The environment thread

[StrangeSox]

They let it go?

 

[Jenksismyhero]

But y'all told me that Bp was the good guys and they weren't going to fight anything. That's the whole point. BP was going to make everything better. Remember, just because Exxon defended itself for 20 years doesn't mean that BP is going to challenge things every step of the way.

 

Of course BP was going to defend its rights at every step of the way. Which is exactly what people scoffed at when I said they'd do that in May. And which is exactly why the government needed to be fighting them as hard as possible for access and money from day 1. Like when the evil Obama forced them at gunpoint to escrow all that money.

 

I don't think anyone here said that. You're just making this up to support your view. They have rights, and they're fully within them to call bulls*** on bulls*** government numbers if they think they are bulls***.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

This is the political forum.

 

That said, BP is a large, multinational-but-foreign company who created a huge environmental and economic disaster. Why shouldn't they be demonized? Why should they be protected? I'm sick and tired of people excusing gross corporate negligence and a select few enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else, such as the gulf coast community. I dread the day the people who want no accountability and no oversight over corporations take back over the government.

 

eta: there's a good reason for the anti-corporate bias here; it's pro-people, pro-environment bias. BP, a foreign company, caused significant harm to US resources and citizens. Do I need to provide links to dozens of similar reports of how badly this has impacted gulf coast communities, areas that aren't high on the economic food chain to begin with?

 

What country do you live in? You know we have a justice system right? That people have to prove damages to be able to receive them? I demonized the crap out of BP for this. But i'm not going to throw out their right to a day in court just because I don't like them.

 

 

[kapkomet]

The difference between common sense and demonizing a company to a point of punitive measures to put them out of business because they're evil, capitalist pigs is a completely different thing.

 

No person with a lick of sense would say there doesn't need to be regulation of industry, such as BP, etc. But no person with a lick of sense would get excited at having them punished to the point of having to shut their doors either.

[Balta1701]

But no person with a lick of sense would get excited at having them punished to the point of having to shut their doors either.

We get the exact same thing every time someone gets life in prison or the death penalty though. The criminal in that case ruins a lot of peoples lives, and we allow for society, and in particular the people who were harmed, to find satisfaction in their punishment. Hell, if Usama Bin Laden was killed tomorrow, I'd expect nationwide celebrations, and I'd expect everyone here to participate.

 

The fact that they're incorporated shouldn't automatically mean that we shouldn't want them punished if they destroy the lives of thousands of people, and we should be fully justified in taking satisfaction in their punishment. And if they're not punished, then we have every right to be outraged (just like we have every right to be outraged with all the people on Wall Street who got rewarded for destroying the global economy, and just like we should celebrate if any of them ever get charged with anything).

[NorthSideSox72]

Seems to me this is much ado about nothing. BP has every right to try to fight against paying in every legal avenue afforded to them. Similarly and justifiably, the government AND the people have every right to demonize and penalize them for their actions.

 

[hawksfan61]

We get the exact same thing every time someone gets life in prison or the death penalty though. The criminal in that case ruins a lot of peoples lives, and we allow for society, and in particular the people who were harmed, to find satisfaction in their punishment. Hell, if Usama Bin Laden was killed tomorrow, I'd expect nationwide celebrations, and I'd expect everyone here to participate.

 

The fact that they're incorporated shouldn't automatically mean that we shouldn't want them punished if they destroy the lives of thousands of people, and we should be fully justified in taking satisfaction in their punishment. And if they're not punished, then we have every right to be outraged (just like we have every right to be outraged with all the people on Wall Street who got rewarded for destroying the global economy, and just like we should celebrate if any of them ever get charged with anything).

 

Will the dancing in the streets when you look at the unemployment number jump up after BP goes out of business? Don't get me wrong, BP completely FUBARd the gulf coast and they should have to pay for all of that, and if that happens to put them out of business then those are the consequences of their actions, but I certainly wouldn't feel any happiness from that outcome.

 

Comparing putting BP out of business to killing Bin Laden is laughable and completely over the top.

[Rex Kickass]

Will the dancing in the streets when you look at the unemployment number jump up after BP goes out of business? Don't get me wrong, BP completely FUBARd the gulf coast and they should have to pay for all of that, and if that happens to put them out of business then those are the consequences of their actions, but I certainly wouldn't feel any happiness from that outcome.

 

Comparing putting BP out of business to killing Bin Laden is laughable and completely over the top.

 

The idea that BP would shutter is laughable at best. What would happen? Someone else would swoop in and pick up the pieces at a discount. BP would just become ExxonMobilBP or BPValero or something like that. There isn't enough excess oil capacity for any big or even medium sized player to just let as big of a petroleum producer as BP to shut its doors.

[southsider2k5]

We get the exact same thing every time someone gets life in prison or the death penalty though. The criminal in that case ruins a lot of peoples lives, and we allow for society, and in particular the people who were harmed, to find satisfaction in their punishment. Hell, if Usama Bin Laden was killed tomorrow, I'd expect nationwide celebrations, and I'd expect everyone here to participate.

 

The fact that they're incorporated shouldn't automatically mean that we shouldn't want them punished if they destroy the lives of thousands of people, and we should be fully justified in taking satisfaction in their punishment. And if they're not punished, then we have every right to be outraged (just like we have every right to be outraged with all the people on Wall Street who got rewarded for destroying the global economy, and just like we should celebrate if any of them ever get charged with anything).

 

Except your version of punishing them, would do exactly what you are saying shouldn't be done.

[Balta1701]

Except your version of punishing them, would do exactly what you are saying shouldn't be done.

If I go out and paralyze 4 people while DUI, I clearly shouldn't go to jail, because punishing me would also punish my family and others who rely on my work and income.

[southsider2k5]

If I go out and paralyze 4 people while DUI, I clearly shouldn't go to jail, because punishing me would also punish my family and others who rely on my work and income.

 

Do you know how many ex-Aurthur Andersen accountants I have met over the years? Besides, if we held the federal government to the same standards as you want to hold BP, the nation wouldn't have its largest employer.

[Balta1701]

Do you know how many ex-Aurthur Andersen accountants I have met over the years? Besides, if we held the federal government to the same standards as you want to hold BP, the nation wouldn't have its largest employer.

The federal accounting standards canard again? Ok, I'll drop it here, because this one isn't going to go anywhere.

[Chisoxfn]

The federal accounting standards canard again? Ok, I'll drop it here, because this one isn't going to go anywhere.

The government f***ed up massively when they put Arthur out of business. KPMG did far worse things but the government knows that you can't get rid of another one of the major accounting/consulting organizations because if you do there would be an utter monopoly since most major corporations have at least 2 and usually 3 of the big 4 doing some sort of work for them.

[Balta1701]

The government f***ed up massively when they put Arthur out of business. KPMG did far worse things but the government knows that you can't get rid of another one of the major accounting/consulting organizations because if you do there would be an utter monopoly since most major corporations have at least 2 and usually 3 of the big 4 doing some sort of work for them.

"2B2F."

[Balta1701]

So that's how they'll get it through.

The tax legislation that congressional Republicans and the White House have agreed to will include extensions of the biodiesel and ethanol subsidies through 2011, says Iowa. Charles Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. The $1-a-gallon biodiesel subsidy, which lapsed at the end of 2009, would be retroactive to this year, he said.

 

Some leading Senate Democrats, including the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Max Baucus of Montana, indicated that the energy tax provisions were still to be worked out. “We’re going to have to wait the detail,” said North Dakota Sen. Kent Conrad, a member of the finance committee.

I was really hoping for a line in the sand on this one.

[mr_genius]

So that's how they'll get it through.

I was really hoping for a line in the sand on this one.

 

From what I can tell, there is no sand and there will never be any lines drawn as far as government spending is concerned. Both parties want to spend ridiculous amounts of money, just on different things. To compromise, they merely agree to all the spending.

[NorthSideSox72]

So that's how they'll get it through.

I was really hoping for a line in the sand on this one.

Such a f***ing waste of money.

 

[StrangeSox]

I can't find the post, but I know Balta commented on TVA having to significantly reduce the power output of some of their plants (Browns Ferry in particular). Here's a blog post recapping the issue.

 

Anyway, TVA is going to be adding more cooling towers to help alleviate the problem in the future. SONGS, out in southern California, is facing similar issues, as are other plants, I'm sure.

 

FWIW, a running reactor is worth about $1M/day in energy output. Reducing their three reactors to 50%, as they've had to do several times this year, costs them 1.5M/day.

[Balta1701]

Israel's worst-ever forest fire earlier this month confirms predictions on the impact of global warming in the Mediterranean basin, according to one of Israel's leading climate experts.

 

"The fire disaster in the Carmel Mountains near Haifa is a taste of the future," Guy Pe'er, co-author of Israel's National Report on Climate Change, said on Wednesday.

 

Nearly a decade ago, Pe'er and other scientists warned that warming would create conditions such as heat waves, decreased and delayed rainfall, leading to a higher risk of intense forest fires.

Advertisement: Story continues below

 

The recent four-day blaze, which destroyed some five million trees across 12,000 acres (4,800 hectares), arose from these very conditions, he said.

 

The national report predicted that a temperature increase of only 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit) compared to pre-industrial times would cause the region's desert to expand northward some 300-500 kilometers (200-30 miles).

 

Without deep cuts in global greenhouse gas emissions, the temperature increase by century's end will be closer to 3.0 C (5.4 F), scientists say.

 

In either scenario, such a change would spell the end of Mediterranean-type ecosystems in Israel, Pe'er said.

 

The fire that raged in the Carmel mountain range, which rises more than 500 metres (1,500 feet) above sea level, was preceded by eight months of drought and occurred during a heat wave with temperatures around 30 C.

Link

[Balta1701]

California owes wisconsin a thank you note.

The federal government Thursday redirected $624 million in economic stimulus funds from other states to the California high-speed rail project, bringing the total available for building the line to about $5.5 billion.

 

California was one of 11 states to share in the redistribution of $1.2 billion in high-speed rail money that had been approved for Ohio and Wisconsin.

 

When the recently elected Republican governors of the two states asked to use the funds for other proposals, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood denied the requests and shifted the money to high-speed rail projects in the other states. California's share was the largest.

Talgo Inc. will shut down its Milwaukee train manufacturing operations in 2012, leaving only a maintenance base, because plans for a high-speed rail line between Milwaukee and Madison have been abandoned, the company announced Friday.

 

The Spanish-owned company acted after the federal government withdrew nearly all of the $810 million in stimulus funding for the rail project, which Governor-elect Scott Walker had vowed to kill. Talgo had hoped to land contracts to build two trains for that line.

Link

[NorthSideSox72]

California owes wisconsin a thank you note.

 

Link

Illinois also got a chunk of that money, and so did some other states, though CA got the biggest piece. And the IL legislature is looking at a package to woo that rail company to move to Illinois instead of Wisconsin, since Illinois is continuing to do the rail projects and is so near where the current facility is.

 

Not a good start for the new governor of WI - throwing away thousands of jobs and unknown increased tourism dollars to save $2M a year.

 

[Rex Kickass]

Illinois also got a chunk of that money, and so did some other states, though CA got the biggest piece. And the IL legislature is looking at a package to woo that rail company to move to Illinois instead of Wisconsin, since Illinois is continuing to do the rail projects and is so near where the current facility is.

 

Not a good start for the new governor of WI - throwing away thousands of jobs and unknown increased tourism dollars to save $2M a year.

 

I wonder what's going to happen with the 3 billion in matching funds the Federal Government made available for NJ to build the ARC tunnel that our GOP Governor killed.

[NorthSideSox72]

I wonder what's going to happen with the 3 billion in matching funds the Federal Government made available for NJ to build the ARC tunnel that our GOP Governor killed.

I thought NY and NYC were thinking of trying to do the project themselves.

 

[Cknolls]

Yeah why would you want to fix crumbling roads and bridges when you can build an inefficient, over budget, highly subsidized, not for profit rail system? Seems like a good expenditure of capital to me.

[Balta1701]

Yeah why would you want to fix crumbling roads and bridges when you can build an inefficient, over budget, highly subsidized, not for profit rail system? Seems like a good expenditure of capital to me.

Why would you want to fix inefficient, over budget, highly subsidized, not for profit roads?