The environment thread

[NorthSideSox72]

No, the response of "OMG THE ICE IS MELTING EVERYONE RUN FOR THE HILLS!" i'm attributing to Al Gore, who started this nonsense that climate change was an issue that would result in immediate, catastrophic problems. It's funny when you read the stories about this study, the fact that it's going to take HUNDREDS of years to melt is very much secondary to the story. It sells better when you say the ice shelf is melting and ocean levels will rise 10 feet and there's nothing we can do about. I think that comes directly from the success of an Inconvenient Truth and the like. It created an entire generation of people who actually think that way, and so of course the media is going to play it up to them.

 

Hell, Balta, who knows this stuff better than anyone, said he would sell his ocean front property. Why? We have 2-300 years until this becomes an issue. And as I said before, whose to say it's going to be an issue then? Who's to say we'll even be on Earth then?

Well first of all, it will take a couple hundred years to reach full impact of this particular event. That doesn't mean the effect is zero for 200 years - that means it will go up, all else equal, by that amount, over that time period. Not sure what the curve looks like, but vaguely, if it is 4 feet in rise in 200 years, it is 2 feet in 100, which is plenty to cause some areas major problems.

 

You are also dismissing the fact that there are events like this happening in other places too, and they have an additive effect.

 

If you want to pretend this is some Al Gore conspiracy, go ahead, but the science is pretty clear. This is happening. And I guess for me, I don't like the idea that we're doing significant harm now AND for the future. I'd rather not make things worse for my grandkids in a hundred years.

 

Now, if you want to discuss what to do about it an how, there are all kinds of great discussions to be had there.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Yeah, again, i'm not saying this is some Al Gore conspiracy. I'm saying the response is an overreaction and Gore played a large part in creating a general panic when it comes to the effect of climate change.

[StrangeSox]

Well first of all, it will take a couple hundred years to reach full impact of this particular event. That doesn't mean the effect is zero for 200 years - that means it will go up, all else equal, by that amount, over that time period. Not sure what the curve looks like, but vaguely, if it is 4 feet in rise in 200 years, it is 2 feet in 100, which is plenty to cause some areas major problems.

 

You are also dismissing the fact that there are events like this happening in other places too, and they have an additive effect.

 

If you want to pretend this is some Al Gore conspiracy, go ahead, but the science is pretty clear. This is happening. And I guess for me, I don't like the idea that we're doing significant harm now AND for the future. I'd rather not make things worse for my grandkids in a hundred years.

 

Now, if you want to discuss what to do about it an how, there are all kinds of great discussions to be had there.

 

It's anticipated to start slowly and accelerate towards the end, not be a linear rise. So people 100 years from now can say the same "why should we care!? it's probably not even real!" crap they are now, but people 120 years from now will have catastrophic sea level rise on their hands.

[Balta1701]

It's anticipated to start slowly and accelerate towards the end, not be a linear rise. So people 100 years from now can say the same "why should we care!? it's probably not even real!" crap they are now, but people 120 years from now will have catastrophic sea level rise on their hands.

Every inch of sea level rise we've already had pushed the peak storm surge from hurricane sandy 25 feet further inland.

[EvilMonkey]

When the people screaming about global warming the loudest adjust their personal lives as if it were important on their own, without waiting for government to FORCE them, and everyone else, to do so, then I will give them a listen. Do we really need global warming, i mean, climate change, conferences at exotic destinations all around the globe where people travel to in CO2 spewing jets just to castigate the sheeple because they like to drive Chargers instead of Priuses? Teleconference, sell your private jet, take commercial air if you must. Stop the limos, downsize your house, without being forced to by governent actions, then I will listen.

 

besides, it may end up being cheaper to just use our technology and resources to learn to adapt to the change instead of thinking that we can somehow change it 'back'.

[ptatc]

Every inch of sea level rise we've already had pushed the peak storm surge from hurricane sandy 25 feet further inland.

Finally, a reason to live in the Midwest. After this winter, I was having difficulty finding a reason to stay here.

[Balta1701]

When the people screaming about global warming the loudest adjust their personal lives as if it were important on their own, without waiting for government to FORCE them, and everyone else, to do so, then I will give them a listen. Do we really need global warming, i mean, climate change, conferences at exotic destinations all around the globe where people travel to in CO2 spewing jets just to castigate the sheeple because they like to drive Chargers instead of Priuses? Teleconference, sell your private jet, take commercial air if you must. Stop the limos, downsize your house, without being forced to by governent actions, then I will listen.

 

besides, it may end up being cheaper to just use our technology and resources to learn to adapt to the change instead of thinking that we can somehow change it 'back'.

Seriously, anyone who thinks this hasn't sat down and added up the GDP value of "new york city" and "florida".

[StrangeSox]

my last post was wrong, this covers how the terms have been used in much better detail:

 

http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-ch...bal-warming.htm

 

basically, they've both been used equally in the scientific literature forever, but it wasn't until Republicans deliberately started referring to it as "climate change" exclusively that usage started diverging in common usage.

[Jake]

The alarms were sounding is because things have to happen right now or else we won't be able to deal with the consequences much later. This is a great test of one of humanity's greatest weaknesses. We suck at making short-term sacrifices for long-term gains, even when we are perfectly capable of understanding how dumb the thing we're doing is. It's like the classic study where they tell the kid that if they don't eat the marshmallow in front of them for 15 minutes, they'll get to eat two marshallows. Those motherf***ers always eat the marshmallow before 15 minutes passes

[EvilMonkey]

Seriously, anyone who thinks this hasn't sat down and added up the GDP value of "new york city" and "florida".

Way to just cruise on by the first part.

 

[Balta1701]

Way to just cruise on by the first part.

You say that to the person who biked into his office in January any time it was more than -4°C and wonder why I don't bother replying.

[EvilMonkey]

You say that to the person who biked into his office in January any time it was more than -4°C and wonder why I don't bother replying.

You and ED Begley Jr are about the only ones. I'll wait until I see Algore and others of his ilk act like it is important and do it without being forced to by law.

[Jenksismyhero]

The alarms were sounding is because things have to happen right now or else we won't be able to deal with the consequences much later. This is a great test of one of humanity's greatest weaknesses. We suck at making short-term sacrifices for long-term gains, even when we are perfectly capable of understanding how dumb the thing we're doing is. It's like the classic study where they tell the kid that if they don't eat the marshmallow in front of them for 15 minutes, they'll get to eat two marshallows. Those motherf***ers always eat the marshmallow before 15 minutes passes

 

They said there's nothing we can do to stop it, so... what should we do?

[NorthSideSox72]

Just to be clear, the concensus in the scientific community about AGW has been there since the 50's. Was Al Gore around then? Gore was a loudspeaker, he's not a scientist or anyone who has actually changed any scientific results.

 

They said there's nothing we can do to stop it, so... what should we do?

You are doing this intentionally, you know that's not really true. It is true that this specific ice shelf cleaving off can't be stopped. It is patently false that nothing can be done about climate change and rising ocean levels. There just has to be the understanding that some of the damage is already programmed in. Using that as an excuse to do nothing is like keeping your hand in a tank of pirahnas because they already got one finger.

 

[Balta1701]

You and ED Begley Jr are about the only ones. I'll wait until I see Algore and others of his ilk act like it is important and do it without being forced to by law.

Without acknowledging the stupid part of this post...the other real point is that I firmly believe, as do many, that right now we have the technology to solve this problem without causing a significant deterioration in anyone's quality of life, including people's ability to do things like drive to work, turn on the AC, and travel to conferences, but what is lacking is political will.

[bmags]

You and ED Begley Jr are about the only ones. I'll wait until I see Algore and others of his ilk act like it is important and do it without being forced to by law.

 

You can thank anyone who lives in a densely populated area for doing their part. Moving to Queens does more to combat climate change than buying a Tesla in Houston.

[Jenksismyhero]

Balta, et al, what's with this?

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environme...rming-data.html

[StrangeSox]

Booker's a crank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_B...iews_on_science

 

eta: the Telegraph article also links to another crank's blog which is "reporting" on NOAA/NASA data adjustments that happened years ago. NASA explained why the adjustments were made seven years ago.

 

http://www.geotimes.org/aug07/article.html...ra081607_2.html

 

also addressed here: http://www.skepticalscience.com/1934-hotte...ntermediate.htm

 

This is all very old news.

Edited June 23, 2014 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Birds Bursting Into Flames over State of the Art Solar Plant

[iamshack]

Birds Bursting Into Flames over State of the Art Solar Plant

I've driven by this place a few times...it is pretty incredible how bright it is.

[Chisoxfn]

I've driven by this place a few times...it is pretty incredible how bright it is.

This is the place that is like an hour outside of Vegas right (West of Vegas, kind of on the way to California, right)?

[StrangeSox]

This is the place that is like an hour outside of Vegas right (West of Vegas, kind of on the way to California, right)?

 

yeah, you can see it on google, it's right off of I-15:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ivanpah+S...1620c57d7b15ade

[iamshack]

This is the place that is like an hour outside of Vegas right (West of Vegas, kind of on the way to California, right)?

Yeah, it's near Primm. About an hour southwest of Vegas.

 

We're trying to get approval from our utilities commission to build a 200 MW solar facility on the Moapa Native American tribe's land. I'll be interested to see whether the technology is similar to Ivanpah or not.

Edited August 19, 2014 by iamshack

[Chisoxfn]

Yeah, it's near Primm. About an hour southwest of Vegas.

 

We're trying to get approval from our utilities commission to build a 200 MW solar facility on the Moapa Native American tribe's land. I'll be interested to see whether the technology is similar to Ivanpah or not.

I remember when they were building that I was wondering what the heck was going on out there and then finally I saw when it was completed and was like, whoah. At first, all you could see was just massive towers being built in the middle of nowhere when it started (and there were no signs off the freeway, like you sometimes expect out in areas kind of in the middle of nowhere (like when you are passing a nuclear plant, you usually see a sign or something).

[StrangeSox]

I remember when they were building that I was wondering what the heck was going on out there and then finally I saw when it was completed and was like, whoah. At first, all you could see was just massive towers being built in the middle of nowhere when it started (and there were no signs off the freeway, like you sometimes expect out in areas kind of in the middle of nowhere (like when you are passing a nuclear plant, you usually see a sign or something).

 

You'd be surprised how many of the nuke plants have zero signing and are a huge pain in the ass to find.