The environment thread

[Balta1701]

One other fun thing that I realized this morning...

 

2 weeks or so ago, the Republicans finalized their decision on where to hold their 2012 coronation of the former half term governor. Their final choices?

 

The 2 losing cities were in:

 

A state filled with Mormons

A state that would arrest and deport all the Hispanic delegates

 

And the winning choice was:

 

Telling people to drill baby drill and saying clean energy can never work...a short drive from the city that in 2011 will be changing it's name from "Clearwater" to "brown oil slick filled water".

 

[southsider2k5]

This has not been handled well by the administration. I see a lot of theories flying around as to why. One is about campaign contributions - this seems thin, given that the main reason he got so many from BP is because they count each employee's individual contribution as somehow being done for the company (which makes no sense). Another is that he WANTS this to go badly, so that he can push the clean energy agenda harder. Interesting theory, but that would mean he'd be gambling away political capital at a time where he needs every cent of that - so I kind of doubt it.

 

I'd suggest instead there are two, simpler reasons. One, unlike Katrina, no human is dying as a result (after the explosion) - this not only means people are less quick to respond, but it also means that agencies like FEMA simply aren't prepared or trained for this type of event. Two, I think that this is ObamaCo being administratively immature. They are faced with a situation they don't know how to handle, and that the agencies aren't used to handling, so they are stumbling. Much the same as what we saw from BushCo on Katrina, this lack of administrative abilities is hurting the response. Katria was worse in that people were dying, and BushCo was a little more crass in its treatment... but otherwise, the situations are eerily similar in terms of what is making them fail.

 

This would be my conspiracy because it fits with the actions of this administration up to this point in time. They have made policy by finding ways to demonize the opposite side in things like tax policy, health care, banking etc. It seems like a logical step here. It might backfire in hindsight, but with the victories they have had in functioning this way, you almost have to suspect this response.

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't know if I'd exactly say Campaign Contributions would be my expected reasoning. I'd say it's more a matter of philosophy. Regardless of what Kap says, this is a very "Centrist" administration...at least in the current spectrum definition, where being as corporatist as possible is defined as the center. They're not jumping on BP because they don't want to jump on BP, because their instinct is to be trusting and friendly towards big business. They worked to protect wall street for their whole first year, they used the same lies as Bush in trying to sell more offshore drilling, and they trusted that BP wasn't openly lying to them when they said "it's a small leak" for the first week or two until satellite measurements became available

I think your tendency to apply your own fears about corporate protection isn't reality for this administration. They didn't offer offshore drilling because they liked BP - it was a political tactic, a way to bring more centrists to the table (as you point out, this is a centrist administration).

 

[Balta1701]

I think your tendency to apply your own fears about corporate protection isn't reality for this administration. They didn't offer offshore drilling because they liked BP - it was a political tactic, a way to bring more centrists to the table (as you point out, this is a centrist administration).

If that were true, then they are incredibly bad negotiators. They offered it up without any pledge of getting anything back in return, and then went out and tried to sell hard on the other side's position. By blatantly lying.

[NorthSideSox72]

If that were true, then they are incredibly bad negotiators. They offered it up without any pledge of getting anything back in return, and then went out and tried to sell hard on the other side's position. By blatantly lying.

On what planet? They basically said "look, we're doing an energy bill that will include a lot of green/clean energy stuff, which we know you guys hate. So in order to make it more politically palatable for some of the centrists, we'll throw in some nuke plants and some offshore drilling allowances". That was the opening salvo. They are getting back in return is the ability to overcome the Senate filibuster, so they can get 75% of what they want.

 

[Balta1701]

They are getting back in return is the ability to overcome the Senate filibuster, so they can get 75% of what they want.

Really?

 

So why did Lindsey Graham pull his support for that bill and stop negotiating after Obama announced he'd support drilling?

[NorthSideSox72]

Really?

 

So why did Lindsey Graham pull his support for that bill and stop negotiating after Obama announced he'd support drilling?

MIght be interesting if that actually happened. He pulled his supoort when Immigration reform was bandied about as being before energy. Its just posturing anyway.

 

Also, you have to realize that part of negotiation is knowing that you are willing to leave the table. Obama is offering a branch, but is willing to walk away from that if necessary. He's going to try it first though. Seriously, look at this latest veto power thing, look at what else he has done - this is part of his approach to these things. Make an approach to compromise first, and then if people reject it, they can hang themselves on that rejection.

 

[Balta1701]

MIght be interesting if that actually happened. He pulled his supoort when Immigration reform was bandied about as being before energy. Its just posturing anyway.

 

Also, you have to realize that part of negotiation is knowing that you are willing to leave the table. Obama is offering a branch, but is willing to walk away from that if necessary. He's going to try it first though. Seriously, look at this latest veto power thing, look at what else he has done - this is part of his approach to these things. Make an approach to compromise first, and then if people reject it, they can hang themselves on that rejection.

2 simple questions in reply:

 

Do you think the American Power act will pass the Senate?

 

Do you think it will have more than 1 Republican vote if it does?

[NorthSideSox72]

2 simple questions in reply:

 

Do you think the American Power act will pass the Senate?

 

Do you think it will have more than 1 Republican vote if it does?

1. In its exact current form, no. In some form, yes.

 

2. Probably yes.

 

[Balta1701]

1. In its exact current form, no. In some form, yes.

 

2. Probably yes.

Ok, then let me elaborate a bit on 1...

 

Do you think a serious clean energy bill, built on the hulk of the APA, will pass? Or will all of the clean energy componets be stripped out, giving us yet another "drilling" bill like the 3-4 of them that the Bush administration passed (each of which solved our energy problems completely).

[NorthSideSox72]

Ok, then let me elaborate a bit on 1...

 

Do you think a serious clean energy bill, built on the hulk of the APA, will pass? Or will all of the clean energy componets be stripped out, giving us yet another "drilling" bill like the 3-4 of them that the Bush administration passed (each of which solved our energy problems completely).

It won't be either - it won't be the joke that the Bush efforts were, but it won't be as good as I'd like either.

 

[HuskyCaucasian]

Wind farm announced for Lake Erie, could produce 1,000 megawatts by 2020

Wind farms have started popping up around the states -- including one off Rehoboth Beach -- and if the Lake Erie Energy Development Corp has its way, twenty megawatts of power will be generated off the coast of Ohio beginning in late 2012. The direct drive wind turbines, each generating four megawatts of power, will be supplied and maintained by General Electric, who designed them especially for off-shore use. Subsequent projects are also in the works by the dynamic duo, with the eventual goal of 1,000 megawatts by 2020 -- by which time the Insane Clown Posse will be eligible for the Rock'N'Roll Hall of Fame and the United States will have its first Juggalo President.

[Balta1701]

It took somewhere between months and years for the 9/11 responders to really get hit with the effects of the stuff they were breathing.

More and more stories about sick fishermen are beginning to surface after the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

 

The fishermen are working out in the Gulf -- many of them all day, every day -- to clean up the spill. They said they blame their ailments on the chemicals that BP is using.

 

One fisherman said he felt like he was going to die over the weekend.

 

"I've been coughing up stuff," Gary Burris said. "Your lungs fill up."

 

Burris, a longtime fisherman who has worked across the Gulf Coast, said he woke up Sunday night feeling drugged and disoriented.

 

"It was like sniffing gasoline or something, and my ears are still popping," Burris said. "I'm coughing up stuff. I feel real weak, tingling feelings."

 

Marine toxicologist Riki Ott said the chemicals used by BP can wreak havoc on a person's body and even lead to death.

 

"The volatile, organic carbons, they act like a narcotic on the brain," Ott said. "At high concentrations, what we learned in Exxon Valdez from carcasses of harbor seals and sea otters, it actually fried the brain, (and there were) brain lesions."

[Balta1701]

Just to stress again...this is exactly how the drilling companies want the system to work. Especially when the taxpayer has agreed to take on the price of any accidents, like they did after Exxon.

Federal regulators responsible for oversight of drilling in the Gulf of Mexico allowed industry officials several years ago to fill in their own inspection reports in pencil — and then turned them over to the regulators, who traced over them in pen before submitting the reports to the agency, according to an inspector general’s report to be released this week.

 

The report, which describes inappropriate behavior by the staff at the Minerals Management Service from 2005 to 2007, also found that inspectors had accepted meals, tickets to sporting events and gifts from at least one oil company while they were overseeing the industry.

 

Although there is no evidence that those events played a role in the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, the report offers further evidence of what many critics of the Minerals Management Service have described as a culture of lax oversight and cozy ties to industry.

 

The report includes other examples of troubling behavior discovered by investigators.

 

In mid-2008, a minerals agency employee conducted four inspections on drilling platforms when he was also negotiating a job with the drilling company, a cover letter to the report said.

 

And an inspector from the Lake Charles office admitted to investigators that he had used crystal methamphetamine, an illegal drug. Investigators said they believe the inspector may have been under the influence of the drug during an inspection.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Just to stress again...this is exactly how the drilling companies want the system to work. Especially when the taxpayer has agreed to take on the price of any accidents, like they did after Exxon.

 

Man, I can't wait until there's government oversight into the national healthcare sys...oh wait...

Edited May 25, 2010 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Man, I can't wait until there's government oversight into the national healthcare sys...oh wait...

Because keeping it private has worked just as well as letting BP manage its own drilling.

[southsider2k5]

Because keeping it private has worked just as well as letting BP manage its own drilling.

 

I love the part where the federal government is perfectly willing to sit this one out. Seriously, why do we have oversight and agencies like the EPA and FEMA anymore? It's a complete waste of money.

[Balta1701]

I love the part where the federal government is perfectly willing to sit this one out. Seriously, why do we have oversight and agencies like the EPA and FEMA anymore? It's a complete waste of money.

Oh, so NOW you have a problem with the Federal government not responding to a disaster. I thought that New Orleans BP was supposed to be able to handle it by itself.

[southsider2k5]

Oh, so NOW you have a problem with the Federal government not responding to a disaster. I thought that New Orleans BP was supposed to be able to handle it by itself.

 

If we are paying billions of dollars for something, yes, unlike the Democrats apparently, I expect something for it.

[southsider2k5]

If we are paying billions of dollars for something, yes, unlike the Democrats apparently, I expect something for it.

 

All thought I have to laugh at the comparison between NOLA and this. Katrina was a natural disaster in which the federal government told the people to hold on for three days before they could respond, and then still pretty well blew the response. This was a man-made disaster, which the government has been complicit in from the very first steps, all of the way to having all kinds of time to prepare a response, with the only response being for BP to take care of the problem, with the federal government knowing exactly what was happening and what was going to happen. Yet one defines a Presidency, and one gets the governments role in all of this pretty much ignored by the media in general.

[StrangeSox]

All thought I have to laugh at the comparison between NOLA and this. Katrina was a natural disaster in which the federal government told the people to hold on for three days before they could respond, and then still pretty well blew the response. This was a man-made disaster, which the government has been complicit in from the very first steps, all of the way to having all kinds of time to prepare a response, with the only response being for BP to take care of the problem, with the federal government knowing exactly what was happening and what was going to happen. Yet one defines a Presidency, and one gets the governments role in all of this pretty much ignored by the media in general.

 

Well, sure, because ultimately, BP (and any contractors) are responsible for this. There's no one else to blame for Katrina.

[Balta1701]

Well, sure, because ultimately, BP (and any contractors) are responsible for this. There's no one else to blame for Katrina.

Frankly though, leaving BP in charge and responsible reminds me of the exact mistake 2k5 was saying wasn't a problem in 2005...to little centralized control.

 

When you have a multi-state disaster like this, almost any organization you name other than the federal government is going to wind up doing a crappy job of organizing the response, because no one else can marshal all of the available resources.

 

In 2005, FEMA tried to leave things to local control, and you wound up with no law enforcement agency knowing what the other was doing, you wound up with people on bridges around NOLA shooting people trying to escape, you wound up with no coordination of evacuations or even of getting supplies in. It was "state's rights" in a disaster scenario; every local organization was overwhelmed. That's exactly the point that you need a national organization...someone that can take a call from a local sheriff who has 50 people trapped on rooftops and then send that information to the U.S. military who happens to have landing craft in that area, and then tell the military to take them to the emergency hospital being established somewhere 50 miles away. (Of course, the very notion that national control in 2005 might have been a benefit was challenged here quite vehemently when I argued it then).

 

In this one, you could have a central organization coordinating boats to calculate the magnitude of the spill, the directionality of it, monitoring where the currents are going, making sure that boats you take control of have appropriate safety equipment (btw, I can all but guarantee you that the taxpayers will wind up covering the fishermen's health care costs in some way), making sure the fishermen you take control of have access to some sort of payment so their families can eat, making sure you have a coherent plan for control boom deployment (it's been incredibly haphazard, especially in the areas where oil is now making landfall), perhaps even coming up with radical plans for removal like burning effected marshlands, making sure that the chemical dispersants used were the most effective ones possible, saying "let's do all we can to plug this thing and we'll take the liability if it fails", etc.

[Balta1701]

GMA and Philippe Cousteau Jr. took a dive into the spill 25 miles from the coast or so, a long ways from the main site, and they got some impressive footage of what those underwater dispersed plumes actually look like, and where those other 10 or so Exxon's that you can't see at the surface are hiding.

[kapkomet]

50, no 100, no, 1,000 EXXON's! No, wait, this just in... 10,000! OMG!

 

[NorthSideSox72]

50, no 100, no, 1,000 EXXON's! No, wait, this just in... 10,000! OMG!

And because of BP's attitude on this and other enviromental f***-ups being similar to yours, the feds are now considering barring BP from at least all future new contracts for drilling, and possibly a complete barring from all gov't contracts at all, which would be devastating to the company.