The environment thread

[BigSqwert]

REI chief Sally Jewell in the mix for Interior Secretary

 

Would be a sad departure if she left our co-op but she'd be awesome for the job.

[StrangeSox]

solar power is becoming a lot cheaper:

 

http://blog.uncommonwisdomdaily.com/solar-...ot-cheaper-9232

 

[bigruss]

solar power is becoming a lot cheaper:

 

http://blog.uncommonwisdomdaily.com/solar-...ot-cheaper-9232

 

That's great to see, how does that compare to other renewable sources and non-renewable resources?

[StrangeSox]

it's still more expensive per-kW since we don't price in the massive carbon externalities into fossil fuels.

[Balta1701]

That's great to see, how does that compare to other renewable sources and non-renewable resources?

The biggest problem with Solar continues to be that it's not a baseload power source.

 

If you can use the solar power immediately, in much of the country it's actually cheaper per KWH than coal to generate...but it doesn't always work. There's no great storage capacity, clouds do happen, and there's a requirement to continue having power generated during the evening after the sun has gone down...all of which require additional infrastructure...and that infrastructure is where the cost is.

[iamshack]

The biggest problem with Solar continues to be that it's not a baseload power source.

 

If you can use the solar power immediately, in much of the country it's actually cheaper per KWH than coal to generate...but it doesn't always work. There's no great storage capacity, clouds do happen, and there's a requirement to continue having power generated during the evening after the sun has gone down...all of which require additional infrastructure...and that infrastructure is where the cost is.

It also provides incredibly challenging issues in ramping other energy sources to meet load demand...the sun tends to go down right when demand is rapidly increasing, which means your conventional resources not only have to meet the increased demand, but also make up for the dropoff from intermittent resources. Coordinating all these things inevitably increases the cost to serve when utilizing large quantities of intermittent resources.

[StrangeSox]

aren't peak loads during the day, at least where solar is practical, because of A/C loads?

[Balta1701]

aren't peak loads during the day, at least where solar is practical, because of A/C loads?

Somewhat...but the suns intensity starts declining after noon, while heat continues. ACs and heat often continue throughout the evening and through the night as well.

 

The real problem is that you have to have something that can match the max capacity at each hour. If the sun has lost most of its intensity by 7 p.m. (say it's declined 90%), but power consumption has only declined 10%, then you have an 80% gap to make up. That gap will narrow as AC loads decrease, but your infrastructure has to be able to fill that entire gap at its largest point.

 

Worse, it isn't a zero-sum game to turn a power plant on and off. A coal plant, for example, takes a lot of energy to heat up to the point where it can generate electricity. It's horribly inefficient to operate a plant like that for 3 hours a day.

 

There are ways to do that. A smart nationwide grid could do it. Solar combined with integrated storage systems can do so. Combining solar and wind can help. Solar, Wind, and a small gas backup system, with planned storage...could do it...probably right now...but now you're back to talking about a major, national investment to pull it off.

[iamshack]

aren't peak loads during the day, at least where solar is practical, because of A/C loads?

Obviously this varies by season and location.

 

For most locations, there is a peak in the morning when most people wake up and start stirring, businesses start opening, etc. Then the demand gradually rises as more people filter into work later in the day. Then in the early to late afternoon, demand generally drops off a bit as businesses start closing and people start heading home from school and work.

 

Then usually around 5-7 pm there is another peak (the largest peak) where folks get home and begin cooking and watching tv and people head into bars and bowling alleys.

 

As far as I know, as a general rule, almost everyone has their highest demand during the evening peak.

[Balta1701]

Obviously this varies by season and location.

 

For most locations, there is a peak in the morning when most people wake up and start stirring, businesses start opening, etc. Then the demand gradually rises as more people filter into work later in the day. Then in the early to late afternoon, demand generally drops off a bit as businesses start closing and people start heading home from school and work.

 

Then usually around 5-7 pm there is another peak (the largest peak) where folks get home and begin cooking and watching tv and people head into bars and bowling alleys.

 

As far as I know, as a general rule, almost everyone has their highest demand during the evening peak.

Here's a summer version of the graph from Dallas, TX.

 

Also worth noting...in a city, you also have to consider the urban heat island effect, so a city takes longer to cool off in the evening anyway.

 

[iamshack]

Here's a summer version of the graph from Dallas, TX.

 

Also worth noting...in a city, you also have to consider the urban heat island effect, so a city takes longer to cool off in the evening anyway.

Yeah, I look at these graphs all day....there are some variations by season and geographic location, but generally that is what most areas load graph looks like.

[StrangeSox]

thanks, both of you

[iamshack]

Somewhat...but the suns intensity starts declining after noon, while heat continues. ACs and heat often continue throughout the evening and through the night as well.

 

The real problem is that you have to have something that can match the max capacity at each hour. If the sun has lost most of its intensity by 7 p.m. (say it's declined 90%), but power consumption has only declined 10%, then you have an 80% gap to make up. That gap will narrow as AC loads decrease, but your infrastructure has to be able to fill that entire gap at its largest point.

 

Worse, it isn't a zero-sum game to turn a power plant on and off. A coal plant, for example, takes a lot of energy to heat up to the point where it can generate electricity. It's horribly inefficient to operate a plant like that for 3 hours a day.

 

There are ways to do that. A smart nationwide grid could do it. Solar combined with integrated storage systems can do so. Combining solar and wind can help. Solar, Wind, and a small gas backup system, with planned storage...could do it...probably right now...but now you're back to talking about a major, national investment to pull it off.

I'm not sure about that...it would take a hell of a lot of planned storage if that is the case. Wind and solar can literally stop at any second. If you've got a large percentage of your load served with an intermittent resource, you've got to be prepared to almost instantly replace that power with a conventional fuels resource. This means a modern natural gas plant, and it means a modern natural gas plant that is already online. A lot of work and money goes into keeping a modern natural gas plant running, even when it's at minimum capacity. Once you're already paying for the plant to be online, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from an economic or reliability standpoint to keep it at minimum loads and serve a significant percentage of your load with intermittent resources.

Edited February 5, 2013 by iamshack

[bigruss]

I'm not sure about that...it would take a hell of a lot of planned storage if that is the case. Wind and solar can literally stop at any second. If you've got a large percentage of your load served with an intermittent resource, you've got to be prepared to almost instantly replace that power with a conventional fuels resource. This means a modern natural gas plant, and it means a modern natural gas plant that is already online. A lot of work and money goes into keeping a modern natural gas plant running, even when it's at minimum capacity. Once you're already paying for the plant to be online, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to keep it at minimum loads and serve a significant percentage of your load with intermittent resources.

There would be national security concerns with a vast dependence on solar as a primary energy source with that little of a backup (think the Matrix haha).

[Balta1701]

I'm not sure about that...it would take a hell of a lot of planned storage if that is the case.

Yup.

 

I just compare that to the costs of Sandy + Katrina and say...well...that $200 billion would have been a great downpayment on it.

[Balta1701]

There would be national security concerns with a vast dependence on solar as a primary energy source with that little of a backup (think the Matrix haha).

Compare that to the national security concerns of a vast dependence on fossil fuels which are found overseas in highly unstable areas?

[iamshack]

Yup.

 

I just compare that to the costs of Sandy + Katrina and say...well...that $200 billion would have been a great downpayment on it.

I think the technology will get there...right now we have to do what you said...invest in upgrading the grid while the rest of the technology develops.

[StrangeSox]

Compare that to the national security concerns of a vast dependence on fossil fuels which are found overseas in highly unstable areas?

Well, our coal and NG isn't really, right?

[iamshack]

Well, our coal and NG isn't really, right?

Nope. We actually control our own electricity dependence fairly well right now...however, there are certainly plenty of other reasons to develop alternate energy sources now while we have cheap access to conventional sources.

[StrangeSox]

oh absolutely. and as I said earlier, that "cheapness" exists because the huge costs of carbon emissions aren't actually priced in.

[iamshack]

oh absolutely. and as I said earlier, that "cheapness" exists because the huge costs of carbon emissions aren't actually priced in.

They are now in California!

[StrangeSox]

The End of Cod

 

The cod fishery of the North Atlantic and the livelihoods it sustained for 300 years are basically finished. The New England Fishery Management Council has reduced the cod catch by 77% in the Gulf of Maine, 61% on Georges Bank. The reality is that the fishers probably won’t even catch that tiny quota. The fish are gone, driven to near extinction not by the family fishermen that work out of the small ports in New England but by giant industrial fishing trawlers that are taking every fish of any edible size out of the oceans at an alarming rate.

 

Annual catch off of the Grand Bank:

 

 

This is why I'm highly skeptical of relying on technology for any sort of long-term ecological/environmental solutions--more often than not, technological advances have just made it easier and more profitable to strip ever-more resources out of the environment. And it's a labor/economic problem as well as the industry that a lot of these small New England towns relied on is simply gone and not coming back, just like Midwest manufacturing towns, a lot of mining towns and PNW logging towns.

[BigSqwert]

REI chief Sally Jewell in the mix for Interior Secretary

 

Would be a sad departure if she left our co-op but she'd be awesome for the job.

Looks like it's a done deal. She'll definitely be missed at REI as she was HIGHLY respected.

[Jenksismyhero]

The End of Cod

 

 

 

This is why I'm highly skeptical of relying on technology for any sort of long-term ecological/environmental solutions--more often than not, technological advances have just made it easier and more profitable to strip ever-more resources out of the environment. And it's a labor/economic problem as well as the industry that a lot of these small New England towns relied on is simply gone and not coming back, just like Midwest manufacturing towns, a lot of mining towns and PNW logging towns.

 

No more Filet-o-Fish

 

Edit: Nevermind! McDonald's uses the Atlantic Pollock, not Cod. http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-N...stainable-label

Edited February 6, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

McDonalds has actually switched all of their sfish to sustainable pollock

http://blogs.edf.org/edfish/2013/01/29/mcd...-were-lovin-it/

 

http://environmentalheadlines.com/ct/2013/...o-labeled-fish/

Edited February 6, 2013 by StrangeSox