or crisis situation

2) Don't let the crisis go to waste, by

3) Stepping in after it festers and builds to "negotiate" fair deal on behalf of himself representing all that is utopia, pure and blessed as the white and driven snow.

 

It's old, it's a 2 year old playbook by this man and his pals... and one stolen from FDR and even further back, Woodrow Wilson.

 

If you don't like the system, actually go through the right channels and amend the processess the proper way. Why doesn't that happen? Because it would never fly, and you people know it, because deep down, you know that doesn't represent what should be done in our country. Our president has taken the executive power and has now (again) become the legislator, judge, and executioner all in one. THAT is the problem, not that some judge f***ed up.

 

By the way, f***ups happen. It's wrong, but it's imperfect, because humanity is imperfect, unlike our Mess-----iah.

[StrangeSox]

It's because it is. The actions that have occured have lined up on a beautiful little timeline here. It's what has become established behavior for this administration. Stimulus. Health care. GM/Chrysler. Now cap and trade and the handling of yet another privately held company to beat them with a f***stick.

 

1) Build strawman or crisis situation

2) Don't let the crisis go to waste, by

3) Stepping in after it festers and builds to "negotiate" fair deal on behalf of himself representing all that is utopia, pure and blessed as the white and driven snow.

 

You fail at point one. Obama didn't build or exaggarate the financial collapse, the state of our health care system and its future direction, GM & Chrysler's situation and the impact their failure would have, anthropgenic global warming or the oil spill in the gulf. These situations all existed independent of Obama.

 

You're also accusing him of letting a situation fester, but that fails, too. Where did he sit around waiting on jobs? economy? health care? GM? Has he tried to come through with legislation, make himself look like some glorious negotiator and a great leader? Of course! But that's not quite as nefarious as you paint everything to be. Obama knew the severity of this situation and he could have stopped it, but he purposefully let it get worse and worse and worse so that he could make himself look good. That is absolutely absurd and you've nothing to back that up. You know what would have made him look great? Cleaning this s*** up ASAP, not standing around for a month while BP f***s around with the same ideas from 30 years ago that didn't work.

 

It's old, it's a 2 year old playbook by this man and his pals... and one stolen from FDR and even further back, Woodrow Wilson.

 

If you don't like the system, actually go through the right channels and amend the processess the proper way. Why doesn't that happen? Because it would never fly, and you people know it, because deep down, you know that doesn't represent what should be done in our country. Our president has taken the executive power and has now (again) become the legislator, judge, and executioner all in one. THAT is the problem, not that some judge f***ed up.

 

And just how likely would that be to happen? The GOP has already apologized to BP. They blocked attempts to lift the $75M liabilities ban several times. They're going to oppose just about anything Obama, Reid or Pelosi proposes.

 

And what about the people affected by this crisis? Oh well, life's rough, s*** happens? Wait around 20 years for the SCOTUS to cut liabilities by a factor of ten?

 

By the way, f***ups happen. It's wrong, but it's imperfect, because humanity is imperfect, unlike our Mess-----iah.

 

Please stop white-knighting BP. f***ups happen when companies have long patterns of negligence and incompetence.

 

[StrangeSox]

No. That would be at least the right way to do it.

 

Although, interestingly enough, Congress would just rubber stamp it, because that's what they do for Barackus Castro. But at least it would have been a feigned right way to do it instead of the shakedown that occured (I like it, because that's what happened).

 

The person in charge of running this fund is the same guy who ran the 9/11 fund. Why are you so convinced that it will be corrupted? I think Democrats are at least smart enough to understand the political liability those sorts of shenanigans would bring.

[kapkomet]

The person in charge of running this fund is the same guy who ran the 9/11 fund. Why are you so convinced that it will be corrupted? I think Democrats are at least smart enough to understand the political liability those sorts of shenanigans would bring.

 

 

Because he's a Kennedy lackey and certainly not "indepenent". It's easy to play shennanegins with this fund for several reasons unlike the 9/11 fund... but I won't waste my time.

[kapkomet]

You fail at point one. Obama didn't build or exaggarate the financial collapse, the state of our health care system and its future direction, GM & Chrysler's situation and the impact their failure would have, anthropgenic global warming or the oil spill in the gulf. These situations all existed independent of Obama.

 

You're also accusing him of letting a situation fester, but that fails, too. Where did he sit around waiting on jobs? economy? health care? GM? Has he tried to come through with legislation, make himself look like some glorious negotiator and a great leader? Of course! But that's not quite as nefarious as you paint everything to be. Obama knew the severity of this situation and he could have stopped it, but he purposefully let it get worse and worse and worse so that he could make himself look good. That is absolutely absurd and you've nothing to back that up. You know what would have made him look great? Cleaning this s*** up ASAP, not standing around for a month while BP f***s around with the same ideas from 30 years ago that didn't work.

 

 

 

And just how likely would that be to happen? The GOP has already apologized to BP. They blocked attempts to lift the $75M liabilities ban several times. They're going to oppose just about anything Obama, Reid or Pelosi proposes.

 

And what about the people affected by this crisis? Oh well, life's rough, s*** happens? Wait around 20 years for the SCOTUS to cut liabilities by a factor of ten?

 

 

 

Please stop white-knighting BP. f***ups happen when companies have long patterns of negligence and incompetence.

 

Show me where Obama has fixed a thing. Anything? Anywhere? Jobs? Health care? Financial issues? Oil spill? Anything?

 

All this man has done is taken money on behalf of all of these issues, put it into government hands, and redistribute the money.

[StrangeSox]

I didn't say he was successful. I said your grand conspiracy assertions are ridiculous. You're moving your goalposts around.

[kapkomet]

I didn't say he was successful. I said your grand conspiracy assertions are ridiculous. You're moving your goalposts around.

 

No, I'm not. My 1-2-3 point is exactly what has happened, and he has fixed nothing (you're the one that asserted he hasn't played this game, and I asked you what he has accomplished - if he hasn't accomplished anything, then by definition, he's not done anything) --- all the while promising what he would do. Which means he sits, lets the crisis build, plays Robin Hood, and pats himself on his back while "kick{ing} some ass".

 

Furthermore, of course he's exaggerated everything. That's the entire point, otherwise he can't sell his piles of

Edited June 18, 2010 by kapkomet

[StrangeSox]

Kap, your point 1 was full of s*** as I pointed out. I didn't say he accomplished anything. I said your conspiracy theories about Obama building strawmen, creating these situations or intentionally letting them get worse are ridiculous and without support. Those are not the same thing.

 

It would be like the only options being BP intentionally causing the spill/ not wanting to cap it or not causing the spill/ quickly capping it.

 

And you've bolstered my point about the style of all of your arguments with your response about the guy running the fund. "You'll see! You'll all see! Then you'll be sorry!"

Edited June 18, 2010 by StrangeSox

[kapkomet]

No, we "won't be sorry"... we'll never know. Kind of like that stimulus. No one has a f***ing clue where that money went - you know, all that transparancy and accountability. You see, that's the cover.

 

Again, this president INTENTIONALLY sat on his ass letting the oil destroy the coast, all so people like you would get pissed and call off all offshore drilling, all the while setting up to control a privately held company and an industry right with it.

 

Remarkably like banks, insurance, car companies, and whoever else he can villify.

[southsider2k5]

Kap, your point 1 was full of s*** as I pointed out. I didn't say he accomplished anything. I said your conspiracy theories about Obama building strawmen, creating these situations or intentionally letting them get worse are ridiculous and without support. Those are not the same thing.

 

It would be like the only options being BP intentionally causing the spill/ not wanting to cap it or not causing the spill/ quickly capping it.

 

And you've bolstered my point about the style of all of your arguments with your response about the guy running the fund. "You'll see! You'll all see! Then you'll be sorry!"

 

His administration did intentionally mislead the public to the size and scale of the disaster. Why?

[KipWellsFan]

This might seem like some incredible statement, but I think Obama is a good man. And I think for the most part he's done what he thought is best for the country. Has he got all of these things right? No. Maybe he's even gotten them all wrong. But lets be reasonable. I can support a politician without thinking he's a Messiah. In fact that's what's inherently difficult about supporting a politician. They're going to screw up, and they're going to make decisions I don't like.

 

I think Obama would like to see the American economy and the car companies recover, and the oil spill stop, not only because that's the sane thing to think, but because it's in his best political interests and those of the country. I think he cares more about his re-election, than about spreading the wealth. The idea that Obama let the oil spill so he could, turn this into a environmentalist, or socialist (which one is it) cause is probably as silly as the idea that the Bush administration let the terrorists attack so they could invade middle eastern countries. I trust these people more than that.

 

In addition, aren't GM and Chrysler doing pretty good again? And I'm not going to say this is because Obama and Congress bailed them out (they'll do that on their own). But isn't it safe to at least consider that that was a good decision, and that it might eventually turn into a profit for taxpayers?

 

And what about the stimulus? Didn't pretty much every single country do it? I kind of doubt that every government thought of it as Robin Hood stuff. Good example of groupthink, probably not a good example of all these countries perpetrating some svengalian act of secret socialism.

[southsider2k5]

This might seem like some incredible statement, but I think Obama is a good man. And I think for the most part he's done what he thought is best for the country. Has he got all of these things right? No. Maybe he's even gotten them all wrong. But lets be reasonable. I can support a politician without thinking he's a Messiah. In fact that's what's inherently difficult about supporting a politician. They're going to screw up, and they're going to make decisions I don't like.

 

I think Obama would like to see the American economy and the car companies recover, and the oil spill stop, not only because that's the sane thing to think, but because it's in his best political interests and those of the country. I think he cares more about his re-election, than about spreading the wealth. The idea that Obama let the oil spill so he could, turn this into a environmentalist, or socialist (which one is it) cause is probably as silly as the idea that the Bush administration let the terrorists attack so they could invade middle eastern countries. I trust these people more than that.

 

In addition, aren't GM and Chrysler doing pretty good again? And I'm not going to say this is because Obama and Congress bailed them out (they'll do that on their own). But isn't it safe to at least consider that that was a good decision, and that it might eventually turn into a profit for taxpayers?

 

And what about the stimulus? Didn't pretty much every single country do it? I kind of doubt that every government thought of it as Robin Hood stuff. Good example of groupthink, probably not a good example of all these countries perpetrating some svengalian act of secret socialism.

 

Thank you Toyota.

[KipWellsFan]

Thank you Toyota.

 

Is Toyota's screw-ups actually credited with their recovery? I hadn't heard that. Interesting.

[kapkomet]

Thank you Toyota.

 

 

That wasn't just coincidence, either. They burned them at the stake, drug their ass in front of Congress and made a big ass spectacle of that, too.

 

Again, it's not like we've seen this before. This is the adminstration playbook, and it works every time for suckers out there to villify what it is they want villified.

 

Saul Alinsky would be proud, because it really is textbook Saul Alinsky.

[bmags]

I'm SHOCKED that we don't get angry and demand accountability for corporations that kill our citizens, destroy our ecosystem and destroy local economies. WHAT SOCIALIST EMPIRE IS THIS?!@?!!?!?!?

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm SHOCKED that we don't get angry and demand accountability for corporations that kill our citizens, destroy our ecosystem and destroy local economies. WHAT SOCIALIST EMPIRE IS THIS?!@?!!?!?!?

 

There are two arguments here. One, that we all agree on - BP had a history of being on the cheap with their safety, and eventually it caught them in the ass, and their negligence caused the worst ecological disaster in our history. They should be made to pay for every dime that is a result of that. No one is disputing this.

 

The second argument is that Obama is using this catastrophe for political gain on multiple fronts. I'm not blind. I realize EVERY president does this to some degree, but that doesn't mean I can't complain when I think Obama steps over the line.

 

Arguing against some of Obama's moves isn't diminishing the anger or demand for accountability of BP and other like companies.

[Rex Kickass]

Show me where Obama has fixed a thing. Anything? Anywhere? Jobs? Health care? Financial issues? Oil spill? Anything?

 

Didn't GM just post a profit?

Five of the last six months we've seen job growth.

 

Those seems like problems en route to being fixed.

 

You really try to have it both ways. If Obama doesn't fix something immediately, you accuse him of dithering and not doing enough.

If he does something, anything at all, you accuse him of overreaching and trying to exploit a crisis.

 

[bmags]

There are two arguments here. One, that we all agree on - BP had a history of being on the cheap with their safety, and eventually it caught them in the ass, and their negligence caused the worst ecological disaster in our history. They should be made to pay for every dime that is a result of that. No one is disputing this.

 

The second argument is that Obama is using this catastrophe for political gain on multiple fronts. I'm not blind. I realize EVERY president does this to some degree, but that doesn't mean I can't complain when I think Obama steps over the line.

 

Arguing against some of Obama's moves isn't diminishing the anger or demand for accountability of BP and other like companies.

 

BP may have been skirting stuff, but we knew we needed major steps to get off oil before this happened, now we are just reaping what we sew, and are shocked by it. It's only going to get harder to drill. Stuff like this is only going to get more likely. But how dare we not act like this is an isolated incident and we should all go guzzle some motor oil for breakfast.

[Cknolls]

Is Toyota's screw-ups actually credited with their recovery? I hadn't heard that. Interesting.

 

 

Ask the bondholders how they are doing after being f***ed by BO? I cannot wait to see the unions negitiate contracts next year with the car cos. Conflict of interest? No, just another b job from BO.

[Rex Kickass]

Ask the bondholders how they are doing after being f***ed by BO? I cannot wait to see the unions negitiate contracts next year with the car cos. Conflict of interest? No, just another b job from BO.

 

Why don't you ask labor how happy they are with Obama. They kinda aren't.

[Jenksismyhero]

Why don't you ask labor how happy they are with Obama. They kinda aren't.

 

Well, lets be fair. Obama could provide the moon and they'd still find something to be unhappy about.