The environment thread

[IamtheHBOMB]

 

NCAR simulations.

 

f***. How much worse can this get?

[lostfan]

What would Reagan do about climate change?

The idolatry of Reagan by today's conservatives is pretty ironic because some of the things he did when he was actually president because they were practical things to do (raising taxes, pulling Marines out of Beirut after the barracks bombing, paying lip service to evangelicals but otherwise ignoring them) would make him an apostate Republican (or at best a RINO) today. But he has this mythical status now so facts don't carry much currency.

[StrangeSox]

BP's dismal safety record:

 

BP's safety violations far outstrip its fellow oil companies. According to the Center for Public Integrity, in the last three years, BP refineries in Ohio and Texas have accounted for 97 percent of the "egregious, willful" violations handed out by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

 

760 OSHA fines for BP versus 1 for Exxon. If I hear any BP asshole say "safety is our number one priority", I'm going to be completely unsurprised.

[lostfan]

Can someone give me a quick crash course in a geothermal energy system? More specifically, how much they cost to install for a commercial building about 4000-5000 square feet (sports bar, and I'm guessing $15k?), how reliable they are, how much they save in heating costs, whether it's going to be cost-effective for me, etc. I think if I'm having to rehab a building and install a new heating system it would probably be worth it to pay the extra up-front costs, assuming the bank finances me.

 

I really want to use a lot of green energy - LED lighting, solar water heater, etc. to the extent that it's financially possible for me to do so.

Edited June 4, 2010 by lostfan

[StrangeSox]

Can someone give me a quick crash course in a geothermal energy system? More specifically, how much they cost to install for a commercial building about 4000-5000 square feet (sports bar, and I'm guessing $15k?), how reliable they are, how much they save in heating costs, whether it's going to be cost-effective for me, etc. I think if I'm having to rehab a building and install a new heating system it would probably be worth it to pay the extra up-front costs, assuming the bank finances me.

 

I really want to use a lot of green energy - LED lighting, solar water heater, etc. to the extent that it's financially possible for me to do so.

 

 

This seems to be inline with what I've read over the years:

 

Cost

 

As a rule of thumb, a geothermal heat pump system costs about $2,500 per ton of capacity. The typically sized home would use a three-ton unit costing roughly $7,500. That initial cost is nearly twice the price of a regular heat pump system that would probably cost about $4,000, with air conditioning.

 

You will have to, however, add the cost of drilling to this total amount. The final cost will depend on whether your system will drill vertically deep underground or will put the loops in a horizontal fashion a shorter distance below ground. The cost of drilling can run anywhere from $10,000 to $30,000, or more depending on the terrain and other local factors.

 

Added to an already built home an replacing an existing HVAC unit, an efficient geothermal system saves enough on utility bills that the investment can be recouped in five to ten years.

 

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/home/h...geothermal.html

[lostfan]

Yeah, I was reading that site just now, that's where I got the $15k guess from. From what I understand you need water underground, that shouldn't be a problem in Chicago. I'm interested in how it works, and I'm kind of surprised that people don't talk more about this.

 

I'm also seeing that there is a federal tax credit worth 10% of the installation cost... gotta look at IL too

Edited June 4, 2010 by lostfan

[StrangeSox]

The idea is that, as you go down in the earth, the temperature reaches a pretty stable 60* F everywhere (I'm sure Balta can comment more on that). You're using the earth as a big heat exchanger to get all the water in your pump system to 60*. In the winter, that water is going to be significantly warmer than the outside air and will help heat. In the summer, just the opposite.

 

I don't think you need underground water (like a well or something) for typical installations.

[lostfan]

Well all of it would be several feet underground so depending on where you are, you might hit water anyway.

[StrangeSox]

Possibly. That's where the biggest costs are: drilling.

 

You've either got to drill down vertically pretty far or you've got to do horizontal drilling. Neither are very cheap. I would guess that installing a system for new construction would be cheaper since you're doing a lot of excavating and ground work anyway.

[BigSqwert]

Gut wrenching photos on Huffpo's front page.

[iamshack]

Yeah, I was reading that site just now, that's where I got the $15k guess from. From what I understand you need water underground, that shouldn't be a problem in Chicago. I'm interested in how it works, and I'm kind of surprised that people don't talk more about this.

 

I'm also seeing that there is a federal tax credit worth 10% of the installation cost... gotta look at IL too

Keith, this is gaining more and more steam in the midwest in areas of Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc. Basically, it was not economically feasible unless you were separated from natural gas service and had to rely on propane for heat. But with the costs of energy rising, it is becoming more and more a viable alternative, especially in large commercial/government/municipal buildings such as schools, hospitals, military bases, etc.

 

Basically, there are two types of systems, a horizontal loop system and a vertical loops system. Not sure of the feasibility in a metropolitan or urban setting, but my guess is a vertical loop system would be necessary unless your property were to lie on a very large lot.

 

The key will be absorbing the installation cost. You are correct in that there are tax credits available, however I am not certain off the top of my head what expired and what did not recently. However, if you can absorb the installation cost, the return on investment is very fast - probably within 3-5 years depending on the size and efficiency of your building.

 

My stepdad and I have completed a lot of research into this and so I can get you information should you so desire. Sent you a PM.

[lostfan]

Keith, this is gaining more and more steam in the midwest in areas of Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc. Basically, it was not economically feasible unless you were separated from natural gas service and had to rely on propane for heat. But with the costs of energy rising, it is becoming more and more a viable alternative, especially in large commercial/government/municipal buildings such as schools, hospitals, military bases, etc.

 

Basically, there are two types of systems, a horizontal loop system and a vertical loops system. Not sure of the feasibility in a metropolitan or urban setting, but my guess is a vertical loop system would be necessary unless your property were to lie on a very large lot.

 

The key will be absorbing the installation cost. You are correct in that there are tax credits available, however I am not certain off the top of my head what expired and what did not recently. However, if you can absorb the installation cost, the return on investment is very fast - probably within 3-5 years depending on the size and efficiency of your building.

 

My stepdad and I have completed a lot of research into this and so I can get you information should you so desire. Sent you a PM.

This would be for a restaurant-sized building, about 4500 square feet, probably no more than 6000 square feet. It seems like the larger the building, the better. I'm looking at solar water heaters too, the return on investment on those seems to be very fast, those two things together would probably drop the costs of heating and hot water by about half, maybe even more, add in some LED lighting to trim electricity costs and it's even more than that.

[Balta1701]

Keith, this is gaining more and more steam in the midwest in areas of Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc. Basically, it was not economically feasible unless you were separated from natural gas service and had to rely on propane for heat. But with the costs of energy rising, it is becoming more and more a viable alternative, especially in large commercial/government/municipal buildings such as schools, hospitals, military bases, etc.

If we're talking about price comparisons with natural gas, I should note from the geologist side that there is good reason to think natural gas prices will actually stabilize over the next decade compared to the wild swings in the last decade due to production from "unconventional" natural gas well sites.

[iamshack]

If we're talking about price comparisons with natural gas, I should note from the geologist side that there is good reason to think natural gas prices will actually stabilize over the next decade compared to the wild swings in the last decade due to production from "unconventional" natural gas well sites.

It's energy costs in general. Yes, it's natural gas, but it's also electricity costs, which are a function of coal prices, natuaral gas prices, renewable energy investments made by the power company, etc.

 

As I said, primarily, the huge savings in the past were realized by propane users, but a building with a tight, efficient envelope can realize a 50% reduction in your utility bill most of the time.

[Steve9347]

Gut wrenching photos on Huffpo's front page.

Those were horrible.

[BigSqwert]

Those were horrible.

For those of you that missed the photos they're here.

[Balta1701]

Bye bye, Pensacola.

[BigSqwert]

see post 2276

[HuskyCaucasian]

see post 2276

OOPS! Deleted my comment

[Balta1701]

OOPS! Deleted my comment

Balta1701: beating you to posting the thing you wanted to post since 2005.©

[Balta1701]

Depending on what the leak volume actually is, right now the new top hat is collecting something on the order of 5-10% of it.

[StrangeSox]

I want to know how BP is saying it might be able to capture up to 90% if they won't do or won't allow any actual measurements.

 

Also, why does BP get to control media access to public beaches and waters?

[Balta1701]

Also, why does BP get to control media access to public beaches and waters?

Everything their oil touches, they own.

[southsider2k5]

I want to know how BP is saying it might be able to capture up to 90% if they won't do or won't allow any actual measurements.

 

Also, why does BP get to control media access to public beaches and waters?

 

The EPA knows it can't do any better, so it is cowering in a corner somewhere.

[StrangeSox]

That doesn't explain why BP gets to direct local police departments and the coast guard to not let journalists in.

 

I like LA's idea of still charging them royalties on every barrel spilled.