WHITESOXRANDY Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 The grading thread got me to thinking, since I give KW an "F" for this season, how many of us would be clamoring for his firing if the Sox hadn't won the WS in 2005 ? I know that's why I give him a pass. I like KW and think he's a pretty good GM but certainly not in the top ten - maybe in the top half. I think that he's still learning on the job and I'm surprised at some of the lessons he hadn't learned before this season. So, would you want him fired if the Sox had missed the playoffs in 2005 ? What if they lost in the playoffs that year ? What if they lost in the WS ? Do you still want him replaced ? Do you think that he's one of the best GM's ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 If the Sox missed the playoffs in 05 of course everyone would be calling for his head. That would have been an epic collapse However, this is all hypothetical since they didnt, so it doesnt really matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 F for this year F for last year F for poor farm system He does not seem to be getting better at his job. Time for a change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 They didn't. KW put together one of the best teams ever that year so it kind of changes things, don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 That's the dumbest question ever. If the twin towers hadn't been hit would we be in war? COME ON. we won the world series in 2005, I can't even begin to answer this stupid question, bc hypothetical or not, its just dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 They won the WS. If they made the playoffs but didn't win, KW would be on a very hot seat right now. Of course the whole team would look very different as revenues most likely wouldn't have been the same. Paulie would probably be with the Angels, and the White Sox would probably have been in full rebuilding mode after last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Too bad we can't fire posters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Maybe it's not the most properly formed question, but I don't see all the hostility. It took 88 years, but the Sox finally won a World Series. I don't know about the rest of you, but I wanted it to be the beginning. The Sox were on the cusp of being the dominant team in baseball for many years. Then they hit a little bump in the road called the Black Sox scandal. I've always wanted them to fullfill a destiny that seemed their's. Right now the team sucks big time, and the future is to be kind uncertain. KW and Ozzie may be demigods to some of you, but not me. Both are flawed in a personal and baseball sense. I don't want the Sox, two years after the greatest thrill I as one of their fans had, to be on the cusp of irrelevance. That is where they're at right now. If you think I'm a dumbass or exaggerating, just watch if the Cubs go on some kind of run in the upcoming playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 (edited) I think Kenny Williams should have been graded before the season, not after (unless you count midseason trades). He did get rid of Garcia, which is what many wanted, he got what should have been a better backup catcher which we needed. The problems he created were that he stuck with podsednik which is kind of like the cubs sticking with wood and prior, plus Williams went with a young bullpen instead of a proven vet pen. He also resigned Javy which many of us thought was stupid, but it turned out to be good for this year. I feel like before the season started that's how I felt, he address some big problems, but had some holes and took some risks that may not pay off, so I definitly wouldn't have given him an F, probably a C. You can't say that he should have expected Konerko to be hitting .258, Dye to have an average in the .250s, Ozuna to wind up breaking, and for everyone in Cintrons family to wind up dying. He could have suspected injuries from Crede and Thome, but with Crede he knew Fields was ready and Thome's too good to get rid of even in case he does get hurt. Did you guys give Kenny an F before the season started? I didn't. I didn't give him an A either, but I don't think it appeared as if he ruined the team before it all even started. Edited September 28, 2007 by Markbilliards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 QUOTE(Markbilliards @ Sep 28, 2007 -> 12:41 PM) I think Kenny Williams should have been graded before the season, not after (unless you count midseason trades). He did get rid of Garcia, which is what many wanted, he got what should have been a better backup catcher which we needed. The problems he created were that he stuck with podsednik which is kind of like the cubs sticking with wood and prior, plus Williams went with a young bullpen instead of a proven vet pen. He also resigned Javy which many of us thought was stupid, but it turned out to be good for this year. I feel like before the season started that's how I felt, he address some big problems, but had some holes and took some risks that may not pay off, so I definitly wouldn't have given him an F, probably a C. You can't say that he should have expected Konerko to be hitting .258, Dye to have an average in the .250s, Ozuna to wind up breaking, and for everyone in Cintrons family to wind up dying. He could have suspected injuries from Crede and Thome, but with Crede he knew Fields was ready and Thome's too good to get rid of even in case he does get hurt. Did you guys give Kenny an F before the season started? I didn't. I didn't give him an A either, but I don't think it appeared as if he ruined the team before it all even started. Good call on the Toby Hall acquisition. Many on here were ecstatic when Hall was signed...thinking he'd be a great option to also DH at times...and I remember a ton of "the sky is falling" posts when he got hurt in ST. Now he's a friggin' bum and shouldn't even be wearing a jockstrap. Hardly KW's fault. Plus...how many at the beginning of the year thought this was one of the best bullpens in the game? When Aardsma came in and struck out the side with the bases loaded...you got the feeling this team was going somewhere....then...pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I got a question If the Sox made the playoffs in both 2003 and 2006, rather than choking, would Ken Williams be considered one of the best GMs in the game? I can play that game too dude; it's a scenario which is impossible to achieve at this point, so why bother asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Sep 28, 2007 -> 06:53 AM) F for this year F for last year F for poor farm system He does not seem to be getting better at his job. Time for a change I can't see how Kenny deserved an F for last year as the team on paper was superior to the one that won the world series in 05. No one would have been able to predict just how severely the rotation would collapse in 2006 (along with the failures of Politte and Cotts). And a GM's job is to put together a great team on paper while the managers job is to get that team to reach its success (and in some instances the team just completely fails in which case I don't see it worthy blaming either guy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Sep 28, 2007 -> 01:47 PM) The grading thread got me to thinking, since I give KW an "F" for this season, how many of us would be clamoring for his firing if the Sox hadn't won the WS in 2005 ? I know that's why I give him a pass. I like KW and think he's a pretty good GM but certainly not in the top ten - maybe in the top half. I think that he's still learning on the job and I'm surprised at some of the lessons he hadn't learned before this season. So, would you want him fired if the Sox had missed the playoffs in 2005 ? What if they lost in the playoffs that year ? What if they lost in the WS ? Do you still want him replaced ? Do you think that he's one of the best GM's ? Wonder if he has won 5 WS in a row, would you still feel the same? Hypotheticals are worthless, reality is what counts. He did a WS, and for that, he deserves the good that comes with it, just like he deserves the bad for this season. Either way, he's aggressive, and I like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 QUOTE(Markbilliards @ Sep 28, 2007 -> 12:41 PM) I think Kenny Williams should have been graded before the season, not after (unless you count midseason trades). He did get rid of Garcia, which is what many wanted, he got what should have been a better backup catcher which we needed. The problems he created were that he stuck with podsednik which is kind of like the cubs sticking with wood and prior, plus Williams went with a young bullpen instead of a proven vet pen. He also resigned Javy which many of us thought was stupid, but it turned out to be good for this year. I feel like before the season started that's how I felt, he address some big problems, but had some holes and took some risks that may not pay off, so I definitly wouldn't have given him an F, probably a C. You can't say that he should have expected Konerko to be hitting .258, Dye to have an average in the .250s, Ozuna to wind up breaking, and for everyone in Cintrons family to wind up dying. He could have suspected injuries from Crede and Thome, but with Crede he knew Fields was ready and Thome's too good to get rid of even in case he does get hurt. Did you guys give Kenny an F before the season started? I didn't. I didn't give him an A either, but I don't think it appeared as if he ruined the team before it all even started. I feel as if I've been transported to WSI where people just create new and inventive ways of deflecting blame off Williams. Compare your belief to any activity in life -- are grades assessed based on final results, or the effort behind it? If I had all the right materials for an exam, yet still failed, should I be graded based on the effort? Of course not. The whole point here is, he may have done what was necessary before the season (dealing Garcia, acquiring arms, acquiring Hall) but it didn't work it. That's just reality. His moves ultimately failed, and nothing else is important. Admit it -- he deserves a D at the hightest. I hope you're around this offseason. Williams has quite the work to do to improve this ballclub and its minor league system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 It's strange that people want to avoid hindsight bias when evaluating Kenny's performance this season but not his performance during the championship season. In reality, he probably gets a lot more credit that he deserves for the '05 season and a bit more criticism than he deserves for this season. Personally, when I say I'm not a fan of his, I'm looking at a lot more than just those two seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 I'll play the hypothetical game. Yes I'd probably be calling for his head if we hadn't reached the Series at least in 05. Because like Yossarian said, the team appears on the verge of insignificance. However, KW DID lead the team to a world championship. To me, firing him or Oz this season would have been cruel and inhuman. I mean Chicago does not win baseball championships (if the Cubs win it all this year they can thank us for paving the way; the Cub routs of the Sox this year turned that team around twice). So yes if the Sox had not made the WS in 05 I'd probably be calling for his head and likely Oz's as well. But he did win it all and that may even get him one more year in my eyes to show he has a plan for a return to prominence. Winning it all should mean something. KW and Oz can't go from world champs to guys without a job in 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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