So who has played their last game in a Sox uni?

[GreatScott82]

Oxymoron.

 

A bullpen can blow up in your face no matter if you go about it like the Sox did (stockpiling hard-throwing young guys) or like the Orioles did (trying to sign every good veteran reliever in fa). Only the Sox aren't paying $10+ mil a year for their bad luck.

I agree to a certain extent. However, you evaluate your talent based on performance from the year before as well. You can't just hope your bullpen turns it around. At the end of 2004 Cotts and Pollitte started to get a lot of guys out, that carried over to 2005. Based on this year the only guy who got alot of guys out was Jenks. Thorton started off good but started to walk alot of hitters, same as MacDougal and Bukvich and Aardsma and Massett and Sisco etc... You have to evaluate your talent from the previous year and go out and get guys to fill the remaining holes. I believe there is still two holes in the bullpen.

[klaus kinski]

Enough to put him in the leadoff spot for next season?

 

I just don't think Owens is ready or that, and question if he ever will. I have said it before, and probably will say it again, but Owens can be a very nice piece to a playoff contending team. At this point, he just can't be relied on for more than 200-300 AB's in a season. Having Owens as a 4th OF can be an asset. Having Owens as your leadoff hitter(giving him the most AB's on the team) is going to hurt your offense.

 

I agree-if we start with him at lead off & in CF-it can be termed a Rebuilding Year. This team's "Core" is too old for that

 

[witesoxfan]

I agree to a certain extent. However, you evaluate your talent based on performance from the year before as well. You can't just hope your bullpen turns it around. At the end of 2004 Cotts and Pollitte started to get a lot of guys out, that carried over to 2005. Based on this year the only guy who got alot of guys out was Jenks. Thorton started off good but started to walk alot of hitters, same as MacDougal and Bukvich and Aardsma and Massett and Sisco etc... You have to evaluate your talent from the previous year and go out and get guys to fill the remaining holes. I believe there is still two holes in the bullpen.

 

There are holes, no doubt, but there are potential suitable replacements within the minor league system. If anything, you fill one of those holes and then let Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, Masset, or some other name fill that hole in the pen.

[jackie hayes]

Question: so how exactly did San Diego do it? Don't they have a kickass bullpen? I remember reading earlier some interview with their pitching coach and his philosophy in maybe ESPN magazine or something.

Maybe their scouts have a great eye for relievers, but none of their star relievers were sure things when they were acquired. Linebrink was taken off waivers. Bell was acquired in a minor player/spare parts trade. Meredith was acquired along with Josh Bard when they had the Red Sox over a barrel (the second Mirabelli trade). Even Hoffman was acquired, way back when, in the middle of his rookie season.

 

I'm only defending the overall strategy of getting good, cheap, young players, as opposed to getting vets. Obviously the Sox didn't acquire the right young pitchers. (Though I still like Aardsma, long term.) But the solution isn't to acquire 'reliable vets'. Bell looked a lot more risky than Aardsma to start the season.

[jackie hayes]

I agree to a certain extent. However, you evaluate your talent based on performance from the year before as well. You can't just hope your bullpen turns it around. At the end of 2004 Cotts and Pollitte started to get a lot of guys out, that carried over to 2005. Based on this year the only guy who got alot of guys out was Jenks. Thorton started off good but started to walk alot of hitters, same as MacDougal and Bukvich and Aardsma and Massett and Sisco etc... You have to evaluate your talent from the previous year and go out and get guys to fill the remaining holes. I believe there is still two holes in the bullpen.

Oh, I'm sure there are holes; whether there are 1 or 2 or 5, I don't think anyone can be sure of now. I just think the #1 dumbest reaction to this season would be to sign the next Danys Baez. Stick with youth & cheap 'rebound' types, please.

[sircaffey]

Oxymoron.

 

A bullpen can blow up in your face no matter if you go about it like the Sox did (stockpiling hard-throwing young guys) or like the Orioles did (trying to sign every good veteran reliever in fa). Only the Sox aren't paying $10+ mil a year for their bad luck.

 

The Sox are not going to be giving out 3 yr, $16 million deals to any bullpen guys this offseason like BAL did with Baez. Many thought that was the worst contract of the offseason. It's really an out lier when it comes to middle relief contract. Other than Baez, the O's got tremendous seasons out of Bradford and Walker, guys who have had a career of success. Did they overpay for them? Probably, but seeing as how the bullpen was a disaster this year, I wouldn't mind KW overpaying for a reliever or two with consistent career success like those guys, whether it be through trade or free agency. There are relievers out there that put up consistent numbers year in and year out. Hopefully KW will be able to acquire one.

[sircaffey]

Oh, I'm sure there are holes; whether there are 1 or 2 or 5, I don't think anyone can be sure of now. I just think the #1 dumbest reaction to this season would be to sign the next Danys Baez. Stick with youth & cheap 'rebound' types, please.

 

That's all fine and dandy, but that philosophy is extremely dangerous. You head into the season with a bunch of "rebound" types and young talent conbined with Jenks and the chance of the season going south in a hurry is very present. No one's saying get rid of everyone but Jenks, but to head into a season with just Jenks as the only solid bet to turn in a good year would not be smart. Add one arm with an extended history of success, and fill the rest of the bullpen with guys like Thornton and MacDougal. The pen has the chance to be really good or it has the chance to be below average, but with 2 reliable arms, the probability of it going to s*** in a handbag like this year is far less.

Edited October 1, 2007 by sircaffey

[Balta1701]

That's all fine and dandy, but that philosophy is extremely dangerous. You head into the season with a bunch of "rebound" types and young talent conbined with Jenks and the chance of the season going south in a hurry is very present. No one's saying get rid of everyone but Jenks, but to head into a season with just Jenks as the only solid bet to turn in a good year would not be smart. Add one arm with an extended history of success, and fill the rest of the bullpen with guys like Thornton and MacDougal. The pen has the chance to be really good or it has the chance to be below average, but with 2 reliable arms, the probability of it going to s*** in a handbag like this year is far less.

But here's the problem; what's the other option? To go out and spend $5 million a year over 4 years on a Linebrink or something else likie that? Pretty much every one of the available bullpen guys not named "Mariano" is going to be a "rebound" bullpen type at the best, because there's really no one on the market who's had a great season and put up a solid, consistent career.

 

Any philosophy is going to be extremely dangerous. Every philosophy carries a high risk of failure. The job right now is to minimize that risk. It could still happen even if you make the correct decisions 100% of the time, because there may just not be solutions available.

[sircaffey]

But here's the problem; what's the other option? To go out and spend $5 million a year over 4 years on a Linebrink or something else likie that? Pretty much every one of the available bullpen guys not named "Mariano" is going to be a "rebound" bullpen type at the best, because there's really no one on the market who's had a great season and put up a solid, consistent career.

 

Any philosophy is going to be extremely dangerous. Every philosophy carries a high risk of failure. The job right now is to minimize that risk. It could still happen even if you make the correct decisions 100% of the time, because there may just not be solutions available.

 

We'll have to see how the market plays out. I'm not advocating giving a middle reliever a contract like Baez. If the free agent market is too pricey, explore the trade market. If you have to overpay there, then that's fine with me. But giving a contract like the ones given to Bradford, Walker, and Howry, contracts frowned upon by some, would be something I'd welcome with open arms with the current state of the pen. If this strategy is not feasible, then move to plan B, but I would hate for plan A to be fill the bullpen with a bunch of unknowns and Jenks.

Edited October 1, 2007 by sircaffey

[Dick Allen]

But here's the problem; what's the other option? To go out and spend $5 million a year over 4 years on a Linebrink or something else likie that? Pretty much every one of the available bullpen guys not named "Mariano" is going to be a "rebound" bullpen type at the best, because there's really no one on the market who's had a great season and put up a solid, consistent career.

 

Any philosophy is going to be extremely dangerous. Every philosophy carries a high risk of failure. The job right now is to minimize that risk. It could still happen even if you make the correct decisions 100% of the time, because there may just not be solutions available.

The best option is to develop them yourself, but obviously the Sox didn't have what they thought they had. Signing free agents can work out. Hermanson and Politte worked out for the Sox, even if it was for one season each. Gordon was great with the Sox for a season.

[Gregory Pratt]

Maybe their scouts have a great eye for relievers, but none of their star relievers were sure things when they were acquired. Linebrink was taken off waivers. Bell was acquired in a minor player/spare parts trade. Meredith was acquired along with Josh Bard when they had the Red Sox over a barrel (the second Mirabelli trade). Even Hoffman was acquired, way back when, in the middle of his rookie season.

 

I'm only defending the overall strategy of getting good, cheap, young players, as opposed to getting vets. Obviously the Sox didn't acquire the right young pitchers. (Though I still like Aardsma, long term.) But the solution isn't to acquire 'reliable vets'. Bell looked a lot more risky than Aardsma to start the season.

 

Towers always talks about how you should look for pitchers who throw strikes, first and foremost, when building a bullpen. I think I concur.

[witesoxfan]

The best option is to develop them yourself, but obviously the Sox didn't have what they thought they had. Signing free agents can work out. Hermanson and Politte worked out for the Sox, even if it was for one season each. Gordon was great with the Sox for a season.

 

Marte was very good too, and he was acquired in a Spring Training trade.

 

There's also Schoenweis, Koch (though that was more of a major move than minor), and this year's collective failure too. It just seems quite 50/50.

 

I'm also in agreement with jackie about Aardsma. Absolutely filthy in April, blew up in May, and was in the minors essentially the rest of the year and wasn't given a shot at taking a spot back in the bullpen in September. It would have been nice to atleast see if he could end the year on a good note with the MLB club, but hopefully he's somewhat "guilted" if you will into reproving himself next year.

[jackie hayes]

I'm not saying sign nobody, just...be careful. No big deals, try to stick with younger guys, nothing beyond 3 years, and that only with the best options. I wanted the Sox to offer Riske arbitration, mostly in the hope of getting picks, but thinking that he'd have a spot in the bullpen even if they got stuck with him.

 

It depends what the other choices are for that money. If you have to jettison Crede to sign two 30+ relievers, is that a good tradeoff? (The money will probably be close.) On the other side, suppose you can have 4 or 5 'risky' relievers for the price of 1 'reliable' vet (salary-wise, that's about right). I doubt the risk is much greater with the kids as a group (only one has to pan out), and you have the added upside risk that you may actually get a star on the cheap for many years. (Like the Sox did with Jenks.) Jmho.

[RockRaines]

Towers always talks about how you should look for pitchers who throw strikes, first and foremost, when building a bullpen. I think I concur.

It helps that alot of the strikes in his park arent floated over the outfield wall.

 

I still agree that they need to throw strikes, and I was hoping that KW paid a little more attention to that this year.

[29andPoplar]

Totally agree that in scouting relief pitchers, throwing strikes is at or near the top of the list. Most of the guys they acquired had control problems. MacDougal, Masset, and Aardsma really struggled. On the other hand they had good luck with Thornton who was notoriously wild when acquired. Even though he had a down year he is still a valuable piece.

 

When scouting these guys, they really need to find out how well they adapt to coaching, implementing changes, and what's their mindset. MacDougal can't seem to make the changes they want and further, it appears he's afraid to throw strikes, he is constantly wanting the hitter to get themselves out.

[striker]

Are there any other bad contracts out there besides Contreras's that we can swap? I know Burrell gets alot of hate in Philly and if they re-sign Rowand they will have a surplus of outfielders. Maybe Burrell for Contreras and we throw in $5 mil??

 

Would anyone here do a Garland for Frucal straight up? Both FAs after 2008.

[GreatScott82]

Are there any other bad contracts out there besides Contreras's that we can swap? I know Burrell gets alot of hate in Philly and if they re-sign Rowand they will have a surplus of outfielders. Maybe Burrell for Contreras and we throw in $5 mil??

 

Would anyone here do a Garland for Frucal straight up? Both FAs after 2008.

Unfortanately we are most likely stuck with Contreras and his contract. Maybe it will be a blessing in disguise, who knows? However, seeing the lack of quality relievers via free agency, im almost possitive KW will trade Garland for a solid reliever or 2. Now if we can aqcuire a decent reliever and Furcal for Garland im all for it!

[witesoxfan]

Are there any other bad contracts out there besides Contreras's that we can swap? I know Burrell gets alot of hate in Philly and if they re-sign Rowand they will have a surplus of outfielders. Maybe Burrell for Contreras and we throw in $5 mil??

 

Would anyone here do a Garland for Frucal straight up? Both FAs after 2008.

 

Furcal's making more, the Dodgers have a shortstop ready, and he had an absolutely terrible year last year.

 

I'm willing to trade Garland in a deal for Furcal, but if they don't include more, they can shove it.

[sircaffey]

I'm not saying sign nobody, just...be careful. No big deals, try to stick with younger guys, nothing beyond 3 years, and that only with the best options. I wanted the Sox to offer Riske arbitration, mostly in the hope of getting picks, but thinking that he'd have a spot in the bullpen even if they got stuck with him.

 

It depends what the other choices are for that money. If you have to jettison Crede to sign two 30+ relievers, is that a good tradeoff? (The money will probably be close.) On the other side, suppose you can have 4 or 5 'risky' relievers for the price of 1 'reliable' vet (salary-wise, that's about right). I doubt the risk is much greater with the kids as a group (only one has to pan out), and you have the added upside risk that you may actually get a star on the cheap for many years. (Like the Sox did with Jenks.) Jmho.

 

The problem also with going with a pen full of risky pitchers is that it's going to take time to figure out roles. It may cost us a few games early on to figure out who to pitch where. Personally, I don't think we have the best manager to "figure out" a bullpen. I think it much better to have the blueprint printed before the season with Oz at this point in his career.

[WilliamTell]

I think Erstad and Podsednik will be gone for sure. I'm hoping Uribe will be gone and I'm hoping Pablo Ozuna will be still around, this season really went downhill after Ozuna and Crede went down. I'm figuring much of the bullpen should be gone if this team is serious about contending again. I'd love to see the Sox pick up another starting pitcher whether it's a signing or a trade involving some sparable players on the team.

[BearSox]

Probably wishful thinking but hopefully....

 

Ryan Bukvich

Jose Contreras

Mike Myers

Toby Hall

Alex Cintron

Darin Erstad

Andy Gonzalez (wouldn't mind him in the minors to be honest)

Scott Podsednik

 

I'd go for Chone Figgins in the offseson to be the CF/leadoff hitter... not quite sure what the Angels would need however and I don't think we have enough to get him.

 

I'd also try and get Renteria from the Braves... could a package of something like Contreras + money (money thrown in for 09 as the contracts would cancel each other out next year), Brian Anderson, and a prospect get it done? Also, it looks extremely likely that Crede will be brought back next season.

 

Both of those trade ideas are probably unlikely, however they would extremely help this team...

 

1. Figgins, CF

2. Renteria, SS

3. Thome, DH

4. Konerko, 1B

5. Dye, RF

6. Pierzynski, C

7. Fields, LF

8. Crede, 3B

9. Richar, 2B

 

BENCH - Lucy/?, Owens, Terrero, Ozuna, ??? (I'd love to get Wilson Betemit for this final bench spot but again, wishful thinking by me.)

 

ROTATION - Buehrle, Vazquez, Garland, Danks, Floyd

 

BULLPEN - Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan, Whasserman, Free agent/prospect

[sircaffey]

Probably wishful thinking but hopefully....

 

Ryan Bukvich

Jose Contreras

Mike Myers

Toby Hall

Alex Cintron

Darin Erstad

Andy Gonzalez (wouldn't mind him in the minors to be honest)

Scott Podsednik

 

I'd go for Chone Figgins in the offseson to be the CF/leadoff hitter... not quite sure what the Angels would need however and I don't think we have enough to get him.

 

I'd also try and get Renteria from the Braves... could a package of something like Contreras + money (money thrown in for 09 as the contracts would cancel each other out next year), Brian Anderson, and a prospect get it done? Also, it looks extremely likely that Crede will be brought back next season.

 

Both of those trade ideas are probably unlikely, however they would extremely help this team...

 

1. Figgins, CF

2. Renteria, SS

3. Thome, DH

4. Konerko, 1B

5. Dye, RF

6. Pierzynski, C

7. Fields, LF

8. Crede, 3B

9. Richar, 2B

 

BENCH - Lucy/?, Owens, Terrero, Ozuna, ??? (I'd love to get Wilson Betemit for this final bench spot but again, wishful thinking by me.)

 

ROTATION - Buehrle, Vazquez, Garland, Danks, Floyd

 

BULLPEN - Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan, Whasserman, Free agent/prospect

 

I think a new rule should be made that you can not propose any trade involving Brian Anderson unless its for Neifi or Timo Perez. The guy has no trade value.

[Texsox]

But here's the problem; what's the other option? To go out and spend $5 million a year over 4 years on a Linebrink or something else likie that? Pretty much every one of the available bullpen guys not named "Mariano" is going to be a "rebound" bullpen type at the best, because there's really no one on the market who's had a great season and put up a solid, consistent career.

 

Any philosophy is going to be extremely dangerous. Every philosophy carries a high risk of failure. The job right now is to minimize that risk. It could still happen even if you make the correct decisions 100% of the time, because there may just not be solutions available.

 

 

I think Erstad and Podsednik will be gone for sure. I'm hoping Uribe will be gone and I'm hoping Pablo Ozuna will be still around, this season really went downhill after Ozuna and Crede went down. I'm figuring much of the bullpen should be gone if this team is serious about contending again. I'd love to see the Sox pick up another starting pitcher whether it's a signing or a trade involving some sparable players on the team.

 

[WilliamTell]

Probably wishful thinking but hopefully....

 

Ryan Bukvich

Jose Contreras

Mike Myers

Toby Hall

Alex Cintron

Darin Erstad

Andy Gonzalez (wouldn't mind him in the minors to be honest)

Scott Podsednik

 

I'd go for Chone Figgins in the offseson to be the CF/leadoff hitter... not quite sure what the Angels would need however and I don't think we have enough to get him.

 

I'd also try and get Renteria from the Braves... could a package of something like Contreras + money (money thrown in for 09 as the contracts would cancel each other out next year), Brian Anderson, and a prospect get it done? Also, it looks extremely likely that Crede will be brought back next season.

 

Both of those trade ideas are probably unlikely, however they would extremely help this team...

 

1. Figgins, CF

2. Renteria, SS

3. Thome, DH

4. Konerko, 1B

5. Dye, RF

6. Pierzynski, C

7. Fields, LF

8. Crede, 3B

9. Richar, 2B

 

BENCH - Lucy/?, Owens, Terrero, Ozuna, ??? (I'd love to get Wilson Betemit for this final bench spot but again, wishful thinking by me.)

 

ROTATION - Buehrle, Vazquez, Garland, Danks, Floyd

 

BULLPEN - Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan, Whasserman, Free agent/prospect

 

I'd love to see Figgins and Renteria here.

[BearSox]

I think a new rule should be made that you can not propose any trade involving Brian Anderson unless its for Neifi or Timo Perez. The guy has no trade value.

my reasoning behind this is a) he still has talent and b.) the Braves aren't gonna be bringing back Andrew Jones. It looks like the guy they have down in AAA (his name escapes me at this moment) is the front runner to replace Jones, but they could always use some depth.

 

Also, yeah, Anderson has no trade value in a sense he won't be the key piece in any deal, but as a throw in, some team wouldn't mind taking a chance with him. Hell, I bet once Anderson leaves here and talks to a different hitting coach he will rock. Seems to happen to us a lot.

Edited October 2, 2007 by BearSox