The environment thread

[StrangeSox]

I've heard from some folks in the energy industry in California that the state is "overproducing" and that a lot of solar installations just really aren't profitable right now. Even natural gas units are getting shuttered due to lack of demand.

[iamshack]

I've heard from some folks in the energy industry in California that the state is "overproducing" and that a lot of solar installations just really aren't profitable right now. Even natural gas units are getting shuttered due to lack of demand.

I can't really speak in terms of their profitability, but there are certainly days, or more prominently, certain portions of most days, when the CAISO has overgeneration due to solar. A lot of times this is because consumption levels off or even decreases across the late morning and early afternoons, which is often when solar facilities are building towards peak production. Because most utilities are optimizing across a 24 hour or 48 hour horizon, it is more economic to leave certain fossil fuel baseload resources online during these same hours, which, along with the solar generation, results in the overgeneration.

 

This is one of the issues that inspired the EIM. With the Energy Imbalance Market in place now, and expanding rapidly, other utilities and municipalities can consume this overgeneration as a result of diversification of loads and resources. While this is still not ideal, it is much better than having to shut down solar facilities or feather the blades of wind turbines. Ultimately, one day the energy produced by these solar facilities will be able to be converted to storage when it is not needed and utilized across the peak hours of the morning and the evening when it is needed most.

Edited April 7, 2016 by iamshack

[Chisoxfn]

I'm a big believer in getting us to live more carbon neutral lives, although, I still point out that we as American's can only do so much, but I still believe we have a responsibility. Jesus, I think I'm turning into a liberal hippy. I thought when you made more money and aged the opposite was supposed to happen.

 

That said, it can't be pie in the sky and it has to grade in over time, but it is important. No, we are not the only reason the earth is getting hotter, but I find it apalling that people don't think that humans play some form / factor. Common sense tells me spewing more chemicals and Co2 into the air can't possibly be a good thing. I like Jerry Brown though. California has plenty of issues still, but there have been a few decisions made where the government took the long (vs. the short) and I like that train of thought.

 

That said, while it is nice that CA is doing all these things around solar / wind, the whole thing has been relatively botched and there is a lot of negative press regarding useage, etc. New technology related to storage, etc, has to come around to truly make these systems more effective and actually beneficial. Recently all the gov has done around this stuff is bailed out big investors / conglomerates (including Google) in some of these projects.

[iamshack]

I'm a big believer in getting us to live more carbon neutral lives, although, I still point out that we as American's can only do so much, but I still believe we have a responsibility. Jesus, I think I'm turning into a liberal hippy. I thought when you made more money and aged the opposite was supposed to happen.

 

That said, it can't be pie in the sky and it has to grade in over time, but it is important. No, we are not the only reason the earth is getting hotter, but I find it apalling that people don't think that humans play some form / factor. Common sense tells me spewing more chemicals and Co2 into the air can't possibly be a good thing. I like Jerry Brown though. California has plenty of issues still, but there have been a few decisions made where the government took the long (vs. the short) and I like that train of thought.

 

That said, while it is nice that CA is doing all these things around solar / wind, the whole thing has been relatively botched and there is a lot of negative press regarding useage, etc. New technology related to storage, etc, has to come around to truly make these systems more effective and actually beneficial. Recently all the gov has done around this stuff is bailed out big investors / conglomerates (including Google) in some of these projects.

Interesting to hear your point of view as a resident of California, Jason.

 

I will say, getting the resources in the ground, while it doesn't seem to make the most sense today, will begin paying off much more shortly. For the technologies to improve, someone has to actually put it into practice, and recognize some of the practical realities of them.

 

No one ever said this stuff was going to be easy, and everyone is going to have to take their growing pains - which California has thus far borne the brunt of a lot of - but as is written in the article, for a lot of these things, the most critical thing is they have showed that it can be done. Now it is time for others to step up and put these things into practice, and take some of the economic pressure off of California.

[Chisoxfn]

Interesting to hear your point of view as a resident of California, Jason.

 

I will say, getting the resources in the ground, while it doesn't seem to make the most sense today, will begin paying off much more shortly. For the technologies to improve, someone has to actually put it into practice, and recognize some of the practical realities of them.

 

No one ever said this stuff was going to be easy, and everyone is going to have to take their growing pains - which California has thus far borne the brunt of a lot of - but as is written in the article, for a lot of these things, the most critical thing is they have showed that it can be done. Now it is time for others to step up and put these things into practice, and take some of the economic pressure off of California.

This is a total tangent, but I think of the NY Subway system or even the L train in Chicago. Two mass transit systems that by my accounts are massive successes in terms of infrastructure and value they have added to there respective cities over the years (I don't actually know what the actual economic cost / benefit is) and than I think about how if we built something like today, how impossible it would be to successfully do it or how absurd the costs would be and it makes me wonder, how can we be more efficient or was stuff like the subway's really that absurdly expensive even way back when but looking a generation later, it is something that ultimately would be extremely valuable (this goes back to the long). Or even something like Hoover Damn.

 

Oh well...enough of that tangent, back on subject, I do agree with you, you can either keep pointing the finger saying well, why should we do it if the rest of the world or other states won't, but the reality is, if something is wrong or doesn't make sense, you shouldn't just keep doing it because others do. I'd like my kids kids, etc, to be able to breath air that is hopefully cleaner than air today (and certainly not significantly worse). I want a better life for my kids (just like anyone does) and that includes leaving them a better planet, etc.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm excited how quickly the cost of solar tech for homes, and the cost of commercial production of wind and solar energy, are going down. Becomes more practical every day.

 

In about 5 to 7 years, which is when I'll need to start thinking about replacing roof shingles on the house, I'll be sitting down to do the math on Solar Shingles and see what the differential cost, energy production, savings and payback period look like.

 

[Chisoxfn]

I'm excited how quickly the cost of solar tech for homes, and the cost of commercial production of wind and solar energy, are going down. Becomes more practical every day.

 

In about 5 to 7 years, which is when I'll need to start thinking about replacing roof shingles on the house, I'll be sitting down to do the math on Solar Shingles and see what the differential cost, energy production, savings and payback period look like.

It will be really nice when the actual storage mechanisms get cheaper. Tesla / Solar City's current product, why better than what existed previously, is still not that good, but once you get to the point you can store the power, you can technically be off the grid and energy sufficient (by and large) and that is a pretty nice concept.

[NorthSideSox72]

It will be really nice when the actual storage mechanisms get cheaper. Tesla / Solar City's current product, why better than what existed previously, is still not that good, but once you get to the point you can store the power, you can technically be off the grid and energy sufficient (by and large) and that is a pretty nice concept.

I figure 5 to 7 years is plenty for the tech to mature quite a bit.

 

But even before then, ComEd allows Net Billing. So you can push surplus during the day and get a rate back (which is a little below the pull rate) on what you push, and then pull as needed at night. That will all be part of my math, when I get to it.

 

[StrangeSox]

I figure 5 to 7 years is plenty for the tech to mature quite a bit.

 

But even before then, ComEd allows Net Billing. So you can push surplus during the day and get a rate back (which is a little below the pull rate) on what you push, and then pull as needed at night. That will all be part of my math, when I get to it.

 

Other solar-heavy states are running into problems with that, though. The way we pay for "the grid" is through taxes/fees on our electric bill that are tied to our kWh amounts. When you start having enough people feeding back into the grid rather than drawing from it, you start running short on funding routine maintenance and upgrades. Eventually, people without individual generation end up subsidizing the individual solar supplies ie a house with solar panels on it.

 

Solar City left Nevada when Nevada changed their rules and started paying home owner suppliers less.

[Chisoxfn]

I figure 5 to 7 years is plenty for the tech to mature quite a bit.

 

But even before then, ComEd allows Net Billing. So you can push surplus during the day and get a rate back (which is a little below the pull rate) on what you push, and then pull as needed at night. That will all be part of my math, when I get to it.

I don't know that net metering (billing) will exist 7 years from now. Nevada got rid of it recently and California is tetering on removing it as well (it looked like it was going to go and than got a slight extension with some revisions and as they look to accomplish a more long-term answer (right now the benefit is heavily weighted to the solar consumer and hurts the non-solar consumer and power companies (who push it back to the non-solar consumer).

 

Edit: Or what Strange said above.

[southsider2k5]

I don't know that net metering (billing) will exist 7 years from now. Nevada got rid of it recently and California is tetering on removing it as well (it looked like it was going to go and than got a slight extension with some revisions and as they look to accomplish a more long-term answer (right now the benefit is heavily weighted to the solar consumer and hurts the non-solar consumer and power companies (who push it back to the non-solar consumer).

 

Edit: Or what Strange said above.

Yeah, but if anyone can screw things up, it is the State of Illinois.

[iamshack]

Other solar-heavy states are running into problems with that, though. The way we pay for "the grid" is through taxes/fees on our electric bill that are tied to our kWh amounts. When you start having enough people feeding back into the grid rather than drawing from it, you start running short on funding routine maintenance and upgrades. Eventually, people without individual generation end up subsidizing the individual solar supplies ie a house with solar panels on it.

 

Solar City left Nevada when Nevada changed their rules and started paying home owner suppliers less.

Ultimately, the grid then starts functioning as a massive battery for the customer, as the amount of energy that may be generated through his rooftop solar only equals his demand about .03% of the time. The other 99.97% of the time, the customer is drawing from the grid or putting energy to the grid. While there is value to the energy this consumer is putting to the grid, just how much that value is is up for debate at the moment. In Nevada, with our proximity to California, I can tap into markets where I can obtain solar MWs coming off of utility scale facilities much more cheaply (or even get paid to take it) than by paying what Solar City is asking me to pay their customers.

 

That is where the battles over net metering have arisen.

Edited April 8, 2016 by iamshack

[NorthSideSox72]

Ultimately, the grid then starts functioning as a massive battery for the customer, as the amount of energy that may be generated through his rooftop solar only equals his demand about .03% of the time. The other 99.97% of the time, the customer is drawing from the grid or putting energy to the grid. While there is value to the energy this consumer is putting to the grid, just how much that value is is up for debate at the moment. In Nevada, with our proximity to California, I can tap into markets where I can obtain solar MWs coming off of utility scale facilities much more cheaply (or even get paid to take it) than by paying what Solar City is asking me to pay their customers.

 

That is where the battles over net metering have arisen.

Interesting stuff. I'd suspect that doesn't mean net metering will disappear, but that the bid/ask spread between power in and power out will widen. The flexibility benefits all involved, but it may be as you guys noted, that it doesn't have as much value as it's being given right now.

 

[StrangeSox]

Utah Congressman Wants To Sell America’s 4th Most Popular Wildlife Refuge To Private Developers

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Utah Congressman Wants To Sell America’s 4th Most Popular Wildlife Refuge To Private Developers

Sort of sad that a Utah congressman decides this is a good idea. When PR didn't even suggest it.

 

[StrangeSox]

Sort of sad that a Utah congressman decides this is a good idea. When PR didn't even suggest it.

He has a personal crusade with about 20 supporters in the House to sell off all federal public lands to private owners.

[iamshack]

Sort of sad that a Utah congressman decides this is a good idea. When PR didn't even suggest it.

Yeah, surprising that he would be able to take such a position, coming from that state.

[Texsox]

It will be really nice when the actual storage mechanisms get cheaper. Tesla / Solar City's current product, why better than what existed previously, is still not that good, but once you get to the point you can store the power, you can technically be off the grid and energy sufficient (by and large) and that is a pretty nice concept.

 

It also depends on what you are trying to power. There are a significant number of people living off the grid now, but you have to give up some modern luxuries that most people are unwilling to give up like air conditioning.

 

http://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/living-off-the-grid/

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/family-life-...-144054081.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-sigh...xas-state-park/

 

We've been considering buying some land near Terlingue and starting a small cabin. I believe the experience would be amazing both physically and mentally.

[iamshack]

It also depends on what you are trying to power. There are a significant number of people living off the grid now, but you have to give up some modern luxuries that most people are unwilling to give up like air conditioning.

 

http://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/living-off-the-grid/

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/family-life-...-144054081.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-sigh...xas-state-park/

 

We've been considering buying some land near Terlingue and starting a small cabin. I believe the experience would be amazing both physically and mentally.

About 5 years ago, before I met my wife, when I was looking for my first home, I looked at some homes "off the grid" in Cold Creek, Nevada, which is about 40 minutes outside of Las Vegas. There is a small town there which is right next to some federally protected land, where wild horses roam around. I went and looked at a few houses on the market which had solar with batteries, as well as propane generators.

 

Honestly, I might very well have done it, if the right home had been available. I also explored buying a parcel of land there and building something, but my fear was that if something changed and I needed to sell the property, that I wouldn't be able to do so. Properties off the grid are not for everyone and often sit on the market for a long time.

[Texsox]

About 5 years ago, before I met my wife, when I was looking for my first home, I looked at some homes "off the grid" in Cold Creek, Nevada, which is about 40 minutes outside of Las Vegas. There is a small town there which is right next to some federally protected land, where wild horses roam around. I went and looked at a few houses on the market which had solar with batteries, as well as propane generators.

 

Honestly, I might very well have done it, if the right home had been available. I also explored buying a parcel of land there and building something, but my fear was that if something changed and I needed to sell the property, that I wouldn't be able to do so. Properties off the grid are not for everyone and often sit on the market for a long time.

 

Exactly. The barriers for doing this as a primary residence are much bigger than what I am considering. I am thinking more of a hobby, learning experience. Basically I can pick up land in Terligua, about 6-8 hours away, for a thousand or so or less per acre depending on a few factors. From there building the actual house gets to be very interesting. One of the other golf coaches I see a lot is using a couple 40' cargo containers to build his place. The space between is also living space. What helps is the area he is in is part of a HOA which has among other things a hotel resort with swimming pool, club house, and full showers. So while under construction there is the option to stay on the land camping while driving 30 minutes to an hour away and having some fun time with conveniences.

[StrangeSox]

Scotland wind turbines cover all its electricity needs for a day

[greg775]

So there was an earthquake in Oklahoma Saturday that was almost a 6.0. People felt the tremors all over the place, Kansas, Arizona, everywhere.

I was wondering if you think fracking is the problem. Oklahoma is getting hit with quakes all the time now. I am thinking we are messing with mother Nature too much. We're just asking for massive earthquakes by fracking.

Is there any solution to this? My fear is some bigger quakes are coming. This one was pretty close to being catastrophic. Another point or so on the scale and it would have been a problem.

[Balta1701]

So there was an earthquake in Oklahoma Saturday that was almost a 6.0. People felt the tremors all over the place, Kansas, Arizona, everywhere.

I was wondering if you think fracking is the problem. Oklahoma is getting hit with quakes all the time now. I am thinking we are messing with mother Nature too much. We're just asking for massive earthquakes by fracking.

Is there any solution to this? My fear is some bigger quakes are coming. This one was pretty close to being catastrophic. Another point or so on the scale and it would have been a problem.

This is not "fracking" per se, it is however linked. The Oklahoma quake surge is driven by pumping oil and gas wastewater into deep, basement-adjacent geologic units and in the process reactivating faults.

 

This has been going on for years. The 2011 Oklahoma quake was estimated to have caused over $100 million in damage.

 

The only link to modern fracking though is that the more oil and gas exploration there is, the more wastewater is produced. OK is now slowly trying to shut off another set of pumps after the quake last weekend, but the basic reality is that if they want to keep producing oil and gas they're just going to have to live with these for a while. They can and will take steps to limit them, but they can't turn off the disposal wells entirely and there's been so much pumping over decades there that the quakes are just jumping from well to well.

[StrangeSox]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/..._Facebook-Share

[iamshack]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/..._Facebook-Share

I'll be really interested to see if he is serious about "ending the war against coal on day one."

 

Removing a lot of the regulations might make it competitive again with other sources, fossil or otherwise.