The environment thread

[Balta1701]

NSS, I'm too lazy to find where you said that you thought that there would be a comprehensive energy bill pushed through Congress this year. It's officially dead. And it's dead for probably the next decade. Maybe more.

At a press conference this afternoon, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, and Sen. John Kerry (D-MA), the Democrats' top climate and energy negotiator, acknowledged officially, and with obvious disappointment, that they lack the votes to pass legislation limiting carbon pollution, and that forthcoming energy legislation will be extremely narrow, in a bid to overcome a GOP filibuster.

 

"Many of us want to do a thorough comprehensive [climate and energy] bill that creates jobs, breaks our addiction to foreign oil, and curbs pollution," Reid said. "Unfortunately at this time we don't have a single Republican to work with in achieving this goal. For me it's terribly disappointing and it's also very dangerous. So the President, Senator Kerry and I and others, large numbers of my caucus will continue to reach out to Republicans and work with environmental and energy committees, communities, to garner the support we need to move forward on a much larger more comprehensive bill."

 

In the meantime, Reid said, the Senate will proceed imminently with a much smaller bill that will tackle four goals:

 

It will deal with BP and oil spill liability, invest in the manufacturing of natural gas vehicles, create a jobs program -- formerly called Cash for Caulkers, now called Home Star -- aimed at increasing home efficiency, and put money back in the Land and Water Conservation Fund.

 

Kerry described this as an "admittedly narrow, limited bill," but says he supports Reid's decision "because he's committed to do what we can in the time frame that we have before the August break."

Seriously...Natural Gas vehicles? Natural gas vehicles is 1 of the 4 key planks?

[kapkomet]

We go to war in Iraq, spend $1T, kill a few thousand soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis, and loss a ton of political power globally... and get nothing out of it.

 

China spends less, without all the death, destruction and loss of global political capital, and in 10 years will have gone a long way to energy independence.

 

Embarrassing.

[kapkomet]

How's this for a different perspective?

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38294088/What_Does_...ok_Like?slide=9

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

NSS, I'm too lazy to find where you said that you thought that there would be a comprehensive energy bill pushed through Congress this year. It's officially dead. And it's dead for probably the next decade. Maybe more.

Seriously...Natural Gas vehicles? Natural gas vehicles is 1 of the 4 key planks?

Year's not over yet. You know enough about politics to know the terrain changes rapidly. We'll see.

 

Aside from my prediction though, if all they can pass is that joke described in your post, I will obviously be disappointed.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

How's this for a different perspective?

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38294088/What_Does_...ok_Like?slide=9

Wow, that's actually more than I thought it was. That's a huge amount of oil in that space. You could probably combine all the fish in the gulf and it would take up a similar amount of space. That's f***ed up.

 

[Balta1701]

Aside from my prediction though, if all they can pass is that joke described in your post, I will obviously be disappointed.

I'd be surprised if they can pass that without some serious industry subsidies or something like that.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'd be surprised if they can pass that without some serious industry subsidies or something like that.

This is one of those areas where the GOP is just being flat-out two-faced. They complain of government intervention in business, overspending, etc., and say they want energy reform... but they seem just fine with subsidizing big oil. Its laughable.

 

[Balta1701]

This is one of those areas where the GOP is just being flat-out two-faced. They complain of government intervention in business, overspending, etc., and say they want energy reform... but they seem just fine with subsidizing big oil. Its laughable.

Be more cynical. Small government concepts go out the window as soon as big business can be helped by big government.

[StrangeSox]

I was in Playa del Carmen this last week and ran into someone who had worked on the Deepwater Horizon and had been drilling one of the relief wells. He echoed similar "surprised it hasn't happened before" comments.

[StrangeSox]

Toyota + Tesla working together to produce an all-electric Rav4.

 

Scientific American had an interested article in this month's issue computing CO2 emmissions for various automotive technologies. They compared All-Electric, Plug-in Hybrids and gas-electric hybrids. In a lot of regions, you ended up with less emmissions, but in the Illinois/ Indiana/ Ohio areas, you actually ended up with more emissions for all-electric and plug-ins than a regular car.

 

It's behind a subscription wall:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....plug-in-hybrids

[StrangeSox]

Also, global temperatures continue their steady rise:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....ates-new-normal

[bmags]

Scientific American had an interested article in this month's issue computing CO2 emmissions for various automotive technologies. They compared All-Electric, Plug-in Hybrids and gas-electric hybrids. In a lot of regions, you ended up with less emmissions, but in the Illinois/ Indiana/ Ohio areas, you actually ended up with more emissions for all-electric and plug-ins than a regular car.

 

It's behind a subscription wall:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....plug-in-hybrids

 

so is this because we use more coal so substituting doesn't change much? What accounts for it.

[Balta1701]

Scientific American had an interested article in this month's issue computing CO2 emmissions for various automotive technologies. They compared All-Electric, Plug-in Hybrids and gas-electric hybrids. In a lot of regions, you ended up with less emmissions, but in the Illinois/ Indiana/ Ohio areas, you actually ended up with more emissions for all-electric and plug-ins than a regular car.

 

It's behind a subscription wall:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....plug-in-hybrids

I read through that and thought it was really quite pathetically done. It assumes that the CO2 emission per unit electricity stays constant, which isn't the case. You make things vastly more efficient when you, for example, increase the electrical demand (i.e. by charging up a car) at night, since you don't have to power down the power plant as much, and thus you keep the 2nd law of thermodynamics on your side.

 

Of course, then there's the next step...you combine plug-in hybrids with an effective cap and trade system such that old coal fired power plants are at a huge disadvantage and you wind up retiring them in favor of other methods that also generate power at night. I.e. you also add the ability to shift electricity around onto the grid (i.e. the smart grid) and you suddenly have those vehicles as a place to store excess electricity generated from wind.

[Balta1701]

so is this because we use more coal so substituting doesn't change much? What accounts for it.

Coal releases more CO2 per unit energy than gasoline. That's their argument. But the mitigating factors wind up overcoming it when you do the math correctly. The big one is still that coal fired electricity plants are more efficient per unit power than the internal combustion engine because of the 2nd law.

[bmags]

there was a mother jones issue last year on the environment that had like 10 great articles, the highlight being the nuclear energy article.

[StrangeSox]

Coal releases more CO2 per unit energy than gasoline. That's their argument. But the mitigating factors wind up overcoming it when you do the math correctly. The big one is still that coal fired electricity plants are more efficient per unit power than the internal combustion engine because of the 2nd law.

 

I was skeptical of them immediately tossing out nuclear and renewables.

[kapkomet]

there was a mother jones issue last year on the environment that had like 10 great articles, the highlight being the nuclear energy article.

 

And what was their conclusion?

[Balta1701]

Dramatic increases in infant mortality, cancer and leukaemia in the Iraqi city of Fallujah, which was bombarded by US Marines in 2004, exceed those reported by survivors of the atomic bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, according to a new study.

 

Iraqi doctors in Fallujah have complained since 2005 of being overwhelmed by the number of babies with serious birth defects, ranging from a girl born with two heads to paralysis of the lower limbs. They said they were also seeing far more cancers than they did before the battle for Fallujah between US troops and insurgents.

 

Their claims have been supported by a survey showing a four-fold increase in all cancers and a 12-fold increase in childhood cancer in under-14s. Infant mortality in the city is more than four times higher than in neighbouring Jordan and eight times higher than in Kuwait.

 

Dr Chris Busby, a visiting professor at the University of Ulster and one of the authors of the survey of 4,800 individuals in Fallujah, said it is difficult to pin down the exact cause of the cancers and birth defects. He added that "to produce an effect like this, some very major mutagenic exposure must have occurred in 2004 when the attacks happened".

Link

[lostfan]

Also, global temperatures continue their steady rise:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....ates-new-normal

106 today. Still no global warming jokes. Or even "it's all a scam" rants. I'm disappointed.

[StrangeSox]

It sounds like they're hinting at DU rounds but not explicitly stating it.

[kapkomet]

It's f***ing summer, lost. You act like it never happened before.

 

[StrangeSox]

106 today. Still no global warming jokes. Or even "it's all a scam" rants. I'm disappointed.

 

Don't worry, when the next massive winter storm hits, the cognitive dissonance will kick into high gear and they'll be back to "biggest hoax ever" mode.

[lostfan]

Link

I dunno. I was there and the only thing I can remember is explosions every 5 minutes all night long, being mortared, and something that probably used to be a city but was 99% rubble.

[StrangeSox]

It's f***ing summer, lost. You act like it never happened before.

 

It's f***ing record high temperatures and more floods and more rain and more storms, kap. You act like record-high temperatures and flooding have happened before.

[lostfan]

It's f***ing summer, lost. You act like it never happened before.

Yeah that's kind of my point. In January, in the northern half of the United States, it gets cold. Not even record cold, but just cold.

 

These temps have been record highs. It's actually been raining but you can hardly tell because it all evaporates so fast.

Edited July 24, 2010 by lostfan