The environment thread

[Balta1701]

We're screwed.

Look at the bright side. The Republicans will get stuck having to deal with even more Mexicans.

[StrangeSox]

Stop being such an alarmist!

[Jenksismyhero]

This is GOOD news. I'd prefer that Chicago winters become a little warmer.

 

 

[Balta1701]

This is GOOD news. I'd prefer that Chicago winters become a little warmer.

Actually that'll probably mean more snow.

[kapkomet]

Global warming? Sure. MAN MADE global warming. Go warm yourself.

 

Climate change? Sure. MAN MADE climate change? Go warm yourself.

 

Yup. Uh huh. It's Bush's fault.

[southsider2k5]

The EPA (or really anyone for that matter, DRILL BABY DRILL!) doesn't have the capabilities to deal with spills on such a large scale.

 

That is comforting. We have these emergency agencies that can't handle emergencies.

[StrangeSox]

Global warming? Sure. MAN MADE global warming. Go warm yourself.

 

Climate change? Sure. MAN MADE climate change? Go warm yourself.

 

Yup. Uh huh. It's Bush's fault.

 

kapkomet: alternative reality enthusiast!

[StrangeSox]

That is comforting. We have these emergency agencies that can't handle emergencies.

EPA is an emergency agency?

[southsider2k5]

EPA is an emergency agency?

 

For the environment it is. What do you think a superfund sight is? Me dribbling some gas out of my tank? All though seemingly they would be more responsive to that than a 100 days of oil spewing into the Gulf of Mexico.

[StrangeSox]

For the environment it is. What do you think a superfund sight is? Me dribbling some gas out of my tank? All though seemingly they would be more responsive to that than a 100 days of oil spewing into the Gulf of Mexico.

superfund sites aren't emergency response situations. EPA is not FEMA.

[southsider2k5]

superfund sites aren't emergency response situations. EPA is not FEMA.

 

They aren't environmental emergencies? You should tell that to people living in danger of one of them.

[StrangeSox]

They are handling an emergency. They do handle superfund sites. So, they are capable of handling most emergencies, just not one that's pretty much unprecedented because another agency completely dropped the ball and the private sector cut corners.

Edited July 30, 2010 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

They are handling an emergency. They do handle superfund sites. So, they are capable of handling most emergencies, just not one that's pretty much unprecedented because another agency completely dropped the ball and the private sector cut corners.

 

That is the whole reason the damned EPA is supposed to exist! They are supposed to be the ones who prevent environmental disasters, and when they fail as usual, they are supposed to do something to fix the problem. They have been worse than worthless in the gulf. They have been to this event, what FEMA was to Hurricane Katrina.

[StrangeSox]

MMS was in charge of regulating this, not the EPA. The EPA doesn't exist to regulate oil drilling in the Gulf, sorry.

 

eta lulz at "fail as usual" 'cause without the EPA, surely the private sector would have protected our environment!

Edited July 30, 2010 by StrangeSox

[lostfan]

I thought it was a settled question for a long time now that the government isn't isn't in the business of engineering, never was, and never will be, and has no ability whatsoever to do things like fix the leaking well. Or to control disasters of unprecedented size (especially considering how the laws are written). Why is this being talked about?

[southsider2k5]

I thought it was a settled question for a long time now that the government isn't isn't in the business of engineering, never was, and never will be, and has no ability whatsoever to do things like fix the leaking well. Or to control disasters of unprecedented size (especially considering how the laws are written). Why is this being talked about?

 

So why do people still pitch a fit about Katrina and FEMA? Why don't the same standards apply?

[StrangeSox]

What does FEMA stand for? What's their mission statement?

 

Are they a regulatory agency like the EPA?

[Balta1701]

What does FEMA stand for? What's their mission statement?

 

Are they a regulatory agency like the EPA?

If done effectively, FEMA's job should actually be fairly straightforward on paper.

 

When an actual disaster hits, local and state resources are almost always going to be totally overwhelmed. You knock out communications, transportation, law enforcement, etc.

 

FEMA's job should be, right now, to sit around and think about types of disasters that can happen, to come up with contingency plans for them, and to conduct training exercises to prepare for them. Yeah you can't predict a couple planes flying into NYC buildings with much ease, but things like "Large bomb going off in downtown NYC" is something they should have planned for. Similarly..."Earthquake in Los Angeles", "Hurricane in NYC", "Dick Cheney", those sorts of disasters are obvious.

 

Then, in the event that a disaster does occur, they need to immediately take over everything. FEMA needs to say "send us every question you have". They need to order resources deployed under their schedule, deal with all the competing agencies, be a central clearinghouse for aid information, etc. They need to be the people that you call when you're surrounded by fire and you get your radio working at last, they need to be the guy you call to send in 13 billion bottles of water, etc.

 

Unfortunately, aside from James Lee Witt, FEMA's been pretty much nothing but a patronage position, and so it really hasn't done what it's supposed to do except for a very brief period in the mid-late 90's.

[StrangeSox]

Right, and that's why FEMA is criticized over incidents like Katrina -- it's their job to respond to emergency situations that need rapid action. The EPA's job is to regulate and enforce regulations. While you can say a superfund site is an "environmental emergency", you cannot compare it to FEMA's role in actual emergencies without equivocating definitions. They are not comparable organizations. And, again, it was the MMS's job to regulate the drilling, not the EPA's.

 

I don't think I'd want the EPA in charge of such a large operation, anyway. What sort of operating experience do they have with something like capping massively-damaged oil wells and deploying boom across hundreds of miles? Seems like more of a job for the Coast Guard. The EPA should be stepping up for the environmental protection now that the flow of oil is slowed/ stopped.

[Jenksismyhero]

Right, and that's why FEMA is criticized over incidents like Katrina -- it's their job to respond to emergency situations that need rapid action. The EPA's job is to regulate and enforce regulations. While you can say a superfund site is an "environmental emergency", you cannot compare it to FEMA's role in actual emergencies without equivocating definitions. They are not comparable organizations. And, again, it was the MMS's job to regulate the drilling, not the EPA's.

 

I don't think I'd want the EPA in charge of such a large operation, anyway. What sort of operating experience do they have with something like capping massively-damaged oil wells and deploying boom across hundreds of miles? Seems like more of a job for the Coast Guard. The EPA should be stepping up for the environmental protection now that the flow of oil is slowed/ stopped.

 

then why are they involved in the michigan spill?

[Balta1701]

We're screwed.

From the Kip "We're screwed" file...damn, we're really really screwed. (Nature abstract).

In the oceans, ubiquitous microscopic phototrophs (phytoplankton) account for approximately half the production of organic matter on Earth. Analyses of satellite-derived phytoplankton concentration (available since 1979) have suggested decadal-scale fluctuations linked to climate forcing, but the length of this record is insufficient to resolve longer-term trends. Here we combine available ocean transparency measurements and in situ chlorophyll observations to estimate the time dependence of phytoplankton biomass at local, regional and global scales since 1899.We observe declines in eight out of ten ocean regions, and estimate a global rate of decline of ~1% of the global median per year. Our analyses further reveal interannual to decadal phytoplankton fluctuations superimposed on long-term trends. These fluctuations are strongly correlated with basin-scale climate indices, whereas long-term declining trends are related to increasing sea surface temperatures. We conclude that global phytoplankton concentration has declined over the past century; this decline will need to be considered in future studies of marine ecosystems, geochemical cycling, ocean circulation and fisheries

 

I think this is about the appropriate reaction.

This finding – and I’m trying hard not to hyperventilate here – is not too far down the scary scale from discovering a small inbound asteroid. This is the whole ocean we’re talking about: the earth’s production of organic material is going down half a percent per year.

Here's the BBC summary version for those who don't have Nature access.

[southsider2k5]

What does FEMA stand for? What's their mission statement?

 

Are they a regulatory agency like the EPA?

 

Except the EPA isn't just a regulatory body, or at least it wasn't until about 100 days ago.

[southsider2k5]

then why are they involved in the michigan spill?

 

And involved in it before it was contained...

[StrangeSox]

then why are they involved in the michigan spill?

 

They're involved in the clean-up efforts. That's different from regulating the drilling/ piping or being in charge of stopping the leaks.

 

And involved in it before it was contained...

 

Source? The leak was reported on Monday at 8:45 AM in the pipeline. Presumably, they were able to close the pipe line and stop the leak quickly. The EPA took over clean-up operations Wednesday. edit: Maybe you're confusing contained with stopped-leaking.

 

You'll need to explain how the efforts to clean up and contain a relatively small oil leak in a pipeline is comparable to what happened in the Gulf, where the main focus has been getting the damned thing to stop leaking for 100 days. The EPA should be and, AFAIK, is involved with the efforts to clean up the spill in the ocean and on the shorelines, rivers and lakes. What would you like them to have done here?

Edited July 30, 2010 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

From the Kip "We're screwed" file...damn, we're really really screwed. (Nature abstract).

 

 

I think this is about the appropriate reaction.

Here's the BBC summary version for those who don't have Nature access.

 

Fun related fact: The ocean is a large carbon sink in part because of these types of organisms. Hooray for positive feedback cycles!